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Thread: Friday with Means - May 22nd, 2009

  1. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by shadowgod View Post
    a nailgun is not always the right tool for driving nails.

    linux is not the right tool for playing pc games.
    Exactly.

    Just like a hammer excels in some situations, so does windows.

    But in most situations linux > windows by far imho.

    PS. I still dualboot Vista, but to be honest I almost never boot it up again. I only recently (5 months ago or so) started to use Linux, with no fanboy reasons to be biased in favor of linux or anything. Had to get help from Hacre/Xyphos/etc to learn the ropes, but now, pure <3.
    Lupusceleri L220/30/70 Agent -- Advisor of Spartans -- equip endgame AR setup endgame def setup <3 Azs wearer of Cheree's pants
    Arrowsmith -- Arafellin -- Alphacenta -- Aesculapias -- Wolfseye -- Lysdexic


    TL5 enf twink: im out those MPs are to overpowered

    crattey: The Balance Discussion forum. Where common sense goes to die.

  2. #122
    Means and Co. has a whole lot of things on their plate as it is. Perhaps a coop port and profit sharing model with the likes of Transgaming will be a more viable option.

    The Linux/Mac userbase are often overlooked but its potential cannot be ignored. A press release by Apple or a buzz in the Linux community will most definitely bring new blood to this game.
    Last edited by Xaruda; May 22nd, 2009 at 18:58:10.

  3. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by Mastablasta View Post
    Please note that the majority of what gives AoC it's amazing looks is the extremely high resolution textures used in it. AO will not look like that. What you can expect is something like running Doom in the Doomsday engine without installing any high res packs
    Since I'm not knowledgeable about game design and all that goes into it, I was wondering why it wouldn't be possible, since it seems like in order for the new AO engine to hit its release target the devs from AoC and Secret World might have to help out and contribute some man hours to the project, for AO to borrow some textures from AoC to help expedite the process of upgrading the game? The textures from the Dreamworld demo that was linked earlier in this thread sure look higher res (or at least higher quality, since again I'm not up on game design lingo) and would be a welcome addition to AO's scenery.
    Amosco -- Brokest Trader on RK2
    Coope -- His bot is his best friend

    Originally posted by Dark Kensai
    Promising the stars and then hitting the customer with a bat so that they see stars is not the same thing.


    Originally Posted by sobeguy
    If you really want this chair, why not just get a phalloplasty and address your real concern?


    Become a Lifer

  4. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by Hacre View Post
    I'm hoping, however, that the new engine will function if not in Wine, at least in Cedega. It's hardly "some emulator hack" anyway, given that Wine Is Not an Emulator. It also works just fine with a great many apps, including modern games.
    Sounds like something Wine/Cedega should take care of though.
    They're "implementing" the windows API for Linux. If AoC runs on windows but not on cedega, it sounds like a bug in cedega that needs to be fixed.
    Formerly Vhab.
    Once upon a time ruled a server. And then sold out. Sorry.

  5. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by Amosco View Post
    Since I'm not knowledgeable about game design and all that goes into it, I was wondering why it wouldn't be possible, since it seems like in order for the new AO engine to hit its release target the devs from AoC and Secret World might have to help out and contribute some man hours to the project, for AO to borrow some textures from AoC to help expedite the process of upgrading the game? The textures from the Dreamworld demo that was linked earlier in this thread sure look higher res (or at least higher quality, since again I'm not up on game design lingo) and would be a welcome addition to AO's scenery.
    In a nutshell: the engine is just technology.
    AO will become a bit prettier due to a new lighting model and such, but it won't become AoC just because the engine changed.
    The main gain is being ready for the future and increased performance on modern hardware.
    To really make AO prettier art will have to be redone, which is time consuming and expensive.
    Formerly Vhab.
    Once upon a time ruled a server. And then sold out. Sorry.

