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Thread: Friday with Means - May 22nd, 2009

  1. #161
    Quote Originally Posted by IHaveHugeNick View Post
    Also , someone said about having to support the hypothetical Linux client.

    What support? Even Windows users are on their own in here. I have seen like 2 posts from FC in Tech forum in my life, technical FAQ on mainpage is from year 1492 and generally its the players figuring workarounds to problems, like keeping AO out of Program Files folder on Vista for example.

    So hey, i'm sure Means&co have the resources to mantain the same level for support for Linux.
    By support I of course meant the development of resources for both. For example CCP dropped their extra client because of the cost of maintaining more than one client.
    Thor Mastablasta Hammersmith - Level 220, AI 30, LE 70 Clan Atrox Nano Technician - Setup
    The Red Brotherhood

    I'm a Nano-Technician, don't ever expect me to fight unbuffed, alone or fair.

    Means: about f'ing time :P
    Satenia: heresy <3
    Znore: Mastablasta <3
    Kinkstaah: I have agro from many mobs ;(
    Madarab: we are aoe class, we are supose to use pistols
    Marxgorm: the NT toolset does not fit into my raiding tactics

  2. #162
    Quote Originally Posted by Nosgoth View Post
    Don't know about those Linux-problems with AoC, but I can think of some Linux-prevention inside the code (not the engine!) of AoC itself because of the "Games for Windows"-thing. are there any problems for linux users with other Games-for-Windows products?
    It's nothing like that. Please don't start rumors like that.
    Cedega and Wine are just flawed.
    They imitate parts of Windows and they're not doing a perfect job yet.
    Last edited by Vhaxx; May 24th, 2009 at 11:17:00.
    Formerly Vhab.
    Once upon a time ruled a server. And then sold out. Sorry.

  3. #163
    Quote Originally Posted by Vhab View Post
    It's nothing like that. Please don't start rumors like that.
    Cedega and Wine are just flawed.
    They imitate parts of Windows and they're not doing a perfect job yet.
    Conspiracies are more fun
    Thor Mastablasta Hammersmith - Level 220, AI 30, LE 70 Clan Atrox Nano Technician - Setup
    The Red Brotherhood

    I'm a Nano-Technician, don't ever expect me to fight unbuffed, alone or fair.

    Means: about f'ing time :P
    Satenia: heresy <3
    Znore: Mastablasta <3
    Kinkstaah: I have agro from many mobs ;(
    Madarab: we are aoe class, we are supose to use pistols
    Marxgorm: the NT toolset does not fit into my raiding tactics

  4. #164
    Question

    how big will the comming AO Client with the engine change ?
    bigger then the 2.5+ GB now ?

    i think it will be get over 25 GB !!!

    hard download i think

    then it is time to sell a DVD Box and a Premium DVD Box with a "Leet Puppie" and RK Planet map poster.
    wtb wtb wtb wtb wtb wtb wtb wtb wtb

  5. #165
    Quote Originally Posted by Brampfine View Post
    Question

    how big will the comming AO Client with the engine change ?
    bigger then the 2.5+ GB now ?

    i think it will be get over 25 GB !!!

    hard download i think

    then it is time to sell a DVD Box and a Premium DVD Box with a "Leet Puppie" and RK Planet map poster.
    wtb wtb wtb wtb wtb wtb wtb wtb wtb
    With no new textures and a handful of updated models, you would be talking about the same size as it is now. Not anywhere near 25gb, or 12gb as the AoC download is.

    A DVD box for a 25gb install would also be somewhat cumbersome you can geta RK planet map if you locate one of the old AO boxes
    Thor Mastablasta Hammersmith - Level 220, AI 30, LE 70 Clan Atrox Nano Technician - Setup
    The Red Brotherhood

    I'm a Nano-Technician, don't ever expect me to fight unbuffed, alone or fair.

    Means: about f'ing time :P
    Satenia: heresy <3
    Znore: Mastablasta <3
    Kinkstaah: I have agro from many mobs ;(
    Madarab: we are aoe class, we are supose to use pistols
    Marxgorm: the NT toolset does not fit into my raiding tactics

  6. #166
    Quote Originally Posted by Brampfine View Post
    Question

    how big will the comming AO Client with the engine change ?
    bigger then the 2.5+ GB now ?

    i think it will be get over 25 GB !!!

    hard download i think
    The engine is code. It makes stuff works.
    It's probably a few MB once compiled. It's not gigabytes of data.

    If FC decides to change the assets, that's when there will be a size difference.
    So far there have been no mention of this other than some work on upgrading the character models.

