Thread: Note from Game Director: Removing Ingots

  1. #381
    Quote Originally Posted by Trussel
    So make awesome items average, you say? If everyone got a free Dchest at character creation (or even make it blitzable), it would also solve this issue, but then it'd be no different than chilled plastisteel... its an amazing (and amazingly overpriced) item because its better than the average, better than the most available. Making it more available would only reduce the enjoyment of actually aquiring said item. Took me nearly three years to get mine, and it was a happy day indeed.

    I get monster parts all the time, cant say I get a whole lot of excitement looting one of those after I was higher than lvl 10. You get the idea, making great gear more common takes away part of what makes it great.
    Stop exagerating my comment please.. I said 'not too big a increase in drop rate' ie only a SLIGHT increase. that does NOT mean Dchest at char gen. Maybe I wasn't being specific enough beacue I wasn't even thinking of anywhere near doubling the drop rate, just increasing a bit to help reduce the price.

    And yes, do agree with people who say they don't want everyone looking like clones but AO has many more players these days due to froob accounts (I started as a froob and upgraded just like many I know). more players means that certain items will become even more sort after and the drop rate should be adjusted SLIGHTLY to account for that increase in demand.

  2. #382

    On the farming issue

    Personally i think most people get it all wrong when they say punish the sellers of FC content. If i was some chinese dude earning maybe 100 $ a month i probably would sell some virtual junk to some western retard who has too much money too :P Its pretty much like blaming prostitutes for prostitution, in my opinion the buyers of that stuff need to be punished foremost, because its a buyers market. The buyer of all people violates the EULA not some dude who sets up a shop in tawain or something, who has never accepted the EULA and where probably all the law constructs you post dont apply anyways.
    You cant punish a seller of virtual content, because most likely its not even against the law of the resident or company. Set up a company in the caribian islands, buy some server in russia, yeah, what again was your laywer exactly going to do assuming he can even get a fax number after like 6 month research? ;P The only way to fix this is to punish buyers, and its the MMO companies job to either develop mechanics so that they can do just that, or they have to live with it (thats what FC and pretty much every economical thinking person would do).

  3. #383
    Quote Originally Posted by screwfast
    The buyer of all people violates the EULA not some dude who sets up a shop in tawain or something, who has never accepted the EULA and where probably all the law constructs you post dont apply anyways.
    You cant punish a seller of virtual content, because most likely its not even against the law of the resident or company.
    It is against the EULA to sell ingame items, that is a legally binding agrement. therefor anyone selling is breaking the law, and anyone supporting or aiding them in their actions (those that sell online who aren't players themselves) are aiding illegal behaviour which is also illegally (strange that)
    The EULA states that anything and everything AO is based on new york law at all times. anyone who agrees to the EULA agrees to following new york laws in ALL respects concerning AO regardless of what their own laws states.

    ANYONE dealing in AO items can be dealt with under new york law, whether it's as a contract breaker or someone aiding a contract breaker. easy

  4. #384
    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkbane_rk2
    It is against the EULA to sell ingame items, that is a legally binding agrement. therefor anyone selling is breaking the law, and anyone supporting or aiding them in their actions (those that sell online who aren't players themselves) are aiding illegal behaviour which is also illegally (strange that)
    The EULA states that anything and everything AO is based on new york law at all times. anyone who agrees to the EULA agrees to following new york laws in ALL respects concerning AO regardless of what their own laws states.

    ANYONE dealing in AO items can be dealt with under new york law, whether it's as a contract breaker or someone aiding a contract breaker. easy

    You see an EULA isnt necessarily binding in all countries. It may be void at all, or some passages may it make void. For example in germany large quantities of Microsofts EULA are void, because they are in conflict with national law. An EULA is not law, its basically a contract. A contract may be void for a lot of reasons, maybe because its against national law, or maybe national law doesnt care. The EULA may say that new york law applies, but national law may disagree. For example Gays get shot in Iran, but just because a person may be gay in the USA he isnt delivered to Iran because he has violated their law. It may be hard to understand for some US people who think they are the center of the world, but that also works the other way around. Just because you violate US law it doesnt mean they have to apply to you. Ever hard of companies in the Carabian who violate US law on a daily basis? It doesnt matter, they dont apply to them, national law covers their ass.

