Why the Jobe Explorer Personal Pistol is bad for Adventurers

[Verta]

It would be a lot harder to modify game mechanics just to give ranged advies 6 bullet bursts, than to give us a FA buff to bring our FA AR to fair to mddling levels. And modify the already existing uber pistol to have a normal size clip, mbs and projectile damage while they are at it.

It might have been better if we never gotten FA in the first place, but we did so FC might as well finish what they started in 04 and give us some FA lub, rather than pretending that ranged advies don't exist.

[wolfmyth]

It would be a lot harder to modify game mechanics just to give ranged advies 6 bullet bursts, than to give us a FA buff to bring our FA AR to fair to mddling levels. And modify the already existing uber pistol to have a normal size clip, mbs and projectile damage while they are at it.

It might have been better if we never gotten FA in the first place, but we did so FC might as well finish what they started in 04 and give us some FA lub, rather than pretending that ranged advies don't exist.

Call me a pessimist but I don't think we will ever get a _decent_ FA buff to what we need. FC want classes to be unique from each other. They already gave FA to fixers. Giving out FA to all ranged classes is the same as giving out AS and I think FC have relized this and are trying to make classes unique again (like fixing soldiers so AS isn't a needed part of their toolset).

I could be wrong and Fc give us a real FA pistol with a ideally 300+ FA buff and I would be happy, but I just don't believe it will happen anytime soon if at all.

[Verta]

I hope you are wrong about unique weapons and specials for professions. Because looking back at meager ranged advy LE lub, all we can hope for is a dual wield fling shot only pistols that will need 4K MR and 3K SI to equip...

[Gothy]

At this point I don't think it's possible to really instate a sort of this-special-is-unique-to-this-class approach after giving us FA. I hope FC also realizes that.
As adventurers, we're supposed to be the all around class anyway, so in my opinion, it makes perfect sense that both our melee and ranged counterparts have access to every special. Are we to be specialized in one special over the other, no, but I think it is perfectly reasonable that we have access to all.

I am okay with our FA being inferior to a soldier's. I am okay with my Burst being inferior to both a soldier's and a fixer's. I am not okay being squandered and hearded toward a ****ty special (hello fling!) that is only worth it on a gun with high crit (which, of course, we don't get!). I am definately NOT okay with the fact, let alone the concept, that doctors get better pistols than we do. Even if they can't utilize them as we can, there is something wrong when a class that has it's primary role as a healer is getting better weapons than a combat class.

Not that I mean to go on a rant and completely change the flow of this thread, but why is it that ranged adventurers are even further behind their melee counterparts than they were 3 years ago? Why is it that two out of four of our perk lines are almost useless to ranged adventurers (Shadowstalker, geared to Sneak Attack (though hell, I've perked it just for the aad ;p), Outdoorsman, only useful thing is ranged init ;p) and yet melee can easily use all four? Why do melee get better weapons, stronger perks, and access to all melee specials? I feel our class description is more than adequate to describe our melee half. Why is FC so insistant on denying the same privellage to ranged? True, the ranged specials are stronger than melee--faster recharge, higher damage. But to compensate our weapons have lower crit and regular damage. I have yet to see the unfairness in that swap--our damages SHOULD be different. But the determinate factor in which type ODs the other should be player setup, not whether ranged or melee has the better weapon.

This is really a mostly adventurer related problem. There are other professions (namely, enforcers) whom have similair weapons issues, but only adventurers have the unique problem of having an extreme imbalance between weapon choices, because we can choose between ranged and melee. They should be equally viable options for us, and if not equally, the difference shouldn't be so large that one option becomes inferior.

I guess my point is, FC needs to realize that whether or not they intended FA to become a part of our profession, it has. Choices FC have made in recent years towards adventurers have more than likely taken into consideration FA. Not our profession outside of FA, but our profession and FA in tandem. They have attempted to draw us back to fling shot, but we know how well that's gone. So I think it's time for FC to throw in the towel and give us a new damn pistol with full auto. Maybe the clip size is still 10 bullets, but the regular damage, the MBS, or the crit needs to be much higher than it is---or lets face it, ranged advs will be using JEPP until the game closes.

[wolfmyth]

I am definately NOT okay with the fact, let alone the concept, that doctors get better pistols than we do. Even if they can't utilize them as we can, there is something wrong when a class that has it's primary role as a healer is getting better weapons than a combat class.

