Community answers - part 6

[______________Zizayu]

This sounds really good CZ...

I think its great that you finaly came out and said that not every profession should be great in PvP, and that some professions are better against some others. But I really hope you look inte this more.
Why dont you take the Professionals and make a PvP-test. Every profession against eachother, both duel- and team-fights.
Check wich profession that gets most wins, and note down why.
You really need to fix PvP balancing.

---EDIT---
Tsuneko:
You can't say that we MA's are underpowered?! Our heals are ok, our crits are great (best in the game) and we do really well in PvP (except against traders in my personal oppinion) and PvM. We are a balanced proffesion IMO.

[Nyadach]

Originally posted by Cz
one of the greatest concerns about outdoor hunting is the time and amount of travel involved, and making camps move around at random is not exactly going to reduce that.

Not sure about that really...I think "easy XP" is more to do with it. Hope and Home, both great places where lots of people run off to do lots and lots of missions, and where they congregate and lag the place to hell. The reason is its safe. They do half a mission, or all but for boss, run outside and save. Insurance terminals are easy to find, and the mob rushes for the amount of XP gained is easy to control. As such people do it. Outside the number of add's can be a bit more difficult to control, and as for a nice place to save XP its kinda a no hope usually. To get people outdoors is going to either need a load of insurance terms dropped into ruins all over the planet or something, or another way to save XP somehow. Both I expect something the designers don't fancy doing.

Personally, outside is great...and I love it. Indoors is a pain (partically those those of us who are not supposed to be hit), partically graphically (so boring). Its just trying to convice ppl to go out and about hunting. And the reason, yep...not easy XP. Hmph. More outdoor only items might assist in moving ppl outside too.

[alphane]

Originally posted by Cz

dijou, boss MOBs use almost the exact same loot table, so mission bosses and dyna camp bosses should in fact have pretty much identical loot distribution. Hence my surprise that people say the camp bosses give worse loot. I'm sorry if it sounded like a brush-off.

I read the entire thread you linked to a while back (and the added replies now), so it's not new to me. However, one of the greatest concerns about outdoor hunting is the time and amount of travel involved, and making camps move around at random is not exactly going to reduce that.

I advise you to create an official poll and ask people if they are ready to travel the world in order to gain Xps (as good as in indoor mission naturaly) and rare/unique loot . You could have some (good) surprises.
The idea is to give a chance to any player at any lvl to find a boss mob (i think that dyna camps are too much static and predictable,it become quickly boring). A boss mob of any lvl range with loot according to its lvl. this way we could be able to find those items in a large range of QL ,items that actually are only of a given QL due to the uniqueness of the mob where they drop from. (ex: the ring that give a pistol boost that drop from Cuty in tir county and which QL range is from 1 to 200 in the database).
A random boss mob at a random lvl in a random location (to avoid camping !) , among other usual mobs and that could drop randomly a good bunch of items. (unique or nodrop or special, whatever you put in their loot table). One or two mobs per playfield with a fas respawn (30mns).
This mob can be recognise due to a distinctiv sign or name. the only way to identify it as a special mob.
There is already a good amount of outpost in the fields. its not very hard to create some more if needed.

What are the benefits of this system ?:
- Even if only one third of the player population is ok to change their habit you can be sure to reduce significantly in the same time the lag in the cities , something that would be profitable to the entire community.
- Give a chance to anyone in the game.
- To have a reasonnable challenge to achieve
- To change the way that most MMORPG operate , that is a predictable static behavior that becomes rapidly repetitiv and boring. (missions, quests, mob camps).
- To give back to Adventurers their initial function.

It doesnt interfer at all with dyna camps that can stay available.
It increase the diversity of the different ways we can gain Xps and items.

And campers, especially high-level ones, will always be an issue, until we add more camps, dungeons and other stuff than they can possibly cover.

Campers are , by essence, lazy and attracted by easy and profitable targets. they act as a group, they need a good power in order to kill their target. i dont imagine anyone in this kind of group traveling the fields in the hope to find something interesting.
And in case they do it , they have the same chance as anyone else. Or other players have the same chance as big campers groups.

I'll bring up the issue with the designers, and see what they have planned. I think Craniums post on the VNboards is a good pointer though.

It think you're enough aware about this topic now. its my last post about this subject. thanks for your past answers.

[______________Scorus]

Another greatly infuriating bug that has been around a long time: we don't get XP from mobs that are standing in toxic water. These are mobs with 10000+ health, the 45 or so that they take from the water (as opposed to our damage) shouldn't be enough to not give us credit for the kill.

In fact, how about eliminating toxic water in missions altogether. Or if you want to keep the green water for effect, make it not do damage. The damage it does is insignificant, so the only real effects are that it spams our screen and costs us deserved XP.

Scorus

[____________IronTide]

The problem with outdoor hunting is the respawn rate.

A small team can clear 30 red spawns and then sit while 1 more spawns every 5 to 10 minutes.