    Now considering the third party thing "encouraring EULA violation" thats utter bull****. There may be a law construct in the US that covers this, but let me reassure you in most other countries a contract who is only accepted by 2 people only binds 2 people to it, it doesnt apply at all to third parties.

  5. #385
    Ok, farming in Ely wasn't just down to Ebayers, every lazy high lvl toon and their dog were there. We all blamed the ebayers as they were the most noticeable (due in no small fact to being logged on 24/7). But simply tackling the ebay issue head on would not have solved Ely, it would have just replaced Ebay farmers with in game farmers.
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  6. #386
    Quote Originally Posted by screwfast
    You see an EULA isnt necessarily binding in all countries. It may be void at all, or some passages may it make void. For example in germany large quantities of Microsofts EULA are void, because they are in conflict with national law. An EULA is not law, its basically a contract. A contract may be void for a lot of reasons, maybe because its against national law, or maybe national law doesnt care. The EULA may say that new york law applies, but national law may disagree. For example Gays get shot in Iran, but just because a person may be gay in the USA he isnt delivered to Iran because he has violated their law. It may be hard to understand for some US people who think they are the center of the world, but that also works the other way around. Just because you violate US law it doesnt mean they have to apply to you. Ever hard of companies in the Carabian who violate US law on a daily basis? It doesnt matter, they dont apply to them, national law covers their ass.

    Now considering the third party thing "encouraring EULA violation" thats utter bull****. There may be a law construct in the US that covers this, but let me reassure you in most other countries a contract who is only accepted by 2 people only binds 2 people to it, it doesnt apply at all to third parties.

    U are probably correct about this. But on the other hand does FC need any law on their side to cancel an account?
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  7. #387
    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkbane_rk2
    It is against the EULA to sell ingame items, that is a legally binding agrement. therefor anyone selling is breaking the law, and anyone supporting or aiding them in their actions (those that sell online who aren't players themselves) are aiding illegal behaviour which is also illegally (strange that)
    The EULA states that anything and everything AO is based on new york law at all times. anyone who agrees to the EULA agrees to following new york laws in ALL respects concerning AO regardless of what their own laws states.

    ANYONE dealing in AO items can be dealt with under new york law, whether it's as a contract breaker or someone aiding a contract breaker. easy
    Very untrue.. EULA doesn't govern all countries. Like stated above, they could be voided due to law conflicts..

    This I'm not 100% sure about: but I think a 3rd party person who's never seen the EULA could market and sell your stuff online and not be punishable by law.. however the owner of the account may be at that point. And Fc has the right to close accounts that are breaking the EULA.. but that doesn't mean that they can punish them through the extent of the law.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silirrion View Post
    We wouldn't make the nano in the first place if we didn't feel that it would be useful and at the very least a decent addition to any given professions nano listing.
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  8. #388
    EULA is a formality really. If FC wants to ban your stuff, they can, for whatever reason they want. It's their choice if they want to lose a paying account or not. The EULA is there to protect them, not you. If you get banned, your legal recourse is ....
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  9. #389
    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkbane_rk2
    That's because there are better ways of doing it. FC have attacked the symptom not the problem. the problem is buying/selling online (eg ebay) THAT is what has to be stopped not the way people make the creds in the first place. stop the selling and the farming will stop too.

    But it's probably cheaper to change a handful of lines of code to remove an item than it is to pay a lawyer to deal with ebay/ online sellers etc

    Other games have managed to fix the ingame enconomy by stopping out of game buying/ seliing WITHOUT changing a single thing ingame. why can't FC??
    ebaying of stuff has been around long before SL. its a given constant. whether its true or not (FC believes it to be true) that ingots are the cause of not only greiving problems in ely, but of economic problems. SL did accelerate alot of price problems. i was still rather low when SL came out, and was totally pissed about all these high prices. hence why i try to always avoid SL. which of course was a repeated trend with AI.


    now.. as for people saying prices have been dropping...

