Doctor Nemesis on BS

[Kazeran]

its great you think every doc in game wants to team on BS.... its not that way

As far as paying for something we would like, its not very needed, GTH makes us usless for 60+seconds, sure you wouldnt like a -5k all weapon/nano skills running on any prof you play that depends on a weapon instead of nano, or not being able to go full def because of some odd reason (idk what it is ;p )

Most of us could probely careless if we get nano drained, even if its full drain, but only if it lasted 10-15 seconds, not 60+, i dont think asking to resist something that powerful that cripples us that bad is wrong

As far as being "broken" our dmg is alittle off huh?, we do pay for our rewards with having pretty low killing power, and we do die very easy to certian profs, asking to have a better chance to not get our arses handed to us by those profs isnt very wrong, seeing how our chances of killing them are close to 0

IF we were asking for more def and off. toys i would agree we need to give something up, but we arnt

[Ober]

Docs have a publisity problem, caused by gimps who fail to kill docs, or idiots who fail to kill docs with a zerg.

Doc in itself isn't as strong as you lot think.
The strength of doctors in this game, is reversed proportional to other players skill.

Even my 24.5k hp (w/o bi) drops like a brick to skilled players (like the ones in my org), or any random crat using chain stun procs.

I wouldn't mind GTH etc so much, if I had the possibility to actually kill the trader first.
But hey! Traders got dot remover perks, not to mention other random stuff that removes dots..

[TheBaron]

its great you think every doc in game wants to team on BS.... its not that way

It's a little irrelevent, Im sure enfs want to "tank" on BS, and some soldiers may not want to do damage on BS, or traders may not want to drain on BS.. its a bit silly to argue about ti.. if you want to play a doctor to its utmost strength, you have to play to its strength. This goes for any class really.

Soldiers are best when they try and do damage, traders are best when they try and stay behind direct fire and CC/Drain/Generally be a pain in the ass, etc.

As far as paying for something we would like, its not very needed, GTH makes us usless for 60+seconds, sure you wouldnt like a -5k all weapon/nano skills running on any prof you play that depends on a weapon instead of nano, or not being able to go full def because of some odd reason (idk what it is ;p )

But on the flip side, anyone attacking someone a doctor is healing has 0 damage, ever. The player is unkillable. In effect, it is like you remove their entire damage by your mere presence. This is similar in effect to a GTH to their damage. Yes, of course you would be healing someone else, but your heals effectively nullify your enemies' damage, therefore hi, you're making an impact as much as being GTH'ed does to you (by shutting off your heals, you're shutting off their damage).

I personally think GTH duration is too long, but it is the concept I am referring to, I think 20-30 seconds would be best, at tops.

Most of us could probely careless if we get nano drained, even if its full drain, but only if it lasted 10-15 seconds, not 60+, i dont think asking to resist something that powerful that cripples us that bad is wrong

No, but there neesd to be something that can kill you. A doctor that is not debuffed has 0% chance of dying. Ever. Until people can get enough ranged DPS to simply outdamage BI.. there will be need for stuns, debuffs, and other affects to be able to kill doctors. It just makes sense.

As far as being "broken" our dmg is alittle off huh?, we do pay for our rewards with having pretty low killing power, and we do die very easy to certian profs, asking to have a better chance to not get our arses handed to us by those profs isnt very wrong, seeing how our chances of killing them are close to 0

Doctors are like inverse shades. You either "Die" (alphakilling a good doctor is almost impossible btw if they are nanomage) to GTH which is only 1 class... or you are unkillable.

Yep. Unkillable. Entirely.

Why is this like shades? Because they will kill anyone they can perk (maybe not soldiers). Anyone they cannot perk is going to laugh at the shade.

This is still roughly balanced. "But the shade can still kill people!" you say.
Well, roll a shade. The shade cannot walk around and indeffinitely keep people alive with heals.

