Thread: Note from Game Director: Removing Ingots

  1. #261
    Effort should not always mean time spent. People are being rewarded for who can sit on there but the most. I rather be rewarded by player skill. If I can take down a mob because I know what I am doing I should get something from it not well good job but noone really cares as a reward for it. I don't view player skill just sitting in one spot again and again. If an item is supposed to be rare than make it rare make it hard to get each time someone wants it.

    I want my ability of knowledge and memory test. My ability to strategy tested and rewarded. Something that I have to solve puzzles or actually be immersed in the game not sit there and crack a rock and come back home and pray I got something to show for it. I spend my normal life doing this half the time why should my entertainment be this as well.

    Yet these days that seems rarely the case. I rather have fun attempting to get an item and know that if I kill the mob that has that I will get it to drop. Killing a boss a 100 seems anti climatic. I rather die 100 times trying to kill the mob but have the mob drop what I need every time than have to sit there and kill the mob again and again. That is my point.

    Why should a boss not be just that boss. Yet they are not usually treated as such in terms of drop rates or any kinds of rewards. If it takes 7 months to get an item it better make you God like at the level its intended for. If it doesn't then seems to be just seems rediculus. If the item is rare truly and intended by FC to be rare then only say 5 to 10 people per server could get this item per year.

    If not then its not truly rare but uncommon. A truly rare item should be coveted and not seen every day yet even the items that is revered as rare really are more uncommon atleast its seen that way in the high level community. If you can show how able you are to sit in one spot for hundreds of hours to get one item I should be able to show my ability to play and beat down a mob and get rewarded for that.

    Yet reward is left to time spent and chance not player skill. This is probably why games like GW has people interested because atleast you get rewarded for knowing some strategy or for figuring out good combinations and things. MMO's depend too much on chance for reward. A majority of the time 90% of your time is wasted on the failed attempt of going after an item. While some items should be worth this effort why should that later part of the game that of which all the expansions content should be all rare item drops?

    Think about this. What would you consider to be a common armor that anyone at lvl 215+ can get that should be fairly easy to get but yet be useful? The item can't be something easy to get at lvl 200 it would have to be something thats designed for use at lvl 215+? Tier 3 is still not common common. There really isn't items that you can get for varying levels alot of professions have gaps in items. There are items you get on at lvl 170 and wear them till your 210 or from the totw till you hit 200. This is where the issues of the game arise.

    There really isn't a diverse selection of common but yet useful, uncommon, rare, and ultra rare items. It typically goes vendor food, buff items, social wear, uncommon, rare and uber rare. The uncommon content at one point and still is a hard to get and rare item to aquire. So there is this big gap where you either have the goods or you don't. This becomes pretty evident once you hit 215+.

  2. #262
    Quote Originally Posted by Shaoleet
    {Edited by bekrowe: not linking to a site which is violating the EULA would be good}
    Current prices:
    Credits 1,000Million $289.99
    Credits 500Million $150.99
    Credits 250Million $77.99
    Credits 100Million $31.99
    Credits 50Million $18.99

    And yes, this company is in business for several years, obviously tolerated by Funcom.
    NB, Creds for RK1 seem to be sold out at the moment... but they even buy credits from normal players. Anyone in need of some bucks?
    LOL, that's just sick.

    whether ingot nerf will affect proffesional guys like this I don't know, make everything ingame worth 1 cred to a vendor, now that would get them out of AO, but not all the other games the make a living from.

    peace
    cal2
    Last edited by Bekrowe; Oct 5th, 2005 at 07:24:25.
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  3. #263
    yes ! more beggers
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  4. #264
    Quote Originally Posted by Neco
    Fr00bs can't afford anything I sell in my shop
    What you do is irrelevant, since not only hardcore players like you pay for the expansions. Also you clearly didn't read what I worte from the start, I said froobs and non-AI owning players. Despite popular beliefs amongs many players (obviously), SL and AI isn't the same expansion.

    and I wouldn't buy anything a fr00b would put in his shop.
    Well, that was the point. Read what I wrote originally once again. The point was that froobs and Sl-only owners get acees to the shops to buy from them. Them being able to sell is definitely not something to consider, since they haven't payed for that content. Being able to own a shop in a player city is an AI feature. But give me ONE logical and reasonable reason to why being able to purchase from player shops should be an AI feature. You can't, cause there is none.