  6. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by Vhab View Post
    In a nutshell: the engine is just technology.
    AO will become a bit prettier due to a new lighting model and such, but it won't become AoC just because the engine changed.
    The main gain is being ready for the future and increased performance on modern hardware.
    To really make AO prettier art will have to be redone, which is time consuming and expensive.
    But you didn't fully answer my question. Why couldn't they reuse some of the textures (at least for ground and plants and maybe buildings) from AoC to wrap around the current wireframes in AO? It would seem like, if they are borrowing man hours from other games, it wouldn't be a huge leap to borrow some textures rather than having to reinvent the wheel for everything in AO.
    Amosco -- Brokest Trader on RK2
    Coope -- His bot is his best friend

    Originally posted by Dark Kensai
    Promising the stars and then hitting the customer with a bat so that they see stars is not the same thing.


    Originally Posted by sobeguy
    If you really want this chair, why not just get a phalloplasty and address your real concern?


    Become a Lifer

  7. #127
    Quote Originally Posted by Amosco View Post
    But you didn't fully answer my question. Why couldn't they reuse some of the textures (at least for ground and plants and maybe buildings) from AoC to wrap around the current wireframes in AO? It would seem like, if they are borrowing man hours from other games, it wouldn't be a huge leap to borrow some textures rather than having to reinvent the wheel for everything in AO.
    It would look very out of place.
    And it would still be quite time consuming to mix and match textures.
    But the largest bulk of textures are too complex anyways. Like all buildings, monsters and items. These textures can't just be replaced as they're created for a specific model.
    Formerly Vhab.
    Once upon a time ruled a server. And then sold out. Sorry.

  8. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by Amosco View Post
    But you didn't fully answer my question. Why couldn't they reuse some of the textures (at least for ground and plants and maybe buildings) from AoC to wrap around the current wireframes in AO? It would seem like, if they are borrowing man hours from other games, it wouldn't be a huge leap to borrow some textures rather than having to reinvent the wheel for everything in AO.
    They could do so. The stopping reasons for that would be any copyright reasons that are in place. I don't know how legal issues like that work, but there may be some due to the nature of AO being published by FC alone and AoC being published by Eidos...
    Apart from that, if you have some things high res and others very low res, things start to look odd...
    Thor Mastablasta Hammersmith - Level 220, AI 30, LE 70 Clan Atrox Nano Technician - Setup
    The Red Brotherhood

    I'm a Nano-Technician, don't ever expect me to fight unbuffed, alone or fair.

    Means: about f'ing time :P
    Satenia: heresy <3
    Znore: Mastablasta <3
    Kinkstaah: I have agro from many mobs ;(
    Madarab: we are aoe class, we are supose to use pistols
    Marxgorm: the NT toolset does not fit into my raiding tactics

  9. #129
    "...With additional resources from the larger technical team we hope to bring the Dreamworld engine to AO in 2009. "

    I take that to mean they're gonna borrow a lot of the engine coders from AoC to get that engine up to speed on AO as fast as possible. Enno, and possibly other people who worked on the Ogre engine, are leaving so it's pretty clear that AO will be borrowing people from AoC to do the job. Nice turnaround for all those ppl claiming that AoC has been stealing ppl from AO the past few years...
    I am Dagget

  10. #130
    Quote Originally Posted by Mastablasta View Post
    Plenty of people state that poor performance and outdated visuals were a large part of why they moved on to a different game that offered better performance and better visual quality.
    Looks isn't all that this is about, performance on more modern hardware is.
    Xaun is a perfect example of a player who no longer plays directly as a result of poor gaming performance.
    Quote Originally Posted by Insane666 View Post
    will we get aoc boobs too in ao with dreamworld engine?;p ( should be the first model you send for rework to the artists!!!111 )

    PS. personally im very happy to hear about us gettin the dreamworld engine in ao, i got a habit of trying out most of the new mmorpgs that i find interesting, and gotta say this: aoc has pretty amazing gfx, and it comes from some1 that played only the dx9 ver of it + i couldnt set the details to 100% w.o loosing too much on performance neither

    heads will roll?;p

    cant wait for it,,,,
    Quote Originally Posted by Mastablasta View Post
    Please note that the majority of what gives AoC it's amazing looks is the extremely high resolution textures used in it. AO will not look like that. What you can expect is something like running Doom in the Doomsday engine without installing any high res packs
    Just to comment here. I downloaded and installed the 7 day free trial of AoC after hearing about this. To my surprise I am actually excited and happy about this. Last time I saw AoC's engine it was as Means describes "ungainly". I mean it had major performance issues and bugs.. but it wasn't even released so that isn't saying much.