This I agree is pure BS from FC. "Sadly" unlike the soldiers/NT forum we are too layed back and don't really whine that much as a whole. While on one side its good because we have a better adv comunity on the other side crap like this happens that in no way should of happened. When the pistols came out I don't think I saw a single thread complaining about this which we had a very good reason for.

I do understand that docs needed some love (I have my own tl7 doc) but giving docs thoes pistols from an adv view is like if adv got a 20k heal on 2/2. Docs wouldn't be too happy about that also.

[Verta]

*shrug* I don't begrudge docs, they did not have a viable pvp/pvm weapon at all. Well, they still don't, but thats FC for you.

[Redbar]

Then again, the doctor pistols equipped on an endgame advy would nerf his damage compared to JEPP/Peregrine. This goes for the burst pistol + JEPP, too -- less than 5% extra base damage nowhere near makes up for the loss of fling.

[dummydoo]

*shrug* I don't begrudge docs, they did not have a viable pvp/pvm weapon at all. Well, they still don't, but thats FC for you.

not quite true. they never lacked weapons. they lacked the weapons skills to use weapons, which they still do as you said.

[Verta]

Lack of weapon skills, yep. But apart from that, name me one Doc weapon that would be effective both in PvP and PvM, ranged preferrably, I don't really do melee

[Gothy]

Lack of weapon skills, yep. But apart from that, name me one Doc weapon that would be effective both in PvP and PvM, ranged preferrably, I don't really do melee

What exactly would be your definition of "viable" where docs are concerned?

Because it seems to me that MA docs do fairly well. No weapon needed ;p

[Verta]

My current concern is low TL5 I guess, so I use JAME for S10 soloing-teaming. Its slow going, but it works. But its absolutely pointles on BS, there I'd need AS, to kill anyone. But any AS weapon available would be worse than useless in PvM. And swapping is really not an option.

Docs are much worse off weaponwise than even ranged advies.

MA? no thanks, I much prefer to ubt, dot and run behind some phat soldier before I get into weapon range of the zerg.
Would I even get close to AR required to hit anyone or anything with my fists anyway?

[wolfmyth]

Docs are much worse off weaponwise than even ranged advies.

But thats the thing, docs aren't really a weapon class. Its like NTs complaining they can't use any decent weapons. Doc should be relying on DoTs which are not that bad.
I'm all for docs getting pvp love which they needed. Ranged adv should have received a better version of these pistols however, after all we are the main pistol class and pistols is the ONLY thing ranged adv can use. Docs on the otherhand have freedom over what ranged weapon they use to some extent be it AR, HW, shotty or pistols and others.

[Gothy]

My current concern is low TL5 I guess, so I use JAME for S10 soloing-teaming. Its slow going, but it works. But its absolutely pointles on BS, there I'd need AS, to kill anyone. But any AS weapon available would be worse than useless in PvM. And swapping is really not an option.

Docs are much worse off weaponwise than even ranged advies.

MA? no thanks, I much prefer to ubt, dot and run behind some phat soldier before I get into weapon range of the zerg.
Would I even get close to AR required to hit anyone or anything with my fists anyway?

Your personal preference doesn't really mean that MA is not a viable option. I've heard great things about shen stick docs, and if you don't want to get hit, then don't shoot/hit anything.

I also don't think your AR for MA would be anyworse than your AR for pistol ;p.

You don't get an awesome weapon that you just get to point and shoot. No matter what you choose, you will have to gear yourself up towards it to make it viable. You've recieved an awesome pistol that will not be so awesome if you have 0 items that support it.

It makes perfect sense to me that docs don't get awesome weapons. Should they? It's simply not their role. And even if docs did have an awesome weapon, what exactly could they do with it? Docs would never get the AR or skill to make it really worthwhile to use over other options already available, imo.

Meanwhile, back at the ranch, us lonely pistoleros are still using the same damn pistol that came out years and years ago, and unlike docs who have a role as a primary healer, we poor little fighters are still left with about 0 viable options outside of JEPP+other. An option that's not really been an option for about 4 years now.

So really, why docs may be in the lower end of the spectrum when it comes to fighting skills, to the point where there is no real good choice, the fighter class who actually needs a weapon doesn't have one. In my opinion, this makes us more in need of one than docs ;p.