[Ober]

It's a little irrelevent, Im sure enfs want to "tank" on BS, and some soldiers may not want to do damage on BS, or traders may not want to drain on BS.. its a bit silly to argue about ti.. if you want to play a doctor to its utmost strength, you have to play to its strength. This goes for any class really.

Why docs got Solo titles then?

Soldiers are best when they try and do damage, traders are best when they try and stay behind direct fire and CC/Drain/Generally be a pain in the ass, etc.

Soldiers are best when they think.
Traders I agree with, tho they're probably the best when shutting down the nearest doctor.

But on the flip side, anyone attacking someone a doctor is healing has 0 damage, ever. The player is unkillable. In effect, it is like you remove their entire damage by your mere presence. This is similar in effect to a GTH to their damage. Yes, of course you would be healing someone else, but your heals effectively nullify your enemies' damage, therefore hi, you're making an impact as much as being GTH'ed does to you (by shutting off your heals, you're shutting off their damage).

Killing the doctor stops him healing. Killing the trader does nothing.
Or in most cases, send one person to dd on doctor (forcing him to heal self), rest take out the other targets.

I personally think GTH duration is too long, but it is the concept I am referring to, I think 20-30 seconds would be best, at tops.

You like the concept of someone shutting you almost completely down for 60 seconds with one push of a button? And if it fumbles, press it again in 1.5seconds? And there's no defense against it, besides having a zerg kill the trader BEFORE he does anything?

No, but there neesd to be something that can kill you. A doctor that is not debuffed has 0% chance of dying. Ever. Until people can get enough ranged DPS to simply outdamage BI.. there will be need for stuns, debuffs, and other affects to be able to kill doctors. It just makes sense.

Theres a lot of ways to kill a doctor.
But people have a problem with doctors, because they work differently than other profs they try to kill. Damage over Time does not work on doctor.
That seems to be hard for people to understand. So people just keep mashing their specials when they'r available, rather than waiting for the doc to go 50% hp or w/e and finish him.

Most of the time, the only thing stopping people from killing docs, is idiocy..

This is still roughly balanced. "But the shade can still kill people!" you say.

And docs can kill gimps and idiots, what's your point?

[wyldebeast]

Same as doctors.
Doctors are still hands down the best class to have on any team on the BS, when played correctly/has good gear/both.

The rest is nothing but semantics.
Cant' go full def? Pft.
Don't like GTH? Don't care.

Even with those "problems" Doctors are still hands down the best class to have on any team on the BS when played correctly/has good gear/both.

Wow great. We're reduced to being the best profession to BE TEAMED WITH. How about looking at where you're at? This is the doc forum. We are interested in how it is TO PLAY A DOC. Sure, it's nice to know that we're loved by everyone and his dog, but if the profession itself is lacking in so many ways it's not fun to play it something is wrong. And as people have already said, there is more to the game than teamed BS PvP.

[Stillian]

What both amuses me and makes me very sad is that Engineer is never on anyone's "how do I kill" list.

I've got to say, as much as I disagree with him in this thread, Alco is not easy to kill. This is, however, not a first-hand observation.

The rest is nothing but semantics.
Cant' go full def? Pft.
Don't like GTH? Don't care.

I have no idea what Profession you play but, for the sake of an argument, I will presume you play a Fixer.

You are a Fixer. You run about, AS'ing people, Bursting, etc etc with much happiness. You may not be the best Fixer in the world, but you could walk out of an ordinary BS with say, 10 kills.

You get GTH'd. Afterwards...

You are a (still) Fixer. You (still) run about, (still) AS'ing people, Bursting, etc etc with much happiness. You may not be the best Fixer in the world, but you could (still) walk out of an ordinary BS with say, 10 kills.

Your offense is hindered by GTH because you can't root or snare, for example, but you'll live. Your defense remains the same, since it is passive.

And then you're a Doctor. You run about, in my case AS'ing people, in other cases Blaze DoT'ing.

You get GTH'd.

You may as well go fap for a while.