    I did the "step test" where you just keep pushing your settings up till the game takes a performance hit that makes it not playable. I never hit that mark. I was able to completely max all settings (save anti-aliasing only used x4 because higher is really pointless on my size monitor). That is bloom lighting, full anistropic filtering, highest resolution models/textures/effects/etc.

    The game ran at a constant 65-89fps.

    Furthermore, zoning was near instant (at least 5-10x faster than it is for me in AO). Despite the fact that the zones I am entering had probably 10x-100x the polys on screen and textures that are probably close to double in resolution as AO..

    So yes this is a very very good move. I am impressed with the work they've done on the Dreamworld engine by far.

    AO will not suffer from this enhancement.. I will be looking forward to them updating the models/textures/etc in AO as this engine is integrated.

  11. #131
    Yea, AoC runs very well now compared to what it used to. At least I had no problems whatsoever previously.
    Thor Mastablasta Hammersmith - Level 220, AI 30, LE 70 Clan Atrox Nano Technician - Setup
    The Red Brotherhood

    I'm a Nano-Technician, don't ever expect me to fight unbuffed, alone or fair.

    Means: about f'ing time :P
    Satenia: heresy <3
    Znore: Mastablasta <3
    Kinkstaah: I have agro from many mobs ;(
    Madarab: we are aoe class, we are supose to use pistols
    Marxgorm: the NT toolset does not fit into my raiding tactics

  12. #132
    For the 9th anniversary of AO can we have a new release. A new advertising campaign centered around the the re-release of AO using the new Dreamworld engine and the box contains all the expansions and booster packs only with the models of everything in the game unscaled to AoC standards using DX9 and hopefully the working DX10 rendering engine.

    By then the balancing issues should be further along, new content will have been introduced and the more honerous issues with AO on Dreamworld will have been ironed out.

    People with "older" machines can just turn all the settings to min and still run just like they can on AoC and those who invested cash to upgrade in the last 2-3 years can discover a brand new AO all over again.

    I'd rather buy a dvd with the upgraded models than spend hours downloading it again. Also when you put a new box out it gets the attention of those who missed it before who will think its a "new" game and it might entice some froobs into upgrading. Maybe throw in a key for a free oribtal apartment as a bonus.
    Sometimes, you just have to charge in with both hands blazing and hope they drop before you do.

    I won't join your org, but I may join your cause...for a price
    .

    All must bow before receiving my blessings

  13. #133
    i think the move to go with the same engine thats on AoC and upcoming TSW, is a good choice for reasons already mentioned..

    it seems like such a waste to spend all that time and money on orge then to drop it like a sack of potatoes.

    but it is a good decision in the long run i think.

    but please dont toy with us because a engine has been promised for far to long already.

    when it's ready you really do need to spend some money advertising the game.. believe it or not ad's DO work, i was attracted to the game from a ad on yahoo, i had no idea what the game was about or had even heard of it before then, but the "play for free" lured me in..

    you need to spend more on advertising and sell the "Froob" aspect.. this is the saving grace of AO imo, lots of froobs who stick it out and get their legs upgrade.. i know many such as my self who started froob and then upgraded.


    Quote Originally Posted by Aethyrguard View Post
    lmfao.. nice one.. wtb a Mature rating on AO as well.. it is more suited for it than Hyboria anyway.. There should be half naked dancers in Rompa and those two chicks constantly fighting should also be at least topless for proper entertainment value!
    lol
    well in a way i agree, this game is geared towards adults.. thats actually a selling point imo, since so many other games out there are kiddie geared.

    Quote Originally Posted by nitr0 View Post
    and they said a thousand times already new textures for everything are a "no no", as it would be way to much expense...
    well if they was smart they would have worked with very large textures in house and then scaled them down for release but i guess they must not have then, and thats a shame since the ship has sailed.

    Quote Originally Posted by drakonman View Post
    seriously, all people concerned about the system specs should really pack up a few bucks and upgrade or quit playing games. Everyone wants a higher player base, but we all know this is not possible with dated graphics. The new gamer generations want lots of eye candy and you can be sure they have the hardware to run it. Noone will ever buy a game that looks like 1998 and has a quad core processor and at least a 9 series geforce or 4xxx ati card, they need to feed those monsters with state of the art graphics.