    Don't expect a rapid increase of the size of your AO install.
    Formerly Vhab.
    Once upon a time ruled a server. And then sold out. Sorry.

  7. #167
    Quote Originally Posted by Vhab View Post
    It's nothing like that. Please don't start rumors like that.
    Cedega and Wine are just flawed.
    They imitate parts of Windows and they're not doing a perfect job yet.
    actually that is false, wine is not flawed, it is incomplete.

  8. #168
    Quote Originally Posted by dockside View Post
    actually that is false, wine is not flawed, it is incomplete.
    It's both. Not all of their implementations are 100% correct (which is very reasonable as they don't have the source code to look up the original implementation).
    This can cause quite some issues and they're fixing them as they go.
    Formerly Vhab.
    Once upon a time ruled a server. And then sold out. Sorry.

  9. #169
    Quote Originally Posted by Mastablasta View Post
    A DVD box for a 25gb install would also be somewhat cumbersome you can geta RK planet map if you locate one of the old AO boxes
    Better yet, print out the map Onackkeep made at some poster store (it's 28 MB!!):

    http://aork.flw.nu/aork/map3.png <-- high QL
    http://aork.flw.nu/aork/map3.jpg <-- low QL

    -----------------

    How it looks like on your wall:

    http://aork.flw.nu/images/aork_wall.jpg

    Lupusceleri L220/30/70 Agent -- Advisor of Spartans -- equip endgame AR setup endgame def setup <3 Azs wearer of Cheree's pants
    Arrowsmith -- Arafellin -- Alphacenta -- Aesculapias -- Wolfseye -- Lysdexic


    TL5 enf twink: im out those MPs are to overpowered

    crattey: The Balance Discussion forum. Where common sense goes to die.

  10. #170
    Quote Originally Posted by Lupusceleri View Post
    Better yet, print out the map Onackkeep made at some poster store (it's 28 MB!!):

    http://aork.flw.nu/aork/map3.png <-- high QL
    http://aork.flw.nu/aork/map3.jpg <-- low QL

    -----------------

    How it looks like on your wall:

    http://aork.flw.nu/images/aork_wall.jpg

    +1 cool
    210/18 Solitus Ranged Advy RUSTINEL * GARRZ Soldier Solitus 166/21
    145/18 Solitus Engineer DROIDAGE * AVYLORAN Keeper Solitus 161/14
    97/10 Solitus Metaphysicist MEHFIS * ZHERE Nanotech Nanomage 85/9
    Operator SCARCITY Fixer Opifex 49/5 Only TL2 Fixer solo title 7, all servers
    The Smuggler's Tale
    New Beginnings

    Advisor of Shattered Dreams and Lumen Orien


    Co-founder of Lumen Orien

  11. #171
    Quote Originally Posted by Hacre View Post
    I'm providing a lot more support than I would be if I switched my entire OS and application base just so I could play AO as intended by the vendor

    Shame on me? Perhaps you could point me at the super secret AO binary for Linux then? lol.

    ...

    I'll say again, I'm not asking for specific investment in the Linux platform, I'm hoping it will still work. I may not have played AO for a while now, but I'd still like to see the new engine and hopefully be able to enjoy it.
    All very true. LOL I too wish i had the super secret AO >SOURCE!< for Linux/BSD /pst

    About the support thing, I guess you are right too. Though I didn't 'switch', i just have 1 crappy windows thing sitting somewhere reserved for AO use. The unix systems (linux and otherwise) in my household or place of business far outnumbers the windows machine, this is support enough for me.

    The reason I mentioned shame for supporting cedega/wine to run windows apps on top of linux, is that from a purist POV (as discussed time & time again elsewhere - offtopic - hint: NDIS wrappers, etc) it dilutes the license and pollutes the open movement efforts, and generally retards the technology development process.

    I might even go so far as to say that the reason teh number of AO nix users is low, is precisely because, they dont have a native client. Again, nix users are top of IT food chain, get paid big $, and generally speaking, have many people in their employ, are a very loyal user base and community-driven - they won't be switching to wow on cedega anytime soon if a company produces a quality native client. Unix is user-friendly, its just picky about who it's friends are

    For me, windows is just a utility/requirement/spec for AO. Of course I want more FOSS support, and given by the number of unix servers funcom themselves run, am sure they want to head there as well eventually. Just let them get the wownoob numbers up first

    I'm thinking there already are threads dedicated to this discussion elsewhere, we are getting a little off topic. There MAY or MAY NOT be linux support in the future engine, but FC will not be going out of their way to support it as far as we know for now.