[____________IronTide]

Originally posted by Cz
dijou, boss MOBs use almost the exact same loot table, so mission bosses and dyna camp bosses should in fact have pretty much identical loot distribution. Hence my surprise that people say the camp bosses give worse loot. I'm sorry if it sounded like a brush-off.

Most team missions are rolled with 6 people. Most dynacamp bosses are not. Simple simple.

[Kuro]

oooo...How'd I miss this one?

Originally posted by Cz

...
I read the entire thread you linked to a while back (and the added replies now), so it's not new to me. However, one of the greatest concerns about outdoor hunting is the time and amount of travel involved, and making camps move around at random is not exactly going to reduce that. And campers, especially high-level ones, will always be an issue, until we add more camps, dungeons and other stuff than they can possibly cover.

Again, I think someone is missing the whole motivation behind camping. Something is camped because:

• Predictability
• Ease
• Certainty of reward

The dynacamps are getting camped right now because of all 3. The camps' locations are have been fully exposed and will remain so as long as they are static. The camps can be easily overwhelmed by players, because they know what level range mobs to expect at the camp and can plan for it. And killing the boss always produces boss level loot.

Now before someone decides I'm suggesting they remove boss level loot from the camps or playing with the spawns (especially the timers or widening the level range), let me point out that the best solution is to make the camp locations random. If people do not know where to find something, they cannot camp it. Anything with a static location will be discovered, timed, and camped if the reward is appealing enough. And a chance at boss items without needing a team mission is a good enough reason.

Also, worrying about the travel time involved in outdoor hunting should be the least of concerns. If it is someone's greatest concern then they are obviously approaching the situation from the mindset that the player will always know exactly where they want to go. That appeals the least to people that like hunting outdoors. People that like hunting outdoors enjoy surprises and randomness so long as the reward is worth it.

[jakesnake5]

Originally posted by JaydeStargunner
Cz, QA may be telling you that...but it's not in the game. Sorry. =)

If someone in QA would come to me and show me, I may believe it. But if it's in rotation out there, I'm sure SOMEONE would have found one by now. As far as I know, not a single person has seen a BBI for sale since 14.4. It's not an accident.

Shops do not rotate stock "as intended." Not many of them, at least. Most shops are full of the same items day in, day out. All the time. Every day. Every server restart. Always the same. (Different QL's and quantities, of course. Same items.)

-Jayde

I have found them. They were showing up in shops last week. Can't find any THIS week, though, but there definately were there a week ago.

[_______________Zepto]

I like the idea of roaming dynacamps but what about just making Roaming Bosses? You know, super guys that just roam across Rubika and you never have any clue as to where they are going to be but if you do find one you can be sure of some pfat lwet. Kinda like Ownz, the leet but make him big, mean, and nasty and drop nulity disks just for me :-)

[Warlock]

Problem with mobile dyna camps will be when you run into one way too hard for your level.

Then you'll wish you knew where they were so you could avoid them

Mobile camps only serve the high level players who can pretty much handle anything thrown at them

This does not help the lower ranges at all.

[alphane]

Originally posted by IronTide
The problem with outdoor hunting is the respawn rate.

A small team can clear 30 red spawns and then sit while 1 more spawns every 5 to 10 minutes.

I cant enjoy something predictable , thats not my conception of a game. no challenge at all.
thats is exactly like going to las vegas and put a coin in a machine thousands times. you should better play to DAoC. boring.

[alphane]

Originally posted by Warlock
Problem with mobile dyna camps will be when you run into one way too hard for your level.

Then you'll wish you knew where they were so you could avoid them

Thats why we suggest one boss mob and not a whole camp.
And in case you find a whole camp you can allways call your guildmates to help you.
Mobile boss are intended to those of us that want some challenge. not sit and wait for the next spawn. you still have the static camp , the missions, the dunjons.
Its time to give to the players an other way to gain xps and loot.

Mobile camps only serve the high level players who can pretty much handle anything thrown at them

This does not help the lower ranges at all.

Static camp as well and a lot of more. and everywhere where something is predictable and knowned. enough please..

[____________IronTide]

My point would be that 2 mobs/buff session is not something that a team will tolerate. Outdoor hunting can not occur with such low respawn rates.

[Tetra]

it's wonderful that a bunch of clueless people are commenting about things they don't have any experience with using their experience that doesnt apply... but... outdoor hunting simply is not worth it in any way shape or form at high levels.

now before anyone whines and stomps their feet about how people are lazy because they read one point and ignore the rest, or try to deal with the reasons point by point rather than as a whole which is what players do when they consider the benefits of hunting indoors vrs outdoors you have to remember that the entire list is something taken into account not just point X.