    Ofc nobody wants a game that runs like crap, but seriously there's a minimum level of hardware that a gamer must meet...ffs even winblows has system requirements higher than most peoples systems it seems.

    If they decided to stick with aoc engine, that's fine, but if all they upgrade is the physics and lighting/shadows and the textures remain the same, we can safely say all this effort is in vain. All this engine upgrade issue has to be a vast and full improvement. Starting with the actual engine, to the meshes, polycount, textures, animations and last but not least, a very important component of the gameplay is SOUND.

    Currently the immersion feeling that the game should have is totally missing.
    Let me give you an example: cool sounds

    As you can observe, beyond the actual gameplay and graphics, the sound of weapons clashing with the armor, the toon being hit gasping, the sound effects of specials and the crisp sound of critical strikes gives you that edge that AO in it's current state will never deliver.
    a game like this you gotta find out what the avg system is and build for it.. current AO engine runs like snot even on decent hardware, you can brute force it but it's not very efficient, and you should'nt have to..

    look at the specs for AO on their website, unless they changed it use to read PII and like 64 or 128mb ram.. try running ao on that.. it's a joke.

    still.. if the new engine only runs on the serious gaming rigs you'll loose a lot of what player base you already have, imo the graphics are fine as they are.. of course they could also be better and AoC graphics are much nicer.. AO is gonna carry some bagage so i dont dilute my self with illusions it will look as good.

    the main thing for me, is performance, i want to see better frame rates, or at least smoother frame rates.. some of it has to do with load lag.. but also with large groups of people or effects.

    but it sounds like they're addressing that part as well so im hopeful.

    the avg system out there is probably some dell crap box with integrated Intel graphics, the memory bandwidth carved out of the system memory alone is enough to cripple most systems for games, you need to design.. or at least scale your engine to fit that wide market in.

    then you have laptop users.. which yes a lot of people play on laptops.
    most laptops are highly crippled in the graphics department compared to their desktop cousins.. the higher end laptops are'nt as effected and gfx on laptops in general has been steadly getting better but you're still left with weak graphics subsystems except for maybe the heavy desktop replacement laptops (gaming laptops) which often get poor battery life or sometimes none at all, those are'nt typical though.

    key here will be scalability, the ability to be functionally playable at both the low and high end of the spectrum, so that low spec systems can still play while high end systems can get the max eye candy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vhab View Post
    I think you mean: 3 times the development time, 3 times the testing time, 3 times the expenses and 3 users actually appreciating the effort.
    It's a no-win situation for FC.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vhab View Post
    It's an investment they'd never get the full value back on.
    The Linux user base is so small and insignificant that spending money on it is completely wasted.
    a lot more players use linux then you might think.
    Nanomage Meta-Physicist : Squad Commander [Famous Last Words] [RK2]
    Interested in applying? [Click Here]

  14. #134
    Quote Originally Posted by Mastablasta View Post
    Plenty of people state that poor performance and outdated visuals were a large part of why they moved on to a different game that offered better performance and better visual quality.
    Looks isn't all that this is about, performance on more modern hardware is.
    everyone always wants it to look better, thats the nature of computers.

    however, spending thousands on latest spec video cards and hardware, only to find ao runs worse than your 500 buck PC, and you have no choice because you just spent all your money, and need to use the pc for other things other than AO... that's gotta piss ya off.

    Especially when you lag so bad you cannot do raids/BS/whatever.

    I am all for compatibility/openGL (different modern systems you can buy for cheap, aka new players). Old players whining you don't want it to run slower, on existing system: it shouldnt. but in any case, all PCs DIE. FACE IT. and when your PC does, would you want AO to run OK on whatever new thing you buy?...

    Kinda cut about the OpenGL/Linux support though.

