Evolution or Creation?

[Tsun]

This may be a little heavy for here but its been something ive been discussing with a very intelligent work frand.

Which do you beleive in and why? (without going into pages and pages of detail which is quite easy in this matter)

I ask because my views on our existence have been radically changed in the last 3 days, with the personal discovery of the Bacterial Flagellum, and its 40 component motor, which clearly defies natural selection and evolution, and has the clear hallmarks of design.

Recognise the fact that we as humans recognise patterns and organization - we search for Extra terrestrial life by looking for patterns that we recognise as intelligent.

Take a look at the following image, does it look like a natural structure, or something designed and constructed?



50,000 x magnification of the motor of a bacterial flagellum. The drive shaft and screw are missing because they get destroyed in the extraction.

Thoughts? Lets keep it friendly and if possible, away from religion. This is intended to be a discussion on Evolution/natural selection Vs design/creation. Also - this is not about "Creationism".

I look forward to debating with you

[Klodovik]

Take a look at the following image, does it look like a natural structure, or something designed and constructed?

It might look to you like it's "designed" and "constructed" just because we, humans, usualy pick stuff from nature and try to "mimic" it in our products/constructs.

Meaning, I see nothing strange in it.

[Wrangeline]

This is intended to be a discussion on Evolution/natural selection Vs design/creation. Also - this is not about "Creationism".

Contradicting yourself a bit there?

There is no design involved here.
Of course you will find patterns all over the place. Patterns, geometry and complex systems are natural and logical parts of the universe.

Many believe the banana is proof of intelligent design because of how perfect it is designed for humans to eat.

Then again.. it's just a frigging banana and big "WHOOP" to these people for finding one fruit that fits nicely in our hands and is practical to eat..

[Tsun]

Contradicting yourself a bit there?

No, if you look up creationism its a completely different thing. Creationists believe for example that the earth was created 10,000 years ago (roughly). When i use creation Vs Creationism im referring to the difference between designing and creating something as opposed to being a Creationist.

In response to the other post/s, take a look at the motor. There are lots of other details about the motor on the web, and you should have a look. The motor is made of 40 separate parts, all of which are required. Remove any 1 part and the motor does not work. Evolution/natural selection is about the changing of Genes, normally singularly. That gene changes something and the creature grows another leg or a third eye or becomes a different color, that change is either benficial or not and the creature survives or doesnt as a result and the change is either passed on or not : thats a VERY rough description but the principle holds. How could natural selection create a 40 component motor that has to be assembled in a specific order for it work?

Im not saying that Evolution and natural selection dont exist at all, we can clearly see they do. Selective breeding for example could be considered a manual form of natural selection. Choose the attributes you like in a creature/species and breed that creature forsaking the others and that species becomes something different.

It just cant explain everything. Just like Newtonian physics worked for a while to explain the local effects of gravity, once you start getting onto a bigger scale it falls over and another method is required.

[Satertek-]

Creation of evolution.

[Damon7]

IBD

Just because something looks "designed" doesn't mean that it is/was. Just becuase something doesn't look designed, doesn't mean it twernt.

There are holes in evolution and there is the issue of "faith" in religion.

Nuff said

[Jellyfunk]

Intelligent design is still creationism. It's just not young-earth creationism.

Your argument is "I don't understand how the flagellum motor might have evolved, therefore someone must have created it." Or more simply, "I don't understand it, therefore god exists." Which is pretty silly... I don't understand how my room got this messy, but I'm not saying God came by and turned over my stuff.

[Dopecat]

We tend to see world in dualistic way with two extremes and reality being something between em. The creation thing with intelligent creator is about extreme order while the opposite, scientific view is about extreme chaos and randomness.

Personally i think its bit of both (chaos and order) but mostly something inbetween where these forces work in balance. Almost makes me sound like a Yutto. Anyways that is just my limited monkey brain interpretation of reality and id rather not even try to label or name those forces.

[Vipr]

lol asking to ignore the religious elements about some pseudo-sciences is as much a joke as they are to be honest...
You cannot ignore any religious context from them as thats all they are, predominately US religious groups trying to force something they don't understand to fit a book they can't read in anything but a pre-concieved context, and from which they refuse to hear anything against..

[Vipr]

In response to the other post/s, take a look at the motor. There are lots of other details about the motor on the web, and you should have a look. The motor is made of 40 separate parts, all of which are required. Remove any 1 part and the motor does not work. Evolution/natural selection is about the changing of Genes, normally singularly. That gene changes something and the creature grows another leg or a third eye or becomes a different color, that change is either benficial or not and the creature survives or doesnt as a result and the change is either passed on or not : thats a VERY rough description but the principle holds. How could natural selection create a 40 component motor that has to be assembled in a specific order for it work?

You have just answered your own question in the passage beforehand..

[Chrys]

SIGN 4M GAWD OR JUST PLANE LUCK???

Well folks whatcha gonna say huh huh huh??

[Wrangeline]

I just find it somewhat disappointing, although not all that surprising, when so many go straight to the intelligent design philosophy whenever they don't understand something.

I also find it a bit sad when people say that "this" and "that" doesn't have all the answers or that "this" and "that" has big holes in it's logic.

"Holes" or "lack of answers" is simply a result of lack of research and a lack of gained knowledge on various subject matters. You can't expect someone to invent the concept of science by the way of testing, recording and researching and then expect them to have the answer to everything straight away, while at the same time saying that any lack of answers is proof of lack of dependability.

Just because scientific procedures haven't found all the answers to everything yet, that doesn't mean that the procedures are unable to find those answers. It just means that we as human beings haven't gotten that far yet. We live and learn and build on existing knowledge.

Give it some time.

[Bekrowe]

Sorry folks but I'm going to pre-emptively close this down. These types of threads all barrel roll into the bad stuff quickly.