You tell me how one nano wiping out my offense and defense is not ludicrous, and I'll buy you plenty beer if you're ever in Scotland. And don't say we still have defensive perks and items. Stims heal an average of 900 every 40 seconds, say. Book heals about 1k every 5 minutes. Enhanced Heal heals about 1.5k, iirc, every minute or so. Ditto for team heal. BGH heals 5kish every 10 minutes, and can only be used once every 10 seconds. So, if hit hard, my remaining defense is going to disappear and not be usable again for 40s, 1m, 5 minutes, 1m and 10 minutes.

It's a little irrelevent, Im sure enfs want to "tank" on BS, and some soldiers may not want to do damage on BS, or traders may not want to drain on BS.. its a bit silly to argue about ti.. if you want to play a doctor to its utmost strength, you have to play to its strength. This goes for any class really.

This is correct, and it's why we tell newer Doctor's to remember they are healers first on Battlestation. Except for the fact that we are not healers after the effects of one, single nano. A nano which we cannot defend against, cannot remove, cannot offset by using other parts of our toolset.

I'm stopping here, if you've not got it by now, I invite you to **** off and troll some other forum, because your contribution here is, quite frankly, biased and not well thought out at all.

[rakhabit]

I think the biggest imbalance in the doctor's favor is how cheap heals are.
Make heals expensive so that running out of nano by carelessly healing is an actual possibility, and the good doctors will be the ones who manage their nanopool wisely.

At that point, idiots like The Baron can shut up about docs being unkillable forever, and maybe we can actually get some of the other tools we need.

[nyy5alh]

Ever used free movenent, battle prepared virus scanners/nano doctorate perks, eh?

I agree. Are you guys using defenses FC has already given us?? A lot of the problems that the op and Hyde bring up, I find to be only momentary issues...

[Stillian]

Which part of chain stuns do you find 'momentary'? Not to be harsh, because I reckon you're a good Doc, I've seen you a few times, but I don't find anything about chain-stuns or GTH momentary.

[TheBaron]

I have no idea what Profession you play but, for the sake of an argument, I will presume you play a Fixer.

You are a Fixer. You run about, AS'ing people, Bursting, etc etc with much happiness. You may not be the best Fixer in the world, but you could walk out of an ordinary BS with say, 10 kills.

You get GTH'd. Afterwards...

You are a (still) Fixer. You (still) run about, (still) AS'ing people, Bursting, etc etc with much happiness. You may not be the best Fixer in the world, but you could (still) walk out of an ordinary BS with say, 10 kills.

Your offense is hindered by GTH because you can't root or snare, for example, but you'll live. Your defense remains the same, since it is passive.

And then you're a Doctor. You run about, in my case AS'ing people, in other cases Blaze DoT'ing.

You get GTH'd.

You may as well go fap for a while.

You leave out the part where the doctor heals the NT and triples the fixer into oblivion. Your heal resulted in the Fixer's death as much as the GTH on you stops you from functioning.

You also forget how often the trader is being obliterated by things you laugh at. If you survive a reaver alpha, thast fine, you are 10%, back at 100% in 1 second. The trader isnt. The trader is about to die. Any time you survive someone's alpha, or two people trying to kill you - That trader is probably already in the decon unit from the same treatment.

Why do doctors forget this vital point?

You tell me how one nano wiping out my offense and defense is not ludicrous, and I'll buy you plenty beer if you're ever in Scotland. And don't say we still have defensive perks and items. Stims heal an average of 900 every 40 seconds, say. Book heals about 1k every 5 minutes. Enhanced Heal heals about 1.5k, iirc, every minute or so. Ditto for team heal. BGH heals 5kish every 10 minutes, and can only be used once every 10 seconds. So, if hit hard, my remaining defense is going to disappear and not be usable again for 40s, 1m, 5 minutes, 1m and 10 minutes.

I already said the duration should be 30s, not 1min. Also, you forget it is a trader doing this. If some MA runs up and lands two hits on a MA, that trader is serious trouble. Traders by definition do not have time for long, laddered debuffs and drains. Their debuffs (all of them) need to be very fast, instant, and have big, big effects because if they stand around casting things they will be obliterated by all the stuff doctors can just shrug off.