    Thanks and keep up good work though guys.
    Shadow Ops
    Everything that we see is a shadow cast by that which we do not see.
    They'll say we're disturbing the peace, but there is no peace. What really bothers them is that we are disturbing the war.
    Tired of little elves with bows? Fed up with spell-flinging goblins? Bored to death by the solitary world of linear games? Despair not. Freedom is on its way, and its name is Anarchy Online.
    Web: http://www.shadowops-online.org | Twitter: @ShadowOpsOnline | AO: Milestones & History


  15. #135
    Maybe they could merge servers now?

  16. #136
    Quote Originally Posted by Shiekah View Post
    Maybe they could merge servers now?
    once they get the engine change done... and IF (big IF) they spend some money on promotion we could see a surge of players both new and old and it would be unnecessary, if they do it right we could be asking for the opposite, yes im optimistic.
    Nanomage Meta-Physicist : Squad Commander [Famous Last Words] [RK2]
    Interested in applying? [Click Here]

  17. #137
    Quote Originally Posted by windcaster View Post
    well if they was smart they would have worked with very large textures in house and then scaled them down for release but i guess they must not have then, and thats a shame since the ship has sailed.
    It seems everyone got hyped on the word "textures" now. It sure sounds easy to make such statement now, but reality is different.
    First of all, remember when the game was made, this is quite a long time ago.
    At that time they could never have known how long the game would run, or if the game would even turn in some profit at release.

    It's sounds easy to just say "make them high res, we'll shrink them later", but that would infact mean artists would have to spend more time and resources on each texture they make, adding detail that won't be seen ingame.

    Time and resources is something Funcom doesn't always have, especially not when AO was created.
    But hey, it's sure easy to go "if they were smart" 9 years later.

    Besides, textures are not the only thing that would have to be redone to increase the visual quality.

    Quote Originally Posted by windcaster View Post
    a lot more players use linux then you might think.
    They're a huge minority in any game market.
    For FC to support linux they'd first need quite some investment into coding and testing and later on invest in tech support for linux users.
    All of which is very expensive. Even there's a 100 linux users (which I'm sure there are not even that many) it won't turn in remotely close to a profit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldskool_Ozzy View Post
    I am all for compatibility/openGL (different modern systems you can buy for cheap, aka new players). Old players whining you don't want it to run slower, on existing system: it shouldnt. but in any case, all PCs DIE. FACE IT. and when your PC does, would you want AO to run OK on whatever new thing you buy?...
    I don't see how OpenGL relates to this.
    OpenGL, like DirectX, is just an API to access hardware features on your GPU.
    I don't see how this relates to the price and performance of systems.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shiekah View Post
    Maybe they could merge servers now?
    There's too many issues involved with server merging.
    Biggest one being AI cities.
    Formerly Vhab.
    Once upon a time ruled a server. And then sold out. Sorry.

  18. #138
    Quote Originally Posted by Vhab View Post
    First of all, remember when the game was made, this is quite a long time ago.
    At that time they could never have known how long the game would run, or if the game would even turn in some profit at release.
    Not to mention that the original plan for AO was for it to have a 4 year long storyline that would shape events in the game through player input. After those 4 years, the plan was for the game to shut down. 4 years after that, we're still running... some of the design choices and stuff may make sense when seen in that light
    Thor Mastablasta Hammersmith - Level 220, AI 30, LE 70 Clan Atrox Nano Technician - Setup
    The Red Brotherhood

    I'm a Nano-Technician, don't ever expect me to fight unbuffed, alone or fair.

    Means: about f'ing time :P
    Satenia: heresy <3
    Znore: Mastablasta <3
    Kinkstaah: I have agro from many mobs ;(
    Madarab: we are aoe class, we are supose to use pistols
    Marxgorm: the NT toolset does not fit into my raiding tactics

  19. #139
    does anyone know a demo program i can run to test the AoC-engine on my PC?
    220 Agent + :: 220 Doctor + :: 220 Soldier + :: 220 Enforcer + :: 220 Bureaucrat + :: 217 Adventurer + :: 217 Trader + :: 159 Engineer :: 112 Fixer

    Inferno Travelguides

  20. #140
    Quote Originally Posted by Keex View Post
    does anyone know a demo program i can run to test the AoC-engine on my PC?
    Age of Conan
    Formerly Vhab.
    Once upon a time ruled a server. And then sold out. Sorry.

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