Opening more forums?

[Jorji-]

K scrolled back and read all the posts So in a shameless +1 postcount Im adding this

I have never been in a forum where a moderator doesnt eventually *looks cautiously at Cz* get out of control. While a FC employed mod has an obligation to the company a player may have more than a bad day.

I dont care how professional someone manages to be most of the time (not trying to flame anyone here just looking at myself) there will be something that makes you so annoyed that you do post something thats inappropriate in a heated moment (Got myself suspended recently for such a crime.. and Im generally level headed). With the added power of a moderator + a sense of "I no longer care" means that quite simply you have nothing to lose... why not ban/trash/run amok?

[Letah]

Jorji, these forums arent purely player to funcom, on the contrairy they are more player to playre with added funcom support. I notice a lot of players have that misconception. Especially in techforum a lot people get mad for not getting answers while they official direct communication with funcom always been e-mail.

Servivious, moderators make their little notes and edits behind {{ }} so Ithink they already made such a code

[_______________Bliqz]

Originally posted by Letah
Roleplaying and Moderation have little to do with eachother IMO, care to explain?

I was refering to the RP forum. Just that it would be nice for the people moderating the forums to be familiar with the background and content of the thread they are looking in on. You are a Doctor Professional, and make a great candidate to moderate that forum.

I feel that this program would benefit by having the moderator familiar with the topic, and familiar to the frequent posters.

[Jorji-]

Letah, why are they here then? We talk to each other sure, but isnt that why we play the game? Where else is FC going to talk to us? Were supposed to email them? that has to be alot more work than forums. If these are just social then why bother posting thoughtful comments that will affect the game? Nothing I say or do or discuss will matter.

I dont expect a reply to every post thats absurd. I do expect some information, I do expect FC to actually talk to us... that doesnt include cryptic answers that boil down to "wait"

And about the moderators editing stuff sure they add that little bit {{ }} but when they delete a thread they dont let you know why (Cz did say this will be looked into).. nor do they let you know if your suspended or banned, or for how long (yup speaking from bitter experinece after flipping out at getting stuff deleted that quoted FC and not a flame from anyone)

[Letah]

Can't comment about the last part, would be nice to get notified if a thread gets deleted yes, I agree. But thats a lil offtopic regarding this thread

I didnt say these forums were *only* players to players, they are both players to players and players to funcom and funcom to players.

Let me quote the describtion of the Techforum:

Technical Help
Look up technical problems and solutions from other players, and share your own. Please make sure to contact Customer Service about technical problems too.

Notice the player to player in it?

While you prefer something like:

Community Corner
Messages from Funcom to the Anarchy Online community. Also make sure to check the main site and the fan sites for community news.

This is funcom to player.

Profession boards are Player to Funcom, indirectly because they go via the professionals (we make it nicely looking small and without flames and deliver it ).

Role-Playing is clearly player 2 player. Market forums too. Tradeskillforum was player to player, pvp forum was too.

Suggestions was a clear Player to Funcom.

[______________Bigzar]

The old boards were nuked before I even knew they existed. I just started playing a few months ago. Many times I've had a question, comment, suggestion, rant, or informational post (etc etc etc) and had nowhere to put it.

It'd be great to have somwhere to post something non Enforcer specific about game mechanics, like initiatives or implants, etc.

Also a Notum Wars area would be great, specifically to help with the complete lack of documentation regarding the features in NW. I had one heck of a time trying to learn the most basic information about Towers. The only indirect methods I had were asking the in game channels, which was unfruitful at best (since most people don't seem use the zone/region-wide channels). I just had to Noob my way through several battles, asking Noob questions to anybody who would lend me a piece of their mind. I still probably lack many many pieces of critical information.

Boards needed, in no particular order:
General
Game Mechanics
Social
(WOR-K; The Conflict; etc)
Notum Wars Information (Documentation "supplement")
Feedback

---
Moderation: I worry about the kind of checks and balances that will be in place among player moderators/ARKs/Cz. I've seen message boards for other games turn decidedly poor due to unmoderated moderators. Some arse-kissing power monger would get in control and pretty much do anything they wanted unchecked. (deleting or editing threads and posts they didn't like for purely personal reasons; banning their in-game 'enemies' from the boards; punishing people who would speak out against the unfair moderation; etc).

