Question on PVP missions.

[Gonoc]

I merely pointed out that just because someone is a GM, they do not neccecarily know the first thing about game design desitions.

Yeah that was exactly what you said.....

Rather pointless remark considering GM's are ingame support personell that have nothing whatsoever to do with the game design nor are likely to know the underlying reason for design choices.

Cheers!

[Syyceria]

You want a reason?

Being neutral isn't a side. Clan v Omni is a 2 sided war, and being neutral makes you the 3rd party not involved in the war.

You are writing, but you aren't listening.

1.) Neutrals get shot in Tir
2.) Omni-Tek invaded Borealis

It's not a Black/White as you wish, it's a conflict between three parties.

I have enough RP-reason to kill Omni+Clan right now, so your arguments crumble to dust.

Next try.

[Novafox]

That's almost my point... Neutrals have never been 'ignored'.... they were DESIGNED to be the way they are....

I could almost accept the argument that Neutrals are supposed to get different advantages than omniclan, which are nothing more than a mirror image of eachother anymore. However the fact is that Neutrals have no advantages anymore, even the specious ones we once had are gone now. And they never compensated for disadvantages. The loss of the LFT channels and the way the LFT interface is designed is a loss of advantages Neuts were DESIGNED to have. Who would not raise hell if OTAF and Sentinels armors were patched out of the game with nothing to compensate? Neuts used to have the easiest faction with SL, but now look at the situation, with everyone doing missions and LOTV nearly impossible to pull, Neutrals have the worst. What did we get in return?
So what if we can travel most places without getting shot at? Its not an advantage when a omniclan can still get anywhere they need to go if they know what they are doing. Its an advantages to froobs maybe. But they don't pay for the game.
So what if we can use both gardens? Most Neutrals I know only bother with one side anyways, usually clan keys because there is no reason to have both, and clan inferno statues are the best placed. Omniclans have no problems getting around SL with their keys do they? Who even wants to do most of the garden quests more than once?
GMS searches all sides? Wow. Something anyone can get with a level 1 Neut alt.

Bottom line is Neuts have been losing more and more with each patch lately, and we have gotten absolutely nothing in return. Neuts can and do PVP and naturally those Neuts might want to do PVP missions. It should be available to us.

[porcia]

omni/clan players telling neutrals what their role is on rubi-ka is amazingly arrogant.

[Pretorious]

I have to agree with FC if your going to play both sides of the fence the you dont get the same advantages of being sided. I think there should be more penalties for not chosing a side.

[Negs]

This isn't about neutral vs. clan vs. omni.

Hell i even personally believe we should not have the same items and phats as the side.

however, this isn't about toons ... its about RL and real people spending real money, on the same product as 90% of everyone else, and then being told "no you can't play".


Its like 3 kids going to an ammusement park, one wearing a red shirt, a blue shirt, and a gray shirt.

If all have to pay the same admission to get in they should all have access to the same stuff. But because one kid has a gray shirt. ... "oh no you can't ride that rollercoaster, its for red and blues only. No grays allowed".

Keep the freakin rewards as tokens .. THAT IS NOT THE POINT. The point is being able to do them. To many of you sided people here arguing are item centric and can't wrap your head around the idea that just because the reward is "useless" to us means we should not be allowed to participate.

Hell its flat out SEGREGATION.


And the best part is Funcom will never come out and say they want us gone, or come into a thread and be like "you know we f'd up ... we only want clans and omni's". As long as they get their money every month they could give to flyin **** about the minority of their revenue base. We are all just numbers and figures .. not people when it comes to dealing with a company. Individuals within may genuinely care ... but the corporation doesn't.

[Anorah]

This isn't about neutral vs. clan vs. omni.

Hell i even personally believe we should not have the same items and phats as the side.

however, this isn't about toons ... its about RL and real people spending real money, on the same product as 90% of everyone else, and then being told "no you can't play".


Its like 3 kids going to an ammusement park, one wearing a red shirt, a blue shirt, and a gray shirt.

If all have to pay the same admission to get in they should all have access to the same stuff. But because one kid has a gray shirt. ... "oh no you can't ride that rollercoaster, its for red and blues only. No grays allowed".

Keep the freakin rewards as tokens .. THAT IS NOT THE POINT. The point is being able to do them. To many of you sided people here arguing are item centric and can't wrap your head around the idea that just because the reward is "useless" to us means we should not be allowed to participate.

Hell its flat out SEGREGATION.


And the best part is Funcom will never come out and say they want us gone, or come into a thread and be like "you know we f'd up ... we only want clans and omni's". As long as they get their money every month they could give to flyin **** about the minority of their revenue base. We are all just numbers and figures .. not people when it comes to dealing with a company. Individuals within may genuinely care ... but the corporation doesn't.