• Outdoor mobs give roughly the same, slightly more, or slightly less exp per kill compared to mission mobs.
• there is more danger cause of wandering mobs.
• at high levels if it isnt aggro that's cause it's grey in almost all cases.
• a huge majority of outdoor places at high levels a single wandering aggro is able to whipe out the entire team or cut a path through a large portion of it.
• the mobs outdoors generally hit not only harder, but faster.
• the loot on outdoor mobs is for all intents and purposes nonexistant.
• you have bugged mobs like the high end lifebleeder class mobs that can mow down a soldier with great radiation AC's and TMS because they dual wield instane, hit for doubles almost constantly, and are rumored to check the wrong skill for defense against their attacks... or an Anun
• you have a spawn of 9zillion aggro and or assisting mobs that when they lowest are grey to a person they can see every shade of green yellow orange red and deep deep deep red making them unhuntable unless all but the top end mobs are the colored ones... except at that point as we all know it's not worth hunting because of the low amount/low exp
• save terminals are nowhere to be fount or far off
• at low levels (below roughly 70-100ish) you can go for hours and hours on end and continue to level or just kill stuff without worry about when your last save was because you level rather often and get saved each time so even if there is a horrible mess up and people die the most you lost is an hour or so... at high levels you might play all day long doing massive powerleveling in missions and still not level... meaning if you die outdoors in almost 100% of the cases you will lose everything since last save.
• at very high levels you get a million plus EXP as a mission reward which can be all of 20 minutes time, nothing outdoors can compare to this because outdoor hunting is flawed with all the above problems and a few more on top of this no exp bonus.
• a huge % of the things that could be considered high level outdoor camps that are viably hunted are generally only enough to support one group who massacres the place then proceeds to pick off the spawns as they come like popcorn... popcorn that gives less exp/hr as the popcorn we kill in missions. a good example are the oozelurker and such camps around 10-3
• then there are a few more like the tunnel to and pitlizard den where you have to fight through a mass of mobs (borgs, snakes, and somethng else... scorpoids?) in a long long LONG tunnel only to wind up at a den with 3 pitlizards and a bunch of aggro snakes, the pitlizards give trash exp and are are on par with a boss in the time it takes to kill them, oh yea they are more likely to kill a group member, they drop trash loot, and are basically trash all around save for the cool factor of going there and doing it once. the snakes respawn pretty quickly and cut the squishy magely types down in a few hits. etc... etc etc.

Saying it's just people being lazy is inaccurate and shows a serious lack of understanding for the problem. People are realists and if something is a WORSE choice in almost every single way save for the fact that it's different they simply will not take that choice repeatedly just because it's different.

[_______________Zepto]

It is incorrect for you to say that outdoor hunting is "not worth it in any way shape or form at high levels. " There was a time when it was worth it. Actually, in the day, it was the prefered method of gaining experence. No one use to make mission teams. Mission where just something you did solo when you were bord. Everyone use to make Hunting parties. Thoes were the days and we are just looking into ways to big that back. I miss the old hunting grounds and the missions give me closterphobia.

[Tetra]

Originally posted by Zepto
It is incorrect for you to say that outdoor hunting is "not worth it in any way shape or form at high levels. " There was a time when it was worth it. Actually, in the day, it was the prefered method of gaining experence. No one use to make mission teams. Mission where just something you did solo when you were bord. Everyone use to make Hunting parties. Thoes were the days and we are just looking into ways to big that back. I miss the old hunting grounds and the missions give me closterphobia.

well i was talking about what we have available today there used to a be few places that were good outdoor hunting but funcom nerfed the piss out of them

[alphane]

You're right Tetra and i agree with you on all the points you listed about the problem of hunting versus missions.
And all thoses points should be fixed before any other attempt to improve hunting.
However the fact is that static camps is not IMO a good solution or , at least, the sole solution.

[_______________Vydas]

Originally posted by Scorus
Another greatly infuriating bug that has been around a long time: we don't get XP from mobs that are standing in toxic water. These are mobs with 10000+ health, the 45 or so that they take from the water (as opposed to our damage) shouldn't be enough to not give us credit for the kill.

In fact, how about eliminating toxic water in missions altogether. Or if you want to keep the green water for effect, make it not do damage. The damage it does is insignificant, so the only real effects are that it spams our screen and costs us deserved XP.

Scorus

While it's true that this happens in acid, it's related to the DoT portion - you can see this if you play a profession that wears damage shields, when the killing blow is from the DS, no experience is gained. Eliminating acid will only partially solve this issue.

[Bionitrous]

If these 'dyna'-camps are at fixed locations with fixed levels that spawn at fixed times with fixed monster sets then it is not 'hunting'. It's 'shopping'.

That's not what was asked for in the out of doors.

I don't want to go to a web page, input my level, and have it spit out coordinates and spawn times for a boss spawn appropriate for my level.

Exactly how thick are the skulls over there?

[Kuro]

Soooo...to keep this back on track with the intent behind the thread, here's another thing for Cz:

The dynacamps in their current implementation are contributing to more problems and dissatisfaction. The idea of bringing boss loot outside of missions is fine. But the static locations and spawn timers aren't what we're looking for in outdoor hunting. The general feeling seems to be that we won't mind running hunting down the boss camps if they're appearing in random locations and are wandering about. And with the current static spawn locations, the camps are getting farmed by people because they know exactly where to find them and what level range the mobs are there.