I think there should be at least 2 player mods per forum, and definately MORE for the busier forums. I suspect 'General topics' will need 4 or more.

Records of actions taken? May be unneccessary if the moderators are well moderated. It could be useful if this board software can do it. Basically if Moderator edits(etc) a post, the post becomes flagged so that other moderators can see where something's going on. Possibly even have the pre-edited version saved but invisible to non-moderators. Instead of deleting posts or threads, the Moderators could "Hide" them from Joe User. Then ARKs or Cz would delete them if needed, or just leave them there hidden. You could even give moderators their own place for discussing moderator activities :P That might be a stretch though. The preceding paragraph relates to my previous experience moderating boards for my guild in another game, the software(s) in place allowed these options.

[Letah]

The actions of the moderators can already be back-checked because they actually move threads instead of delete and more is done to do that as well I was told by Cz, so I would not worry too much about roaming loose mods ruining everything, hehe, they would face the evil side of "Teh Red Cz Leet"

[Glarawyn]

The main problem with the old forums was there were too many.

Future Anarchy was easily lumped into test server...well maybe. Alot of really useful stuff seems to happen on the test server forum.

Funcom official was mostly pointless anyway.

Tradeskills, while useful, sat idle more often than not. And please, 3 seperate PvP related forums? Ugh. Most everything could be lumped under PvP and World of Rubi-Ka, possibly the two most missed forums, though PvP has moved into the profession forums as more people seem to be exploring outside their professsion now.

The player moderators sounds great. I'd say your first step there would be to ask your professionals for names, as they would at least have an idea about who is contributing discussions. Quitel likely that those contributing would be interested in moderating.

Go slow though. See how the player moderation works. Don't open new forums. If the player moderation works, then you can see about opening new forums.

You'll also have to create a moderator code of conduct or something of the sort. That'll be "fun" I'm sure.

[____________Jeremiah]

I think the opening of 'new' forums would actually smooth the main boards out a lot.

We are in desperate need of:

General Discussion
Sides (yes how about OT talk to each other here, Clan there, neutrals somewhere over there )
Social

These 5 really sping to mind.

And Letah couldnt do it, would take away to much of her posting time

And yes Id help

[Jorji-]

No you miss my point. Sorry if I am not too clear, its rather late at night.

The tone of the boards of late has been... *searches for a good term to describe it* frustrated and combative. Why? at the crux its because people fear that they have to scream and yell to be heard. That the changes being made are counter to what was previously promised from this game. People are confused and anxious.

The only thing that will counter this is listening and replying to us with a clear and transperant direction from FC not wait, not I havent the time to discuss this.

Will more boards improve that? No

Will player mods improve that? No

So all it is is appeasing a few with more areas to talk about things... while not a BAD thing (sure it will organise the place a little) its not going to cure the main problem.

My comment about the thread deletion and suspension is simply pointing out that if directly quoting FC gets you deleted (Im not going to say here what it was.. ill pm you letah) then its quite obvious that the system is flawed...

[Inocybe]

A roster of 2-4 sounds sensible. And especially practical for a general forum that might cover a wide range of subjects/issues that sees a lot of posting activity.

CZ, how about using a testbed method?

* Just open one general topic forum as a testbed for your team of 2-4 moderators. For starters, make it a mixed team composing of player moderators and ARKs. And then monitor the situation for a month to see how it works out, whether it needs fine-tuning or whatever.

** Say perhaps, bring back 'World of Rubika' - that must surely be one of the most missed topical forum section anyway and will attract a wide cross-section of the playerbase and active posters. And because it possibly covers a wide range of Rubi-Ka-related subject matter, it will make an excellent testbed platform for a multi-moderator team.