    And if we should resolve to egoistic arguments, well... I want more potential buyers to my shop, because I have paid for AI and therefore also the shops. Easy as that.
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  5. #265
    Quote Originally Posted by Regidoc
    I had hundreds of millions of creds? HAHAHAHAHA. You do jest. Sure, was I over 150 by that time ( I can't remember, was over two years ago now) but who said I was some person that was rich during that launch? You assumed I was rolling in the dough because I have several high level characters on my account. Sure, I'm well off now, because I've worked for it. Want to know how I made my first 50 Mil, the most I had EVER had at one time for a very long while? I blitzed nanos, weapons and armor for people. As a doc! I filled orders for people that wanted a long list of nanos. And this happened at least a year after SL launch. I didn't use ingots to make my money. I hardly ventured into SL after it launched, still don't actually unless I'm farming patterns for symbiants. Which is also something else I do to make money.

    yes.. i know you cant fully read someones post and undestand what they said. would you like to try it again?

    fyi, i never even checked your characters.. i dont even know what lvl(s) you are now.

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  6. #266
    Quote Originally Posted by Neco
    Nope, not elitist, just 99% true. I was a fr00b too.
    True because of the one fact that noone would ever put anything worthwhile for froobs to buy.

    There's plenty of useful things a froob could purchase from a player shop. A carb armor set. A mantis armor set. VTE. Stalker Helmet. In fact, anything blitzable from any RK mission or dungeon or tradeskillable.

    Froobs play the game on the exact same premises as AO players did pre-expansions, and they could still easilly gather millions of credits.

    And with ingots gone in the near future, prices will lower and balance, probably making it more reasonable even for some of the more clever froobs to buy some good gear.

    Stop thinking in past tense, and think about the possibilities from a wider perspective.



    My ONE question to the people arguing against froobs and non-Ai owners being potentially able to purchase stuff from AI markets:

    What does it hurt?
    Last edited by Labelslave; Oct 4th, 2005 at 22:04:40.
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  7. #267
    BFT!

    ignots have never been a major sorce of income, just a pleasant surprize. I have made far more money with other methods (that i will not mention here lest they get nerfed)

    Buy Buy Good ridance...

    is there a replacement junk lewt to collect off our much beloved hecklers?
    ----------------------
    second edit after reading all the quotes.

    1. i have made most of my money on monsterparts / pearls / pb pieces / mission lewt. Most times when i am on a team i am the onlyone lewtwhoring. if you need money you can still "farm"
    2. my most recent farming exercise has been implants, i make 4-5 M per week off a few mishes.
    3. deflation? perhaps, but have you seen the prices for farmed ai armor? that doesnt seem to be deflating much.



    ANi.
    Last edited by Animosity; Oct 4th, 2005 at 23:31:31.
    PLEASE, give use a simple YES or no answer as to whether or not the CoH chests can be opened

  8. #268
    Quote Originally Posted by Labelslave
    What you do is irrelevant, since not only hardcore players like you pay for the expansions. Also you clearly didn't read what I worte from the start, I said froobs and non-AI owning players. Despite popular beliefs amongs many players (obviously), SL and AI isn't the same expansion.



    Well, that was the point. Read what I wrote originally once again. The point was that froobs and Sl-only owners get acees to the shops to buy from them. Them being able to sell is definitely not something to consider, since they haven't payed for that content. Being able to own a shop in a player city is an AI feature. But give me ONE logical and reasonable reason to why being able to purchase from player shops should be an AI feature. You can't, cause there is none.

    And if we should resolve to egoistic arguments, well... I want more potential buyers to my shop, because I have paid for AI and therefore also the shops. Easy as that.
    You are right, I didn't read your post very clearly. I dont' think that those that don't have AI should have shops. But I can see the value in SL owners being able to search and purchase from the shops. Still, I don't think FC should reward fr00bs anymore than they already do.
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  9. #269
    Quote Originally Posted by shadowgod
    yes.. i know you cant fully read someones post and undestand what they said. would you like to try it again?

    fyi, i never even checked your characters.. i dont even know what lvl(s) you are now.
    Yes, I'm aware if the point that you were trying to get across. There were money sinks for the SL nanos, jobe armor (not tier since that is actually free), the healing stims, etc. But, the income people were getting from ingots made those "money sinks" useless, as people tended to make way more money from ingots than they had to spend on these items.