    We get to learn a couple new things about economics: Market Saturation (of product), and Peoples willingness to purchase at a certain amount.

    if the market is saturated with a product, then typically this will cause their price to drop due to being so common. now, i'm not sure if this is the case for some items. i never check markets. if i want/need something i'll either get it myself or talk to someone who might have one/help me.

    the other is the price point. the point at which people are still willing to purchase a product while still getting more/repeat customers.

    there gets a point with people that they will just refuse to buy a product if it gets too high. or if they get to the point they realize an item shouldnt be this high. essentially "people vote with their wallet". if not enough people are buying, and inventory isnt getting turned around fast enough, then they will have to start reducing prices to find out where the new price point is.

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  10. #390
    Quote Originally Posted by shadowgod
    if the market is saturated with a product, then typically this will cause their price to drop due to being so common. now, i'm not sure if this is the case for some items. i never check markets. if i want/need something i'll either get it myself or talk to someone who might have one/help me.
    Yeah thats true, goes hand-in-hand with a item's usefullness too.. once the next best armor is patched into some mob.. the armor that used to be the best looses value. Good example I think are those VTE, used to go for 40 mil when they came out.. much lower now though because there are beast/alien/choosen armors that are waaay better.. so VTEs are more common on twinks than sought by mains like they used to be.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silirrion View Post
    We wouldn't make the nano in the first place if we didn't feel that it would be useful and at the very least a decent addition to any given professions nano listing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Abalz
    LOL

  11. #391

    upkeep

    i believe that lowered upkeep would help many.
    at least until economy get stabilized.
    after ingot nerf i think many had a hard time to pay upkeep.

  12. #392

  13. #393
    Yay!
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  14. #394
    It's about time you shut the stable door.

    Now get the binoculars, we've got a missing horse to look for.

  15. #395
    Quote Originally Posted by screwfast
    Personally i think most people get it all wrong when they say punish the sellers of FC content. If i was some chinese dude earning maybe 100 $ a month i probably would sell some virtual junk to some western retard who has too much money too .
    It's not 100$ a month, i hear there are players making 3 bilions per week, 100 mils/30 $ , seller share 10-20 $ , you have a solid 10-15 per 100 mils. that's 300-450 per week.
    Of course this are the upgraded alien farmers and spot campers not 24/7 ely farmers, those are the newbs
    FC has a lot to do to purge AO of e-bayers or at least narow there activities.

  16. #396
    OK...for all the whiners(waa I cant make any money now) this is for you...

    Last night I logged in with my adv. Teamed with 5 other ppl and we all went to diff zones to roll missions. This resulted in all of us getting 9 team missions just for our selves.

    Now, for the sake of simplicity, I rolled full easy team missions in bs(RK missions).

    took me an hour and a half to finish all 9 missions killing everything inside and looting chests.

    I ended up with 26 and a half bags of loot. a good chunk was non rollable dyna/boss drop only nanos. Also got several pieces of buffing armour(suteck/nova/kersh)(i know my spelling sucks). and as a bonus a div 9 and a x-3.

    and as an added bonus i got 4 CRU's totalling 65%(one of my teammates got 183% worth of CRU's doing his missions but he is a higher lvl than me so maybe that had a factor)

    sold all the junk loot for a total of 11.4 mill. have about 19 dyna/boss nanos that i will be selling for about 1 mill each. and all the buffing armour that i havent priced yet.

    Grand total for an hour and a half of killing...17+ mill in imediate cash(from junk loot, creds from dead mobs and mission rewards)...probally another 20+ mill after the guns, buffing armour and special nanos.
    not selling CRU's(keeping those for org raids..so loot from that could be in the millions as well) but those would bring in 5-7 mill as well

    again, these were full easy missions...all grey mobs...easy as heck to kill...no danger at all...fast from mission to mission since they were all in City of Home.