[Verta]

But thats the thing, docs aren't really a weapon class. Its like NTs complaining they can't use any decent weapons. Doc should be relying on DoTs which are not that bad.
I'm all for docs getting pvp love which they needed. Ranged adv should have received a better version of these pistols however, after all we are the main pistol class and pistols is the ONLY thing ranged adv can use. Docs on the otherhand have freedom over what ranged weapon they use to some extent be it AR, HW, shotty or pistols and others.

Oh yes of course ranged advies need PvP love, but I've got a bad feeling that FC doesn't realise it, because according to their fabled 'stats' advies in general are doing well in PvP. And I've got a sneaking su****ion that separating the two weapon classes has gone into a 'too hard' basket. And with no hard reportable stats, there's no probelm to fix, is there? Everything is uber and all advies are godmode.

But as for docs, have you tried killing anything or anyone with dots at TL5? Especially while you have 6 other people beating up on you at the same time waiting for you to CH?
It takes me ages and two - three recasts to kill myself with dots, and only if i remember to cancel all the hots running first.
Dots are good in conjunction with perks and AS and ubt. By themselves they are nothing more than an annoyance.
And swapping to an AS weapon would turn me into nothing but a heal pet in PvM.

I am not saying that Docs should be an uber weapon class, but they need a weapon that would be able to hit a mob and a player at the same time. Not for much, the outlast theory should still remain, but hit nonetheless. Like NTs can with their cyberdecs for example

[Verta]

Your personal preference doesn't really mean that MA is not a viable option. I've heard great things about shen stick docs, and if you don't want to get hit, then don't shoot/hit anything.
.....

Heh, I wouldn't go down that line of argument if I were you. After all, us being ranged advies is nothing but a personal preference, and better melee options are available.

[wolfmyth]

But as for docs, have you tried killing anything or anyone with dots at TL5? Especially while you have 6 other people beating up on you at the same time waiting for you to CH?

I do some pvp with another tl5 doc, when you get 6 people you run. You don't just try to kill them, or do your really want to be able to tank 6 people and kill them one by one? I always though dots were great, but you don't get to use them too often, then again if you could Heal with 3 people on you _and_ do lots of DD that would be way to OPed. Docs are more then fine in TL5 BS and can be very hard to kill.

Anyways we are talking about tl7, not 5. Adv do more then well in tl5. It just sad that we go through using the same weapons from tl4 up to tl7 for pvp.

I don't think adv are in the too hard basket. If they were we would have a chance for a fix by now, its been 4 years now. We are in the "works for me" basket

[Gothy]

Heh, I wouldn't go down that line of argument if I were you. After all, us being ranged advies is nothing but a personal preference, and better melee options are available.

I don't quite think it's the same thing. True, both are personal preferences, but for a doc to change weapons means they more or less change weapons. You might switch a symb or two, IPR one or two skills and maybe a hud item. For an adv to switch from melee to range requires a complete reoverhaul, from everything equippable to perks. To me, even if I wanted to switch, it isn't an option. I simply would quit the game (again ;D) if I had to refarm everything I had just to go melee.

Perhaps that's just splitting hairs, but I think it'd be generally easier for me to just reroll than it would be for me to make the switch. So yes, same thing, but most definately there is a vast difference in severity of change ;p.

[Gothy]

I don't think adv are in the too hard basket. If they were we would have a chance for a fix by now, its been 4 years now. We are in the "works for me" basket

We're not so much in the "works for me" basket as we are in the "half the profession is ok so ignore the other half basket". The only difference it seems is that the half that is being left behind is not being vocal enough about it. Years of waiting has taken it's toll it seems, and it appears most of us have just given up.

I laughed very hard today when someone said, "Oh, a ranged adv. Don't see too many of those these days."

[dummydoo]

Oh yes of course ranged advies need PvP love, but I've got a bad feeling that FC doesn't realise it, because according to their fabled 'stats' advies in general are doing well in PvP. And I've got a sneaking su****ion that separating the two weapon classes has gone into a 'too hard' basket. And with no hard reportable stats, there's no probelm to fix, is there? Everything is uber and all advies are godmode.

agreed

But as for docs, have you tried killing anything or anyone with dots at TL5? Especially while you have 6 other people beating up on you at the same time waiting for you to CH?
It takes me ages and two - three recasts to kill myself with dots, and only if i remember to cancel all the hots running first.
Dots are good in conjunction with perks and AS and ubt. By themselves they are nothing more than an annoyance.

not relevant. we are not talking t5.