    PS. Anything can be made to work in WINE. Somewhere, someone is making something work on wine right now. People are lazy, and do not understand Linux at all (as someone said they are just kids in school that want stuff for free). Wine is not the answer, but if you want ao on Linux to work, don't fantasize about some secret code not making AoC work on Linux and whine on forums. Install Wine, download AO, start up your favourite debugger, and do it. Otherwise just get a windows box in the corner for AO like I do, or demand a NATIVE CLIENT from the vendor/prove the numbers are up there/profit can be made by this.

    I will not care about this argument, until FC make a conscious decision to support the (paid) Linux userbase at which point, I will contribute as much as I can to the discussion/work/cause in any way I can.
    Shadow Ops
    Everything that we see is a shadow cast by that which we do not see.
    They'll say we're disturbing the peace, but there is no peace. What really bothers them is that we are disturbing the war.
    Tired of little elves with bows? Fed up with spell-flinging goblins? Bored to death by the solitary world of linear games? Despair not. Freedom is on its way, and its name is Anarchy Online.
    Web: http://www.shadowops-online.org | Twitter: @ShadowOpsOnline | AO: Milestones & History


  12. #172
    Actually, I know this is off-topic, one of you linux guys go out and make a thread on this discussion and we'll talk about it there at depth if you want, and do a few polls on exactly how many Linux/osX/whatever else users there are out there. It would also give creedence to the subcommunity of nix people using AO. I'm positive they are not all school kids who like stuff for free.

    But I've been thinking about this for a while, and it makes sense that, due to limited resources at FC, the best thing would be to open up parts of the code to the community and let them do it. This would definitely save them $ and might produce a better product in shorter turnaround. Hehe then the nix guys have the best version of AO working with cutting edge >OPEN< ATI cards and the latest snazzy effects, and the windows ao base crying we want what the Linux guys have!!!! patch plz!!! as has happened countless times with other companies when they do this.

    I've been thinking about this problem for a while, and as I understand vhab, correct me if I'm wrong, the db is encrypted, so it -is- actually possible for a bunch of the work to be open sourced to the community to develop the engine themselves (say ogre), give AO/FC an EXCELLENT marketing campaign in the process, without risk of idiots hax0ring/injecting/exploiting, is this correct?

    I don't know enough about 3d/games stuff.
    Shadow Ops
    Everything that we see is a shadow cast by that which we do not see.
    They'll say we're disturbing the peace, but there is no peace. What really bothers them is that we are disturbing the war.
    Tired of little elves with bows? Fed up with spell-flinging goblins? Bored to death by the solitary world of linear games? Despair not. Freedom is on its way, and its name is Anarchy Online.
    Web: http://www.shadowops-online.org | Twitter: @ShadowOpsOnline | AO: Milestones & History


  13. #173
    Furthermore, companies (and people) out there do not think about this correctly or do not understand what OSS means.

    eg: If FC see said they would be releasing parts up for development to the community, I would personally have at least 20-30 (unconfirmed) friends and colleagues that would JUMP on spare code time to work on an open product. Thats sounds like its 2-3x the size of the AoC dev team and thats just ME. then the rest of ao oldtimers on the forums + the community at large...

    NEXT. Think of this. EVERY school kid who installed ubuntu because its free in the last 2 years, with a native FOSS AO client on there, by default. Froobland only ofc, unless they pay. IMAGINE what that would do ?!?!! do you have any idea how many ubuntu desktops are out there? blizzard/wow is insta-wtfpwned. FC > *.

    Imagine an mmorpg that works native on osX. Do you have any idea how many people went out and bought mac laptops and iphones in the last few years? and they have NO OTHER CHOICE. ie they are LOCKED IN to a contract with funcom.

    now. we have native source code ao client that cross compiles into linux or bsd/osX and other variants in a second. guess what else is easssssssssssssy to crosscompile to?....

    You guessed it, Playstation 3.
    End of Discussion.