Bump. Giving neutrals the same treatment as sided folk is lame, but not giving them content period is even worse.

[matthius518]

however, this isn't about toons ... its about RL and real people spending real money, on the same product as 90% of everyone else, and then being told "no you can't play".

And if I rolled a Sharp Object Soldier and came on to the forums bitching about Funcom not developping my toon and that I spend the same amount of money...


...you guessed it... you and everyone else would flame the hell out of me for expecting equal development of Sharp Object Soldiers....

[Piping_Hot]

(given the size of omni and clan vs neutrals... I'll guess many people made their informed decision)

Considering the number of Omni/Clan players that would like to be able to go Neutral, and the number of Neutral players that make Omni/Clan alts becuase they are tired of FC not making the game match the storyline, your assertion clearly misses the mark.

And what is their reason for wanting to go Neutral???? My guess is that they aren't wanting to go neutral for increased PvP content... or for increased Item content...

It really doesn't matter what their reason is. The point is that, now that they are more informed than they once were, many Omni/Clan players would rather be Neutral.

We could speculate about many possible reasons whey they might want to go Neutral, but the reason for each individual doesn't matter. What matters is that there is a goodly number of Omni/Clan players who, now that they have played the game and have become better informed, want to go Neutral.

So, to recap. Your assertion of people having made and "informed decision" when they started the game very obviously misses the mark. Now that they are more informed they want the option to change that decision.

[Negs]

And if I rolled a Sharp Object Soldier and came on to the forums bitching about Funcom not developping my toon and that I spend the same amount of money...


...you guessed it... you and everyone else would flame the hell out of me for expecting equal development of Sharp Object Soldiers....

No you don't get it ... because you have the opportunity to choose to become one. Neutrals have no opportunity at all to even choose to do pvp quests/missions or not, this is not about being on the same level of stats/phats/abilities as sided chars. Its about access.

[Piping_Hot]

Originally Neutral was intended to only be playable up to level 50 and a player starting neutral, also started with a side change form for each of omni and clan...

This game is 5 years old. It really doesn't matter what FunCom's "original intent" was, because they completely failed to implement it properly. If they really, truly intended Neutral to only be playable up to Lvl 50 then they should have made it impossible, starting the day the game was released, to get more levels unless they went Omni/Clan. And they missed that opportunity 5 years ago, that ship has sailed.

We can talk about "original intent" all day and it will have no bearing whatsoever on the conversation. FunCom didn't "originally intend" some of the professions that have been added to the game, they didn't "originally intend" Shadowlands, or Alien Invasion, or Lost Eden - there have been many changes and additions to the game that were not "originally intended" since it was released.

Any discussion of "original intent" is nothing more than a gambit intended to avoid the real question of how AO is developing and will develop in the future.

[Piping_Hot]

And if I rolled a Sharp Object Soldier and came on to the forums bitching about Funcom not developping my toon and that I spend the same amount of money...

...you guessed it... you and everyone else would flame the hell out of me for expecting equal development of Sharp Object Soldiers....

This is a cute trick, trying to use a ridiculous and absurd scenario to make it seem as though actual topic being discussed is invalid, but it won't work. We're not going to fall for this kind of cheap trickery, keep your red herring to yourself. The desire for Neutral content and rolling a Sharp Object soldier are not remotely comperable.

[Eleniscrat]

I had to search for my logon for this so be happy...darn case-sensativity...

I play neut just cuz I didn't want to have to deal with the token bored...happy?

But, the game FORCES us to play as either a Omni clone, or a Clan clone...Do you not realize that neuts DO NOT have a garden in sl? And are forced into raises enough faction to be let into one...and if they dont make the faction high enough, how are we supposed to buy the nano's in the gardens? That we need or we are yelled at by team...(I play crat...so yes, I do get yelled at. I fix it by never perking for my teams Life is fair...)...and no, dont say pick a side, cuz I've been yelled at for not being the right "side" to join the team aswell even when I played as Omni and Clan...Oh, ask a neut how much Red and Unred faction they get? Cuz, I've seen +faction max out at 20k if I'm not mistaken and -faction keep on going...How fair is that? How are we supposed to be able to recover and use both gardens then? Expecaly after 1 pen/inf mish wipes out any faction we have and we cant meep out...

Since the game makes us choose a side...why cant we play the quests for the side were made to play?

Oh, if this dosent make sence to you...I'm tired...if it does...WOOT! You think like me...Flame me and you die...

[Jellyfunk]

And if I rolled a Sharp Object Soldier ....