And oh ... taking this opportunity also to say "nice work" to the current moderators. They deserve a pat on the back for doing what they do out of public eye.

[pudds4tw]

I think we should look at new boards as a separate issue to FC feedback.

Forums primarily exist for the players. It is a place to share knowledge. Ask questions. Meet up with people you'd otherwise never have met in the game.

That FC sometimes posts is nice. Of course as players we do need feedback from FC and the forums are a good place for them to publisize their announcements or throw things up for debate, but I don't think it's their primary purpose.

The removal of most of the boards have created hoards of off topic posts that are perfectly interesting and constructive but simply dont fit into any of the "boxes" of the current forums.

That is, as I see, the main problem of the "new forums" and that is why we need more.

[__________SlickHenry]

Bump for resurrecting the game mechanics forum -- with player moderators. I don't see too many people getting hot under the collar about game mechanics anyway, and I just love geeking out on the effectiveness of dual-wields and stuff like that.

Cheers

[Nevver]

Cz, as I'm sure you know, moderating is a tough, tough job. I moderated for a while at AOVault (General Discussion)and those boards are pretty civil and it still got under my skin. I think for player moderators to be successful it's going to take a change in attitudes by the general posters and that change generally comes by way of heavy moderation for some time.

Blackout Grey is a long time moderator from AOVault who, in my opinion, is one of the chief reasons that those boards are so much more civil than they once were. The Vault boards used to be very firery when AO first came out but he, along with others, stuck to the TOS and moderated heavily for a while. Over time, the trolls and troublemakers eventually left and the resulting community is now a very friendly and helpful group.

So, what I'm saying is that player mods can work, but they need to have a thick skin and show that the board rules will be enforced. Obviously, player mods and the posters need to be clear on what the rules are and be as consistent as possible when applying them as inconsistency breeds confusion and animosity.

You should consider consulting with BoG and see what his oppions on the matter are since he is very experienced with just this kind of situation.

[_______________Nooki]

Voting no new forums.

The community should let Cz focus on his current repsonsibilites. It sounds like he doesn't have time to complete the list of items he has already. For example, the Engineers have been asking for new professionals since January.

Don't make new work for him.

[Darkbane]

I have to agree, most of the reason for these forums is for players to talk to players in an out-of-game environment.

The FC->Player and Player->FC bits are just additions we get as part of the package, and then its up to FC to decide how much.

The FC->Player bit is being handled pretty well these days, with AOVault's Dev Q&As and AOStratic's DevChats, and various interviews leading up to Shadowlands.

The Player->FC bit is trickier, as it takes up *much* more time if it's to be really done properly... So I wouldn't hold your breath on that.

The purpose of Cz proposing more forums and player moderators is to ensure *less* moderation by providing more suitable places to post (less off-topic stuff...) and to share the moderation load. It has *nothing* to do with player/FC communication (though Cz will correct me if I'm wrong I'm sure...)

[Servivious]

In responce to more recent posts here-->

Servivious, moderators make their little notes and edits behind {{ }} so Ithink they already made such a code

Yeah you can see mod changes, but what I was leaning towards is a system of ensuring mod edits state "mod edit" and providing a way of doing this that cannot be recreated by members. This way, you will know at a glance that a post has been mod altered, and you can be sure its not the original poster mucking about. Differing colours and fonts just make it a little more noticable is all. Included in this should always be an explination of why the mod felt an edit was required.

Oh, and btw -> Yay Me!! Letah mentioned my name!! I have been mentioned by one of the fourm Gods!! (um.. Goddesses... not sure about the PC overtones here....)

On the communication from Funcom issue) -->

As I understand it, the aim of opening more forums has little to do with communication from FC. I used to find that the info was not enough, but thanks mainly to Cz's mighty efforts, we now get timely, useful info and never do we recieve information that can be misinterpreted or taken as set in stone when changes to the game plan (no pun lol) happen hour by hour.