    I mean I'm sure there are flaws in my arguments but people carrying on about wine/cedega, and not letting FC go about their business plans, is just retarted imho.
    Last edited by Oldskool_Ozzy; May 24th, 2009 at 15:01:38. Reason: stress the point thats just 1 bloke.
    Shadow Ops
    Everything that we see is a shadow cast by that which we do not see.
    They'll say we're disturbing the peace, but there is no peace. What really bothers them is that we are disturbing the war.
    Tired of little elves with bows? Fed up with spell-flinging goblins? Bored to death by the solitary world of linear games? Despair not. Freedom is on its way, and its name is Anarchy Online.
    Web: http://www.shadowops-online.org | Twitter: @ShadowOpsOnline | AO: Milestones & History


  14. #174
    Quote Originally Posted by Ayria View Post
    ...
    What is so appealing about Linux?
    ...
    From the size of my posts you can tell I could talk for hours on the subject. However I'll just say look into it yourself if you like to feed your brain

    Simple answer:

    - It allows faster development turnarounds and millions of programmers worldwide to work on your product, 24x7. Something a lot of struggling companies cannot afford.
    - Greater ROI (return on investment - FC spends $10 on new website that supports open source development and in return gets 482382 programmers working on their shiz but not on their payroll)
    - Greater compatibility! (Linux still supports 486s. Some nut out there, if AO had native linux client, WILL go out and MAKE a version of AO that works on a 1994 486 russian pc with 4mb ram. 'Just cuz they can'.) Because its open, you have more forks and variants. Guys want 1980s voodoo 3dfx support? done. Guys want dx10? done. Guys want sli support? done. etc etc etc.
    - More secure and faster and works better with your hardware/better driver support than Windows (sweeping generalisations, but google and ye shall find)
    - Helps make the world a better place ( aka technology development since an expert in 3d stuff like vhab can be working on stuff he knows best, whilst a network guru like rusty can be figuring how to uber-optimise the network code, at the same time, which normally doesnt happen in corporate development projects)
    - it makes your coffee. hehe

    anyways The Cathedral and the Bazaar is a great starting point if you want to find out more, as well as wikipedia and google.
    Last edited by Oldskool_Ozzy; May 24th, 2009 at 15:04:22. Reason: stressed compatibility
    Shadow Ops
    Everything that we see is a shadow cast by that which we do not see.
    They'll say we're disturbing the peace, but there is no peace. What really bothers them is that we are disturbing the war.
    Tired of little elves with bows? Fed up with spell-flinging goblins? Bored to death by the solitary world of linear games? Despair not. Freedom is on its way, and its name is Anarchy Online.
    Web: http://www.shadowops-online.org | Twitter: @ShadowOpsOnline | AO: Milestones & History


  15. #175
    I'll shut up now
    Shadow Ops
    Everything that we see is a shadow cast by that which we do not see.
    They'll say we're disturbing the peace, but there is no peace. What really bothers them is that we are disturbing the war.
    Tired of little elves with bows? Fed up with spell-flinging goblins? Bored to death by the solitary world of linear games? Despair not. Freedom is on its way, and its name is Anarchy Online.
    Web: http://www.shadowops-online.org | Twitter: @ShadowOpsOnline | AO: Milestones & History


  16. #176
    Quote Originally Posted by Oldskool_Ozzy View Post
    - It allows faster development turnarounds and millions of programmers worldwide to work on your product, 24x7. Something a lot of struggling companies cannot afford.
    - Greater ROI (return on investment - FC spends $10 on new website that supports open source development and in return gets 482382 programmers working on their shiz but not on their payroll)
    - Greater compatibility! (Linux still supports 486s. Some nut out there, if AO had native linux client, WILL go out and MAKE a version of AO that works on a 1994 486 russian pc with 4mb ram. 'Just cuz they can'.) Because its open, you have more forks and variants. Guys want 1980s voodoo 3dfx support? done. Guys want dx10? done. Guys want sli support? done. etc etc etc.
    - More secure and faster and works better with your hardware/better driver support than Windows (sweeping generalisations, but google and ye shall find)
    - Helps make the world a better place ( aka technology development since an expert in 3d stuff like vhab can be working on stuff he knows best, whilst a network guru like rusty can be figuring how to uber-optimise the network code, at the same time, which normally doesnt happen in corporate development projects)
    Your arguements are confusing Linux with Opensource.

    The 2 are not the same thing. Most Linux developments are opensource, but not all opensource is written for a linux environment.

    The chances of Funcom releasing and OPENSOURCE AO is about the same as Microsoft giving Windows 7 away for free.
    And nothing would ever require Funcom to do so, just to release a native linux version.
    Last edited by Omutb; May 24th, 2009 at 15:19:05.
    Omutb - President - Ring of Destruction

    If you only knew the power of the Frosted Strawberry Poptart....

    "Once more unto the breach, dear friends, once more; Or close the wall up with our English dead." - because Wales just isnt a country

    Chernobyl, providing the freshest bottled water since 1986, for that healthy green glow.

  17. #177
    arguments being plural. precisely my point.

    You are right though. i described both advantages of linux and open-source. Linux being ONE of the most popular accomplishments of FOSS.