Aaah, so the *real* problem with neuts is that we're not all playing Clan 'trox Advies. Move along, everything is Working As Intended(tm)

I think part of the reason that this rankles is that it's so lazy and pointless. As a neut, my inv doesn't get spammed with tokens after a mission, so clearly Funcom can alter mission rewards based on your alignment. If the neuts aren't killing for tokens, let 'em kill for money. Mercenaries, amoral profiteers and all that.
It's not a technical limitation, it wouldn't give us gear that's reserved for OT/Clan, and its not a side-effect of enhancing the game for sided players (like the LFT window was), so it's a deliberate denial of content for no reason.

Imagine if they had let Neuts take the missions:
* Neut-haters wouldn't even have to leave their faction cities to mow us down, we'd be flagging up right in their backyard, they could just sit on the porch and farm
* We'd have a slight advantage in not getting instantly aggroed on entering a city: if you want to do a PvP mission, it might be an advantage to pick up a neut to do the pulling or scout for you, sucking a few more peeps into PvP and maybe into towers and your side

Result: Fresh meat into the PvP grinder, Xmas & birthday all at once for people who want to kill neuts and enough drama to keep the LoA/LoR trolls busy for months. Seems like a winner all round to me

[Piping_Hot]

You want a reason?

Being neutral isn't a side. Clan v Omni is a 2 sided war, and being neutral makes you the 3rd party not involved in the war. Plain and simple.

Yet another person who only understands one defintion of Neutral. I can do the same thing, watch this. There is more than one defintion of "clan" in the dictionary, but I'll just use the single definition that is convenient for my argument.
Clan
1 a : a Celtic group especially in the Scottish Highlands comprising a number of households whose heads claim descent from a common ancestor

So, until all Clanners start wearing tartan and playing the bagpipes the dictionary says they're all wrong Wrong WRONG.

What's that you say? You can't use the dictionary to define the factions known as "Omni-Tech" or "The Clans" in the game of AO? Then what makes you think you can use the dictionary to define the faction known as "Neutral" in AO? This is a silly, specious argument. Either stay in the game/storyline, or stay in your dictionary, but stop trying to have it both ways.

When you can show me a dictionary that defines "Omni-Tek" and "The Clans" then you can use that dictionary to tell us the definition of "Neutral" in the game of AO.

You can say "oh well neuts have enemies too", but its not relevant, in the grand scheme of things, to the omni v clan war. the new pvp content is to greater clan/omni in the RP aspect (and dont hand me this crap that RP is dead) and neuts getting this pvp thing does not add to this RP.

It is obvious you have never read the story line, and that you have not paid attention to the many NPC dialogues that talk about role of Neutrals in the conflict, especially NPC dialogues in the Shadowlands (to refresh your memory, JOBE is a Neutral organization). There are many more RP reasons to give Neutrals an active role in the conflict than to prevent them. Neutrals aren't simply fence sitters, they think that both Omni-Tek and the Clans are wrong, and they actively want the war to end and for the citizens of Rubi-Ka to unite against the mysteries of the Shadowlands and the threat posted by the Aliens.

or roll another char.

Ah yes, the last resort of a person who knows their positions is weakening. 'If you don't like it roll another toon'. This is always such a weak response.

[Awikun]

I could almost accept the argument that Neutrals are supposed to get different advantages than omniclan, which are nothing more than a mirror image of eachother anymore. However the fact is that Neutrals have no advantages anymore, even the specious ones we once had are gone now. And they never compensated for disadvantages....

...Bottom line is Neuts have been losing more and more with each patch lately, and we have gotten absolutely nothing in return. Neuts can and do PVP and naturally those Neuts might want to do PVP missions. It should be available to us...

That is very good summary of what have been happening during last several months.

IF Neutrals got some content available exclusively for them, with even a lot harder, longer missions (even not based around pvp idea) or if Neutrals were able to get access to Omni/Clan items, but with extra effor needed then I would be happy. For example every sided item including NODROPS should be able to be hacked/transformed by JOBE scientists in such a way that Neutral player could use it. I would not mind if each hack/transformation would require doing difficult quest and the resulting item had no other benefits but just be 100% the same as Omni/Clan version.

The result of such solution would be that Neutrals would have possibility to get same equipment but with more effort and dificulty than sided players.

As for pvp missions I do not insist that Neutrals should be able to do them in a same way as sided players. I would be happy with different kind of missions based around an idea of trading, spying, JOBE or whatever game designers think that is suitable for us, but I do not accept that we are just ignored.

When I started to play AO (and I had no idea about storyline, game mechanics etc.) the only reason why I decided to be Neutral was that I read in some guides that playing Neutral is like playing on a hardest difficulty level and over the years I was happy with. However playing on a hardest difficulty level means that you have to spend more time and be more skillfull to achieve the same result as somebody playing on easy settings and not that more and more content is not available for me and that there are more and more thing that no matter what I do are impossible to get at all.