Doctor Nemesis on BS

[Maeventura]

Lol, don't got nano doctorate perked yet

Gonna switch on it after I've updated my symbs a bit, so I can swap to armor with more dmg, hp, nano inits or AR.

And no, not wasting VPs on such items while I only use BS to farm from time to time for a piece of OFAB I needed in the end.

[IHaveHugeNick]

They won't do it often but if they bother to NBS triple you will go down.

I guess that makes you special eh?

[Doctorhyde]

I guess that makes you special eh?

Yep. I'm definitely the only doc that has had a NT kill them. Right? I love being special. You're special too, 'Nick. Really special.

[Ober]

And if we had some stun resistance (without negating it completely ... I think Ober's 90% resist is toooo high) those MAs (and enfs and shades) who can ALWAYS kill me will only SOMETIMES kill me ...

I said 10-20% stun resist, and 70-90% gth resist

Yep. I'm definitely the only doc that has had a NT kill them. Right? I love being special. You're special too, 'Nick. Really special.

TBH, with my current setup, I should be able to outheal NBS+triple, even if we still had 40% caps

[IHaveHugeNick]

Yep. I'm definitely the only doc that has had a NT kill them.

I woudlnt know. But - you're certainly the very first person on this forum ever to come out with conclusion NT is your nemesis because you die by NBS triple.

In fact this conclusion is so new and refreshing , i think someone should present it to devs on closed forum so it will completely change their view on Docs, forever.

[Doctorhyde]

I woudlnt know. But - you're certainly the very first person on this forum ever to come out with conclusion NT is your nemesis because you die by NBS triple.

In fact this conclusion is so new and refreshing , i think someone should present it to devs on closed forum so it will completely change their view on Docs, forever.

Go re-read my posts. I never said nemesis in this thread. I said they hurt bad. Just because the thread starts with the word nemesis doesn't mean every post in here is in 100% agreement.

The only true nemesis (by the old AO usage of it, which is long gone) a doc has at the moment is a trader. Unless you count the zergmind as a nemesis.

Holistic comprehension requires reading and understanding everything.

Most of my post was geared towards problems we have on BS, which inherently means in a group situation. That means I'm not really talking about nemeses in this context. And if you actually pay attention to what I said I never said a NT will nail us completely with a NBS triple, only that it hurts. If you require specifics I'll layt it out further: if just -one- other person has landed a capped special on us then the NT can pop NBS and with a good triple we're flattened.

Would I want to get triple mitigation before GTH mitigation? Hell no. Leave the triple modification out of my suggested fix and its still a very helpful thing for Doctors. But its called brainstorming ... which means you throw out ideas until things are refined.

Do other profs have the same problem? Sure. Other profs can even be completely flattened only by the NBS triple. The difference? If the NT fails to kill them with that first shot then the other person can go kill the NT. When was the last time you saw a doc go slay an attacker in retaliation for a failed gank? Umm ... never? (at least in TL7).

That's the tradeoff. You -know- we're not going to be able to kill you in under 30 seconds and likely never. Period. We can -help- you die but we are the only prof people are not going to bother running away from once they've wasted an alpha on BS. They'll keep coming at us until either their friends or our friends come running to the fray.

Nothing in that part of the equation has really changed over the years. The difference is that our survivability, while relatively high, has significantly been erroded.

Was it clear enough? No one is going to change their minds reading the above, since if they read enough in the past to have made an informed opinion they've heard it ALL before. The important parts of this thread are about ideas we docs are trying to come up with to improve the situations.

Hopefully the thread will get back to that. For the sake of the OP I'll bow out of it so it maybe can, for awhile anyway

[Silq]

My main gripe is that docs can barely kill anyone, but gimps or afkers, and that we are too easily killed.

I would like to enjoy pvp and/or BS too as a doc, but running around (or away would be a good represantation) trying to land ubt and dots (full def makes it way harder, but if you go full agg, you die too fast cos of much more debuffs landing), with poor dmg farming (and thus way harder title farming for the titlelubbers, but I personnaly don't care) is not fun at all.

Generally agree with this, I haven't been taking my doc to the BS for long but it's definitely the least fun prof I've taken to BS.

Stuns are the things that make me swear most, so bump for the improved vaccine idea, or anything that will give us some defence against them - I don't mind dying if I can think of things I could do better or try next time, but being chain stunned and totally helpless while you watch yourself die is want-to-hit-stuff frustrating.

GTH is evil too, but I've only encountered that once so far - I don't know if that's typical. Whereas stuns are a regular and tiresome occurrence.

I'm pretty gimp, so unless I'm just mucking about, the only way I get any satisfaction in BS atm is by sticking with other clanners (or ideally orgmates) and keeping them alive and between me and ommers for as long as possible. BS doesn't really lend itself to that kind of gameplay though - and all our procs are pointless if you try take on a pure support role. I'm still on a learning curve, but so far I'm pretty disappointed, and that's from someone who's always enjoyed mass PvP more than any other aspect of the game.