    But, I chose to address your comment about me without editing out the remaining stuff. Also, the entire post was not directed solely to you, as there was content in it that you had not even mentioned.
    Last edited by Regidoc; Oct 4th, 2005 at 22:05:01.
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  10. #270
    sweet
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  11. #271
    Quote Originally Posted by Escritores
    How did lowbies get creds before SL? *ding ding*
    How did lowbies buy Jobe armor and SL nanos before SL? *ding ding*

    Bad move for new players but it was probably needed if e-bay farmers in Ely were such a pain.
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  12. #272
    Quote Originally Posted by Shaoleet
    {Edited by bekrowe: not linking to a site which is violating the EULA would be good}
    Current prices:
    Credits 1,000Million $289.99
    Credits 500Million $150.99
    Credits 250Million $77.99
    Credits 100Million $31.99
    Credits 50Million $18.99

    And yes, this company is in business for several years, obviously tolerated by Funcom.
    NB, Creds for RK1 seem to be sold out at the moment... but they even buy credits from normal players. Anyone in need of some bucks?
    I do wish FC would put some effort into interfering with outfits like this; it wouldn't take tooo much work to "sting" and ban enough of their accounts to make it not worth their while any more.
    Last edited by Bekrowe; Oct 5th, 2005 at 07:25:23.

  13. #273
    Now whats interesting about this is that "in reality" the inflation on prices would be much worse if there wasnt a speciality in this particular type of MMO: u have an inflation of items, because they never leave the game. The inflation of items is sort of hardcoded into the game, because you dont have decay on items like in other games (or real life for that matter), so unless theres a constant supply of new players who start all over again prices will deflate. Good example: Albrecht Heavy Tank Armors and such :P Everyone has like dime a dozens sitting in their bank. So basically you need new money pouring in to balance it out. Which will eventually lead to the point that most items are worth nothing and currency is worth nothing either =) You can look at it the way you want, Alien bots will go down in relative worth immensily independant on how much money is in the game, because they are easy to get (sort of), people get them and they never leave the game. Now the point about this is, inflation would be much worse if there wasnt an inflation of items on the other side. People who want a "balanced" economy in this type of game are plain stupid. It will never work, because the basic mechanics (as they work in real life) dont apply, yet people behave as if they would. Goods in the real world get consumed they dont last forever. Therefore the market rules dont really apply and you can never find a "balance".

  14. #274
    Good move FC!

    This should help reduce inflation a bit more. It dropped some after the ingot price nerf but needs to come down further.

    As to alternate ways of making money, I hope all those people who claim to make their money by selling AI city loot or blitzing realize they aren't really 'making' credits. They are just moving wealth to themselves from other chars and the amount they can collect in this fashion will also drop in time due to the removal of ingots. The -only- true sources of income in the game are mission reward credits and selling stuff to terminals. This, and this alone, are the source of 100% of the credits in-game. FC just removed a lucrative terminal-sell item.

    The eBay sellers will raise prices but not collect any more real world cash than they do now. That could only happen if the source of real money was unlimited, which it is not. A few rich players may continue to buy the same quantity of credits at the increased prices but at the same time many other players will stop buying credits altogether. As well, if by removing the ingots, FC forces the farmers to expend exponentially more effort (read: no more unattended farming scripts) they will stat to move off to more fertile grounds that yield a better reward/effort ratio than AO.

    As an aside, one does wonder how much this sudden move is related to the fact that the number of pages that come up on eBay for 'Anarchy Online' jumped from 2-3 pages to 10 in the last week....

  15. #275
    I love it, hopefully the economy will flatten out a little bit.

    As for all the whiners that wonder how to get credits, work for it maybe? I've self-funded multiple characters without having much issues. Sure, I can't get the top of the line stuff right off the bat, I can't twink like it's going out of style, and sometimes I'm broke, but hey, so what? It's a game. Not a race to get to level 220 the quickest, with the most uberest gear imaginable.