And swapping to an AS weapon would turn me into nothing but a heal pet in PvM.

A doc is a heal pet in pvm...

I am not saying that Docs should be an uber weapon class, but they need a weapon that would be able to hit a mob and a player at the same time. Not for much, the outlast theory should still remain, but hit nonetheless. Like NTs can with their cyberdecs for example

to finish and i hope u do read this last bit before you reply. i have known some docs to OD me. i am good DD. now if a doc an OD me and have better heals...

if everyone knew how much DD a properly geared doc an generate there would only be docs around.

PS: well ok it was only 2 doc's, one was smg and one was MA but still... they do very good with thier new pistols +dots especially if they don't need to heal.

[Nosgoth]

Nah, we are still in the "omgzorz! you got cacoon and acrobat and heals! you don't deserve anything that could hurt anyone out there, you're too OP'ed cause my agent/soldier/keeper can't alphakill you!"-basket.

So, why do we need a better pistol, or even better item/perk/researchsupport for our existing pistols? We've got a great pistol, we received it 4 or nearly 5 years ago. It is a great pistol, but... It has a laughable clip. The main DD from this pistol comes from Full Auto. But we've got nearly no FA support itemwise. This leads to the problem, that this pistol is nearly useless in pvp when trying to kill someone who has more than crappy evades. The FA doesn't hit. Besides, this pistol has a MBS of 1000. This leads to the problem, that this pistol does more or less crappy normal hits. Oh, and its got Energy dmg, which fits absolutely perfect to our other high end pistols, which do projectile dmg. We need to switch our dmg to fire dmg (luckily we've got two items for that), which we could do with two special bracers. But this means sacrificing the benefits of a second arul etc... AND it shortens the usage of the new bracers, that came in the last patches. But we've got another option, we could use our new nano "poisonous bite", which turns our dmg type to poison. But this nano needs ridicolous high sense imp skill, which isn't reachable without sacrificing something else.

With LE we received the OFAB Peregrine. A fairly good pistol, good dmg, nice specials (yes, fling shot is nice, too. and, thanks to FC, we've got enough fling shot and pistol skill to actually hit with it), but it isn't good enough to dual wield it, cause the JEPP does pvm-wise more dmg than the Pere with its FA. Besides, lacking item and perk support for burst, it's a pain in the arse to selfequip, if you don't got highend items.

Next point: Perks. Melee has great perks, but as we see in our toolset, pistol should be, at least, nearly equal to it. But our weapon and dmg perks are mostly designed for melee. We've got the perks from light artillery and pistol mastery... i think, that's all. those perks are lame, dmgwise. and they are damn slow. We could have a big DD perk (Detonate stoneworks), but this perk is so damn slow, that the most targets are dead, when it would hit. besides, it has a recharge which is only laughable.

What the ranged advs do need is a pistol, that makes them laying down the JEPP. even a small upgrade would do it. 50 more mindam or something, clip of 20 or 25 bullets, a higher MBS, even 1750 would do it, and a change to projectile dmg. They also need a little bit of support for their specials. Which means a major FA or a Burst buff. Or better, both.

What ranged advs don't need is more whining about godmode and such things. We had some love with SL, but since then, absorbs were heavily nerfed in pvp, our evades had no real upgrade since SL... the only thing, that keeps us really alive is... having items, that cost us billions and billions of credits, and having our good heals. Try fighting an ranged adv, while the adv is using light of life (second best single heal of advs) and the second best morph heal. he will be dead real soon, after his defensive perks are gone.

Oh, and btw.... I don't want to lean me out of the window, i read many times, that ranged advs should rely on their toolset and such,instead of begging for a new FA pistol (fixers do this real often). i think, it would be funny to take this argument and ask for a viable AS-pistol. Adv is the only prof besides MA and Agent with its own AS buff. AND, we've got a huge concealment buff, too. So maybe an AS pistol would be a real option.

Edit: You hit typos with xxxxx points of nerf dmg.