This is correct, and it's why we tell newer Doctor's to remember they are healers first on Battlestation. Except for the fact that we are not healers after the effects of one, single nano. A nano which we cannot defend against, cannot remove, cannot offset by using other parts of our toolset.

And newer soldiers arent plagued by Borrow Reflect? Other classes arent screwed by drains? Etc. Traders exist to F*** people up from the sidelines.

Doctors exist to keep people alive.
People. As in plural. As in not just you. That MA you healed is your dps. That agent you saved from the MA beating him to death is your DPS.

Doctors should have the choice to spec for damage, but it should nerf healing to sub-adventurer level in exchange for damage which matches that. (what "that" should be is up for debate) but it should severely impact survivability.

Perhaps doctors should be able to get a 100% resistance to GTH and Stuns, at the cost of -60% heal modifier.

But there's just no basis for a "LOL WE NEED LOVE" call, unless you are a bad doctor, don't know how to play, or are being severely outgeared by your opponents, which in some doctor's case I am sure it is an issue, if you are a 15k hp doc running up into ridiculously geared enforcers and agents and shades and traders and you know-who.. you will have problems.. as you should when fighting someone way above your level.

[Silq]

Doctors are still hands down the best class to have on any team on the BS, when played correctly/has good gear/both.

Team play certainly seems to be where it's at for a doc, my survivability increases dramatically if I'm working with just one other person, let alone a team.

The downside is a lot of people don't want to team on BS cos they're more interested in farming solo kill titles, which makes my job a lot harder - and I feel a little resentment at keeping them alive to farm up their solo titles while I get nada. Perhaps FC should've gone the whole hog in taking WoWs BG template and made just one kill count, regardless of whether in a team or solo - not sure why they'd split it in the first place other than for e-peen.

Fortunately I have org mates to hit BS with, but the gameplay without them is often very poor.

A single kill count would make a huge difference to people's willingness to team in BS, and then statements about a doc's usefulness in team PvP would have more relevance.

[Stillian]

I'd really like to know what profession you play. I'm going to come on your forums and suggest you either get to pick an offense or a defense, because you z0mg can't have both.

Our defense is completely redundant in so many situations. Not nerfed, not minimal, absolutely redundant.
Our offense is so very often pathetic, and you claim that it should be a choice between this or a defense that is even easier to destroy.

All in all, it sounds like you want us to be glued to the screen, unable to do anything more than keep you alive so you can +1 your score. And I'm not being unreasonable - your changes would result in us needing to be in a team 24/7 just in case we came across a 210 soldier with pistols.

[Graftmage]

Our defense is completely redundant in so many situations. Not nerfed, not minimal, absolutely redundant.

So, 15k heal, every 4 seconds is not a defence, lol..

[Maeventura]

I disagree with the fact docs should be a teamable prof in pvp.

We get no love, nor from our side in BS, nor from FC, with all those potential nemesis profs. Why should I, who can be disabled so easily due to tons of profs with stunperks or chainstuns from crats or NSD from MPs or GTH from traders and any other debuff that cancels our defensive AND offensive capabilities, care bout the other profs?

Sure if I leap into a zerg, my chances to get out alive should be slim, but imo, docs should never be able to be killed solo or even two people.

Hell, compare the offensive rating of every prof with their defensive rating, and you will see doc having medium defensive rating (all those CiB/coon/acrobat profs got more defensive rating in my perspective), only heals in fact and they got lowest offensive rating (dots, if we got time to land them, + weapon damage, which is often outdamaged by TL4 toons of other profs).
All others got huge offensive rating + decent or very good defensive rating.

Of course, we got prolly lowest rs from all profs, meaning we can't outrun anything.

It's not just setup and skill, docs are always screwed, how much you can turn this around. Docs shouldn't need to use 1B setups just to be able to function like they should. Most profs work very well with even a tenth of that budget.