    So it takes a bit longer to get into some gear. So what? Some of you make it sound like your only goal is to crunch out as many 220's with uber gear as you can. I figure that's more like a real dayjob than working for your creds...

  16. #276
    Good riddance!
    I'm glad and sad at the same time.
    Two years there's a large community who's asking for it, or at least to dissociate ingots from the great xp source that hecklers were. But show Fc the threat of sweatshop farmers, and "This change was initially scheduled for a later patch. It was pushed forward due to the recently increasing problem with external parties".

    Well better late than never anyway.
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  17. #277

    Thumbs up

    This definitely has my thumbs up...players have been ruining the economy by senselessly and incessantly farming ingots, and selling them for credits, since the release of SL. Not only that, but in the process, their greed has sometimes led them to grief lower level players without even a thought of those people's game enjoyment!

    For all those people who say "how are we supposed to make money?" and "how are we supposed to pay for all of those expensive items that we need?" then have a lesson in economics: if there is less currency, and the same supply and demand, then prices will drop. It's called deflation, and rarely has it happened in real life in modern times, but it's possible.

    The effects won't be immediate because of the credits already in the game that aren't sunk into the system but are traded among players, but I guarantee that within the next 6 months (if there is no other outrageous way of making money introduced in a patch or in Lost Eden) you'll see prices dropping considerably, making the economy more stable for players who don't have $$$ to spend on ebay credits or the time needed to farm huge amounts of credits to pay for the items they need (those who don't ingot farm I mean). Especially since you know that Lost Eden, just like AI, is going to in some way be a credit sink.
    It's a balance that this game has needed for a long time in my opinion.
    Last edited by Hollowburn; Oct 4th, 2005 at 22:19:38.
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  18. #278
    Quote Originally Posted by Zorro
    How did lowbies buy Jobe armor and SL nanos before SL? *ding ding*

    Bad move for new players but it was probably needed if e-bay farmers in Ely were such a pain.
    Yeah Jobe armor and SL nanos are the only thing lowbies need money for... Before SL there was nothing at all to buy your right...
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  19. #279
    Quote Originally Posted by lunette
    Are you replacing ingots with anything? A few half decent weapons or armor parts perhaps?
    Indeed. How are you supposed to make money in the shadowlands anyway? If I loot everything in a single team mission I might walk away with 1-3 million, which isn't horrible, but at high levels (I'm at 217) it's not great either. If everyone in the team is looting, that's 160,000(ish) to 500,000.

    With a team looting stuff, I'd need to do 20 Shadowlands missions to earn enough credits to buy just one of my Shadowlands nanos. At least at this point I'll be able to buy that nano before I level to 218.

    Missions used to generate enough credits to survive, and some time blitzing some specific Ql200+ items was enough to get yourself the high end gear. But now days missions don't generate enough money to keep pace with the cost of items in game, such as Jobe Armors, Shadowlands Nanos, etc. And for many of these items, there is no alternative than shoving your credits into the vendors.
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  20. #280
    Quote Originally Posted by screwfast
    Now whats interesting about this is that "in reality" the inflation on prices would be much worse if there wasnt a speciality in this particular type of MMO: u have an inflation of items, because they never leave the game. The inflation of items is sort of hardcoded into the game, because you dont have decay on items like in other games (or real life for that matter), so unless theres a constant supply of new players who start all over again prices will deflate. Good example: Albrecht Heavy Tank Armors and such :P Everyone has like dime a dozens sitting in their bank. So basically you need new money pouring in to balance it out. Which will eventually lead to the point that most items are worth nothing and currency is worth nothing either =) You can look at it the way you want, Alien bots will go down in relative worth immensily independant on how much money is in the game, because they are easy to get (sort of), people get them and they never leave the game. Now the point about this is, inflation would be much worse if there wasnt an inflation of items on the other side. People who want a "balanced" economy in this type of game are plain stupid. It will never work, because the basic mechanics (as they work in real life) dont apply, yet people behave as if they would. Goods in the real world get consumed they dont last forever. Therefore the market rules dont really apply and you can never find a "balance".
    But quite a few items DO leave the game, when players quit and don't pass on their gear. No way to know how this balances against new items entering the game. Only FC has the tools to really monitor the economy, and they aren't publishing.

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