    Point is...it aint that hard to make money. even naked with no armour or implants these missions would have been cake.

    So stop your whining about how you cant make cred after ingots are gone and try something new for a change. an hour and a half for 35+ mill, no danger and fast killing is not much. even the casual gamer can do it.

  17. #397
    Quote Originally Posted by Mikura
    OK...for all the whiners(waa I cant make any money now) this is for you...

    Last night I logged in with my adv. Teamed with 5 other ppl and we all went to diff zones to roll missions. This resulted in all of us getting 9 team missions just for our selves.

    Now, for the sake of simplicity, I rolled full easy team missions in bs(RK missions).

    took me an hour and a half to finish all 9 missions killing everything inside and looting chests.

    I ended up with 26 and a half bags of loot. a good chunk was non rollable dyna/boss drop only nanos. Also got several pieces of buffing armour(suteck/nova/kersh)(i know my spelling sucks). and as a bonus a div 9 and a x-3.

    and as an added bonus i got 4 CRU's totalling 65%(one of my teammates got 183% worth of CRU's doing his missions but he is a higher lvl than me so maybe that had a factor)

    sold all the junk loot for a total of 11.4 mill. have about 19 dyna/boss nanos that i will be selling for about 1 mill each. and all the buffing armour that i havent priced yet.

    Grand total for an hour and a half of killing...17+ mill in imediate cash(from junk loot, creds from dead mobs and mission rewards)...probally another 20+ mill after the guns, buffing armour and special nanos.
    not selling CRU's(keeping those for org raids..so loot from that could be in the millions as well) but those would bring in 5-7 mill as well

    again, these were full easy missions...all grey mobs...easy as heck to kill...no danger at all...fast from mission to mission since they were all in City of Home.

    Point is...it aint that hard to make money. even naked with no armour or implants these missions would have been cake.

    So stop your whining about how you cant make cred after ingots are gone and try something new for a change. an hour and a half for 35+ mill, no danger and fast killing is not much. even the casual gamer can do it.
    Keep in mind that only the 17m was new credits, all your other junk wont sell for as much when other players less motivated dont have any credits. The money off your alien raids isn't new credits either, and that city upkeep is going to start looking much larger for many smaller orgs.

    But yeah, there are currently ways to bring in new credits, once the ebayers exploit the next system in line, it will be nerfed too. Eventually FC will have to deal with them properly.
    In the end we agreed to remove the one source introducing by far the largest sum of money to the game.
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  18. #398
    Next up, Animas! and like SL no cash from bodies. Mark my words.
    the difference is, you would need to farm 100x longer to get the same amount of credits from these as you did from ingots. even after the last ingot nerf, bags were still selling for 8-10m. would need alot more animas/looting bodies to get that.
    personally, i dont think this nerf was about the economy as much as it was about people selling credits on ebay. grats funcom, hopefully people will earn their money and learn how to play the game better instead of ebaying everything.
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  19. #399
    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkbane_rk2
    The way to do it is to level lock exits from the gardens. any level can go to the gardens but only up to certain levels can go through the statues.
    This is why it woud solve the farming problem in ely: the farmers are high level NOW. level locking (to say maybe 160 odd) would mean they would NEVER get back in. Terminating would be useless beacause they would be too high to get back in..
    I'm sorry, but this has got to be about the worst solution idea I've heard yet. Are you serious? Restricting entry into an entire playfield just to keep them off the brink? There's plenty of other reasons for high level people to be in ely other than farming ingots...frn for t3 is the best example (though there are many). I didn't buy SL just to have entire playfields taken away from me, punishing me as I progress.

    ...Of course the entire discussion is moot since ingots are going away there's no need for another solution, and gee-wiz...they even did it without barring people from entering ely
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  20. #400
    I dont want restricted entry into playfields but perhaps they could make it so that non-quest items dont spawn for ultra high level characters farming greys. This would stop the ultra high level campers in Shadowlands

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