[Stillian]

I pretty much agree with what Hyde said, and I'm quite happy to be a supporting class, but only if Funcom recognises that being a supporting class means we have to have a better defence against the things that totally remove us from the playing field -namely chain-stuns and GTH. The Zerg should not be survivable, if it's a large or good one, in my opinion.

[rsee]

I really like all of hyde's fixes. Bump for improved vaccine lines. Bump for nano init (i know we asked forever, but maybe there is a reason). Mega bump for our heals being nukes when we are rooted. Minor bump for improved DD.

[Xinc]

I use W&R just to bother the peeps cos of the -100 nanoskill, but it surely could get a dmg and debuff boost for pvp.

For the tactics, I try to do the same, but usually, one of the few that run after you got root/stun/calm. So distraction works, but is quickly ended. It sure allowed me to win a couple of BS, but with real pvpers, such tactic is like... irrelevant. :/

Now running around full def with CH ready, I survive for a longer time, but this doesn't mean we have it easy. We are prolly the nerfest prof in pvp and I think it's time to allow us either do more dmg (but I consider this as less "doc"-like) or to get defenses.

On the zerg to kill a doc-comment: an undisciplined horde is needed to take down a doc, but two profs can without problem if the chair-keyboard interface is capable enough. And I consider that if any prof should survive zergs, it's doc. We are at most an annoyance anyways, where's our dd? I prefer FC ungmping my pvp dmg even more, bt let me survive 50 clammies zerging on me cos I'm doc. But that's how I see the prof.

For the agent subject, well, I am pvmer, so not used to pvp tactics at all. But staying toe-to-toe to good agents who can CH themselves + stun and trigger some dmg proc higher than even all best doc dots combined + AS + higher normal dmg is a challenge. Too bad I dislike pvp that much, if it was a pvm mob (with slightly toned down dmg), I would have loved the challenge.

For the advy nemesis, yeah, it's an annoyance, but when you got zerged, it gets real hot for my poor doc bum. ^^

What W&R do you have that does -100 nano skills? :P

[RedWobe]

The noobiness in this thread is pretty amazing, as Xinc and HugeNick have pointed out. GTH is a problem, Crat procs are a bit of a problem. Dying to NBS triple is not, dying to 5+ people is not. Problems are:

GTH is crazy and should be reworked. Trader should get something to help replenish nanopool under their shield, but should not be "I win" button against casters. I like the idea of vaccine line adding it.

Doctors are the only prof that cannot play full-def. If we could, our naturally pretty good NR would mean something. No point in having nice NR when on full aggro, you pretty much can reset it now, it makes no difference everything lands.

Doctors lack enough offense to kill decently in BS. We should really get some love on that front.

[Maeventura]

What W&R do you have that does -100 nano skills? :P

Bleh, I recalled the -100 and skills, it only does weaponskills. Neeeeeerf! Explains why soldiers still could ams XD

okido, next time I pvp, I'll just use Scythe Omega -_-

[IHaveHugeNick]

Go re-read my posts. I never said nemesis in this thread. I said they hurt bad. Just because the thread starts with the word nemesis doesn't mean every post in here is in 100% agreement.

Did it occur to you, you might be simply unable to formulate your thougts in written language well enough?

Most of my post was geared towards problems we have on BS, which inherently means in a group situation.

A group situation generally means, you should get a group to kill the other group.

And if you actually pay attention to what I said I never said a NT will nail us completely with a NBS triple, only that it hurts.

If you were thinking it this post will prove Docs have problems, it might have quite an opposite effect.

Do other profs have the same problem? Sure. Other profs can even be completely flattened only by the NBS triple. The difference? If the NT fails to kill them with that first shot then the other person can go kill the NT.

No, the other person just dies after another triple. There isnt a single proffesion exisisting in this game able to survive a properly done attack from NBSing NT.

When was the last time you saw a doc go slay an attacker in retaliation for a failed gank? Umm ... never? (at least in TL7).

When was the last time you wondered why it looks like that?

That's the tradeoff. You -know- we're not going to be able to kill you in under 30 seconds and likely never. Period.

And as Engineer i'm not going to be able to kill you , not only within 30 seconds, but never, ever. So its a trade off for what?

Nothing in that part of the equation has really changed over the years. The difference is that our survivability, while relatively high, has significantly been erroded.

Eroded ...exactly how? By massive increase in HP? By 30% cap? By perma iBehe, gsf, reflects on Battlestations? Or is by buckets of heal modifiers on every new item? Is it by 3k HP new channeler? Is it by endless nano?