The aim, as I understand it, is to make forums more usable by allowing more space to post relevent threads in the right place. Take the Test board for example - a suggestions thread has been rooted to the top, but 1 in 3 posts below are suggestions. People don't like posing in a thread because it covers too many issues and they dont feel they will get the attention the want for their idea. So you end up with the mods closing threads all over the place.

Player to player communication is in need of expansion, and this is the best place for it. However, I was getting sick of the perma-negativity coming out, which is a big part of the decision to nerf the old forum system. The introduction of player mods will help this somewhat, though if the player base is unhappy, that will still show. The bottom line is that people need to learn that if you have something to say to FC, you need to email them. I get replies to my infrequent emails very quickly on the whole.

On the "postal moderators" theme -->

A few boards that I've mod'd for have set up some pretty rigid rules on what can be done, and when. As Leetah said, deleted threads are not actually deleted, they are moved to a bord that only mods/admins can see, so if a mod "deletes" threads that do not require it, the admins will see it.

I would suggest that mods can make changes to visable boards, but have no affect on invisible boards. For example, they can edit a post, but admins will be able to see the original text (is that possible on VBulleten? --> It was on a perl forum I ran a while ago..). Mods should not have the power to ban or suspend posters, rather they should be able to take issues to the admins with a "heres what they've posted, what do you think" type system. I also feel that moved threads should include a PM to the poster / thread starter explaining that their thread has been removed from public view, and why. This will go a long way to cutting down the anger and frustration of posters who feel that legitimate threads are being removed for 'political' reasons. I feel almost certain that these actions are taken for sound reasons - not because FC can't take a little criticism, or because they have a vendetta against you.


I do like the idea of opening a single test forum with a team of player mods - it will allow you to see how it works, and where control lines need to be drawn.

[Cz]

A few quick comments while I read each post thoroughly...

Originally posted by Gestava
Perhaps 2-3 moderators pr forum. One of these could be an Ark...

Sounds like a good idea to me, though I doubt we need an ARK per forum. Maybe one per 3-4 forums? I'll bring the idea up with the ARKs.

Originally posted by Lillemjau
...a social forum, like World of Rubi-Ka

Uhm... that was never intended as a social forum. People just converted it to one due to our lack of ability to check it for off-topic posts.

Originally posted by Naraya
what happens when a player moderater snaps

I do have several precautions in such cases, the main one being moderators' inability to delete posts or threads. They can only move them between forums, and a "deletion" is done by moving posts / threads to a hidden forum.

Some damage can always be caused by a moderator gone bad, but unless he spends a lot of time on it (editing single posts to delete their content) he won't do much or irreversible damage.

Originally posted by Darkbane
Should the moderators of a given forum be known?

I would say yes. If not, the moderator would need to build the respect and authoroty he needs from nothing. Any attacks on a moderator breaks several guidelines, and should be handled very strictly, imo.

Originally posted by WarGear
If the arks help handle the boards does that mean the online manual will come upto date ?

I can't promise anything, but any extra time I can free up will be spent on other tasks, and updating the manual is one of the things I'd love to start on. It's a big task though.

Originally posted by Beartwo
Maybe the reason you end up catching so much flak is that FC has a very long history of ignoring the requests/fixes suggested by players?

Somebody once said people whined and flamed because they had tried being constructive, and that didn't work. Well, whining and flaming doesn't work either, so why do people continue doing that? It's another discussion though. Consider the question rhetoric.

Originally posted by Isgrimnur
Anyways, I would suggest if you do this, start small, with perhaps 2 "test" forums to see how it goes...

Yes, staging it is very likely to happen. One or two forums at a time, to see how it works out.

Originally posted by Shay'a'chern
Also, I was wondering if we could have the time allowed between posts to be shortened to thirty seconds instead of sixty.

We have such a limit? Gee, guess we admins have priveleges. Did you know I can have unlimited private messages too?

I'll look into it.

Originally posted by Thyrra
if you do this, please make sure that there is a clear, no shame, way of people to tone down their moderator involvement as their morale drops due to the nature of the work or their real life demands more of their time.

Very good point. Noted.