    I'm saying they could get ogre/linux support/native linux client and not have to spend more than a free sourceforge subscription or whatever to make it so by making it FOSS.

    BUT there could be other open-source advantages in other platforms just as well, sure (like windows, osX, whatever). The number of foss projects hosted on SF that are NON-linux specific has skyrocketed in the last few years. or not. They could continue to fund that dev themselves as they currently are.

    But why not? everyone is doing it. even !@#*!@*# companies like CISCO! with their linksys product range (only after they got busted for violating GPL, sure) but linksys accounts for a LOT of revenue for them. the list of companies and products FOSSed and adding Linux support is endless and no need to regurgitate here. You do wrong to compare FC with Microsoft, they are a 'special' company. They have been on trial at high courts around the world last few years, and thats even with all the judges they own.

    FOSS Linux native client would be a great test. They need not release all of it - they could provide an API, which interacts with the encrypted db and/or 1 single closed-source, cross-platform library. I think the important thing in any mmorpg is the server-end and db/game mechanics. I dunno, there are many ways to skin a cat. Just getting people crying 'we want linux' that there are other arguments other than 'we want wine/cedega support and YOU/FC have to do it!'

    FC: do what you've always done, and get what you've always got.
    Last edited by Oldskool_Ozzy; May 24th, 2009 at 15:40:09. Reason: re-read what he said :) and suckerpunched M$
    Shadow Ops
    Everything that we see is a shadow cast by that which we do not see.
    They'll say we're disturbing the peace, but there is no peace. What really bothers them is that we are disturbing the war.
    Tired of little elves with bows? Fed up with spell-flinging goblins? Bored to death by the solitary world of linear games? Despair not. Freedom is on its way, and its name is Anarchy Online.
    Web: http://www.shadowops-online.org | Twitter: @ShadowOpsOnline | AO: Milestones & History


  18. #178
    Doesn't opensource mean open for exploits?
    or at least make them easier to spot and do?
    (security by obscurity)

    You might get a bezillion programmers for free, but they also might make crappy work. Just like with 3rd party programs, FunCom can not take responsibility or support for work done by others; it could contain malware.

    Kind Regards
    Ariensky
    Humankind can not gain anything, without first giving something in return.
    To obtain; something of equal value must be lost.
    That is the 1st law of equivalent exchange


    Rubi-Ka needs: a nickel statue of an astronaut pointing at the sky
    With the description / plate saying:
    When the stars burn out and I find I lack the strength to continue...one of YOU wil pick up the flag and carry it forward.
    This really isn't a corporate product anymore...it belongs to all of us. Where it goes it up to us.

  19. #179
    OpenSource, free; I can see the appeal when compared to something like Microsoft.

    There's an OS project in SecondLife I've looked over a few times, not only is their code horrendously over complicated for the minimal list of tasks they preform but they pole an external database for everything. But because it's free and opensource everyone rushes to it. I feel that's because they don't have something worth paying for. Their main competition just quit and released their stuff as opensource (freeware not (L)GPL) so that kills the market even more. (They quit for different reasons, not the competition)

    The question I'm getting at is, if there was a market that really competed with Linux (Unix w/e) but that cost money would people go for it? Or is it because it's a free toy that they can customize?
    Enter the Information Age
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  20. #180
    Quote Originally Posted by ArienSky View Post
    Doesn't opensource mean open for exploits?
    or at least make them easier to spot and do?
    (security by obscurity)

    You might get a bezillion programmers for free, but they also might make crappy work. Just like with 3rd party programs, FunCom can not take responsibility or support for work done by others; it could contain malware.

    Kind Regards
    Ariensky
    That is the question I was asking vhab/other fellas that are more experienced with 3d games/engines than me. I only know about foss/unix and infrastructure and a bit about security and smashing stacks for fun and profit.

    If it was safe, then it would be great. But don't think that all FOSS have loads of vulnerabilities. Maybe more of them are known precisely because it isn't obscure - this means bugs and support gets fixed quicker usually (not always the case), and that is why Apache is still today one of the most widely used web servers by multi billion dollar companies and the corner store :-)
    Shadow Ops
    Everything that we see is a shadow cast by that which we do not see.
    They'll say we're disturbing the peace, but there is no peace. What really bothers them is that we are disturbing the war.
    Tired of little elves with bows? Fed up with spell-flinging goblins? Bored to death by the solitary world of linear games? Despair not. Freedom is on its way, and its name is Anarchy Online.
    Web: http://www.shadowops-online.org | Twitter: @ShadowOpsOnline | AO: Milestones & History


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