Explain it to me please, how did your survivability erode exactly , and have this in mind - i have one char entirely designed and specialized for taking out opposite side Docs, i see very well how things change for them and nothing is eroding, at all.

I have a lot of sympathy for undergeared PVM Docs, since i have one myself, and playing with 14k HP can be hardly called fun, but all the +25k HP whiners that still want more survivability are nothing but amusing. Reality is, after very bad first months after LE launch, Docs not only can make absolutely outstanding pvp tanks, but now they can keep their teams alive up to previously unseen levels, due to absurd new team heals.

And you are in state like that, because you wanted it like that - the idea to do 50% heal reduction in PVP, and widely expand offensive power instead, was completely flamed in here, apparently entire doc community just wanted mor heals mor hp instead.

[Docharmm]

Whats with NT giving docs some problem? I can safely say i never ever had a problem with NTs. Actually NTs and fixer are the 2 profs that am happy to see running around solo. If u die to NBS suck it up every other prof have the same/similar problem vs NBS

But about survivability, i have noticed that it has increased by alot, i escape more alphas than i did b4 and its getting better as patches are released. Now if we can get more pvp dmg to go with it my doc will be complete. Ihave u said it about the new team heals those things are just overkill, with heal eff it can get up to 6k per cast which is crazy

To those complaining about crats, go buy urselfs the crat nemesis nano, the crat wont be chaining stuns anymore if he can cast it with the debuff

[Zacharyas]

To those complaining about crats, go buy urselfs the crat nemesis nano, the crat wont be chaining stuns anymore if he can cast it with the debuff

We are not worried about a Crat's Stun Nano, but about his stun procs, against which 'Fill Inbox' does absolutely nothing.

And for the stun nano, 'Living Embalming', it requires 818 PM. Since the new Speech nano 'Improved Heroic Measures' requires 1913 PM, debuffing 750 won't stop them from casting it. And since we are almost entirely playing full off, neither the 110% NR Check nor the 1,2k AR check will make an noticeable difference.


So, our so-called nemesis nano does absolutely nothing to wreck havoc on our 'victim profession'. Please inform yourself before calling people whiners. Thanks.

[Ober]

It's -500 nanoskills, which will make crat nanos have a harder time landing on advies and other lubchildren.

-750 nano every 3s, I wish GTH was like that...

3750 nano drained in 15s... woooo!

This is obviously ment for tl5, just like UBT, and our nanoresist.

[Doctorhyde]

Did it occur to you, you might be simply unable to formulate your thougts in written language well enough?

Nope. When the huge majority of readers "get" what I'm trying to say I'm perfectly happy to write off the one who can't as having something else wrong with them. I'm not here to write everything in a way that the lowest common denominator can pick it up.

I made my points, you made yours. The rest of your post, as much as I bothered with (I had to stop a bit of the way through it, I simply refuse to read posts where people have to quote each point individually, its the sign of someone who is never going to be done and so best to just let them rave), was just more of the same.

Like I said I'm out of this thread for now. I'm just making it real clear to you that no, I don't feel I have any language problems. Feel free to post your rebuttal here. Make sure you get that last word in.

PS. Lets just be super duper clear for people like you who don't seem to realize it ... I was trying to help simulate the effects of being able to use our inherent Nano Resist while on DEF (and I'm sure I even said something that would have given most people a clue about that). Honestly? NR on DEF would have us resist FAR more damage from a triple (as in 30-100% instead of just 30%). However I really don't care about that part. It was an afterthought. So rip that portion out of the suggestion and it will still be a suggestion worth having. Latching on to that one little chunk of something larger is just a cheap tactic to derail the thread.

[Plier]

What both amuses me and makes me very sad is that Engineer is never on anyone's "how do I kill" list.

[Zacharyas]

Docs and Engineers take too long to take out all on your own on battlestation to be worth the effort. Gang up on them or just leave them, they are not that much of a threat.

In a 1v1 duel it's a different situation though, but most pvp is on bs anyway, and this topic is on Doctor Nemesis on BS. I don't think an Engineer is our nemesis in any way, except for we can't burst them to death

[TheBaron]

What both amuses me and makes me very sad is that Engineer is never on anyone's "how do I kill" list.

What?
Engineers are an utter pain in the ass to actually kill, if they play evasively (i.e - good).

Same as doctors.
Doctors are still hands down the best class to have on any team on the BS, when played correctly/has good gear/both.

The rest is nothing but semantics.
Cant' go full def? Pft.
Don't like GTH? Don't care.

Even with those "problems" Doctors are still hands down the best class to have on any team on the BS when played correctly/has good gear/both.

If you want to be able to go full def, sure, want GTH resistance? Ok. But you should have to pay for it, because as the complete package now doctors are very good. "Fixes" should be reserved for classes that are actually broken.

And right now that is practically noone.