Originally posted by Borrace
make those player moderated, and shift funcom's attention to monitor the new "World of Rubi-Ka" forum to make sure it doesn't get out of hand.

Actually, I was hpoing on having my personal attention away from the moderation completely, but we'll see how that works out. Banning (permanent) and admin stuff will still have to be done by me, though even suspensions (temporary) can be done by moderators.

Originally posted by Jorji
3. Making more forums wont increase the communication, wont make more moderators, wont have devs looking at the problems/issues/ideas

I don't understand your view, honestly. I can understand that you (and possibly others) see no value whotsoever in having a place to hang out and chat without having Funcom participating all the time.

But I do not at all understand how you can say I shouldn't bother for all the other people who do want these forums.

Originally posted by Chemi
... then their use is effectively no more than adding chat channels to an IRC server. If I want to chat, I'll go in-game and do it directly.

Same here as to Jorji. What about all those people who do want those extra IRC channels?

Originally posted by Bliqz
I feel that this program would benefit by having the moderator familiar with the topic, and familiar to the frequent posters.

Player moderators would be appointed on a "per forum" level, I'm sure. No global moderation access. Roleplayers should have the RP forum, Doctors the Doctor forum, etc.

Originally posted by Jorji
Letah, why are they here then?

They're not required to. They don't really have time. They're simply here because they care a damn lot.

Originally posted by Glarawyn
You'll also have to create a moderator code of conduct or something of the sort. That'll be "fun" I'm sure.

Originally posted by Jorji
So all it is is appeasing a few with more areas to talk about things... while not a BAD thing (sure it will organise the place a little) its not going to cure the main problem.

I think it's simply a matter of two entirely different topics. The topic in this thread is giving the community a more diverse gathering place, while you're moving into working on increasing and improving information from Funcom to players.

Can we please take the latter discussion aside from this one? While I do understand you really want one, let's take one issue at a time, please.

Originally posted by Gestava
I think we should look at new boards as a separate issue to FC feedback.

Exactly. You beat me to it.

Originally posted by Nevver
You should consider consulting with BoG and see what his oppions on the matter are since he is very experienced with just this kind of situation.

Good idea. I'll keep it in mind.

Originally posted by Nooki
The community should let Cz focus on his current repsonsibilites.

One of those responsibilities (one of the top ones too) is moderating these forums, and with the off-topic posting and all it's quite a time-consuming one. Getting a player moderation system running, and having more smooth running forums would help me quite a bit.

Originally posted by Darkbane
The purpose of Cz proposing more forums and player moderators is to ensure *less* moderation by providing more suitable places to post (less off-topic stuff...) and to share the moderation load.

Uhm, yea, one more you guys beat me to.

[Cz]

Let's see now. There were a few things I wanted to take in an own reply...

What forums to reopen?
If (have to start with that ) we decide to open more forums, I already have a list of what order I see them coming in. I might start a thread on that later, but for now I'll just note what forums people seem to miss.

I do not want a "General" forum though. We used to have that, a long time ago, and it's extremely tough to moderate. Maybe a very "wide" topic, but some restrictions is needed.

Professionals as moderators
They would be as eligible as anybody else, but I won't set them as full moderators automatically. Two reasons:
1. Some of them might not like it. They didn't sign up for being moderators, after all.
2. Others might not like it. The Professionals were (s)elected for profession knowledge, and were never evaluated as moderators.

Letah
She has 5k+ posts, Isgrimnur, not only 4k+.

---

Gonna drop by the Professionals forum now, then go visit a friend and watch some football (European style). I'll check by again tomorrow.

[_______________Nooki]

Maybe I wasn't clear or maybe I misunderstood.

I want you to have moderators and all the help you can get for the existing forums.

But additional adding forums to the ones we now have require more admin time from you, no matter how many ARKs or moderators are involved. More training, answering complaints about moderator conduct, more forums for possible banning (which only you can do), etc.

You are the best link we have between players and Funcom, and this communication channel needs help. I vote you spend your time on this, not supervising some new project.