No, docs deserve stun and GTH resistance, even if not complete, at least very high.

NTs are in the same kind of trouble as us, except their defense is even worse than ours (but it's compensated by their offense though).

For those that forget: many profs can nullify dmg with special blockers and coon and all those evasive and AAD perks (not getting hit is best way to nullify dmg). Docs just compensate the dmg, but don't nullify.

[Ober]

So, 15k heal, every 4 seconds is not a defence, lol..

No 15k heal when you have no nano
No 15k heal when you're heal modi debuffed
No 15k heal when you're stunned
No 15k heal when you're drained enough skills
No 15k heal when you're nsd'd
No 15k heal when the opponent does more than you hp in damage within 4 s
No 4s heal when ubtd
No 4s heal when under red dusk
No 4s heal when crat init debuffed
No 4s heal when going full def to be able to resist anything mentioned above.

And more.

[Stillian]

No 15k heal when you have no nano
No 15k heal when you're heal modi debuffed
No 15k heal when you're stunned
No 15k heal when you're drained enough skills
No 15k heal when you're nsd'd
No 15k heal when the opponent does more than you hp in damage within 4 s
No 4s heal when ubtd
No 4s heal when under red dusk
No 4s heal when crat init debuffed
No 4s heal when going full def to be able to resist anything mentioned above.

And more.

Thanks, I doubt I could have thought of that many to be honest QFT

[Graftmage]

No 15k heal when you have no nano
No 15k heal when you're heal modi debuffed
No 15k heal when you're stunned
No 15k heal when you're drained enough skills
No 15k heal when you're nsd'd
No 15k heal when the opponent does more than you hp in damage within 4 s
No 4s heal when ubtd
No 4s heal when under red dusk
No 4s heal when crat init debuffed
No 4s heal when going full def to be able to resist anything mentioned above.

And more.

thats called balance

[Maeventura]

thats called balance

What balance?

Balance between surviving 1s longer than any other prof, but unable to kill any other mentioned prof unless the player is gimp and cannot pay it's prof?

Roll a doc and l2p before balancing that utter crap graft.

We got virtually 0 offense, and the only defense we got is soo easily taken apart, making us 100% useless.

If you call that balance, let's meet for some RL business, I think I'll be rich in the ed of the day with you.

[Stillian]

thats called balance

Jfc, I thought you were a tool on Hellcom, but you're a seriously stunned c**t, ain't you? Balance would be if we could offset any of those things.

Balance is synonymous with neutral. i.e. One side is no more overpowered than the other.

Balance would be.

Doctor gets Red Dusk'd. Doctor CAN remove, or offset Red Dusk, to an extent.
Doctor gets Stunned. Doctor CAN remove, or offset Stuns, to an extent.

etc etc

Doctor being unable to remove, offset, work around, dodge, evade, resist, those effects, is not balanced. It is one sided.

And you're a ****, **** off back to the NT forums.

[Cyberleet]

[*] agent : got stun procs and some sort of dmg proc doing huge dmg (got hit something for near 2k/hit from that sort of proc, dunno what it was)

Not stun procs, but a stun perk. There is two procs with damage from the +damage nanos. One is a direct hit, second is a dot.

If agent don't kill you in conjuntion with stun-perk they probably won't at all, but then they can root you and run away.
With adds, I guess agents does the most significant damage. IE dead.

I am not very tempted to get VP with my Doc, it's a horrible experience.

I'd say, Adv, keeper and NR2-agents has better surrival than doc overall, but who has the better damage?
(Edit: Of course, the extra kick in damage makes them surrive encounters most but still...)

Wouldn't mind the low damage if Doc can get some better surrival that's relevant in group-pvp, as Ober post, it's a lot of debuffs.

Feel free to shut down my ability to heal others with a debuff or two, but do the Doc have to always die in the same go?

How they cope in one vs one pvp doesn't mean anything, as is the FC view aswell.