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Thread: Traders balancing

  1. #61
    Try alphaing a trader before it has a chance to react, will work better than fp trader.
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  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Racatti View Post
    Try alphaing a trader before it has a chance to react, will work better than fp trader.
    You could also say "Try AS/SDS/GTHing the agent then NGBing yourself before the agent has time to react"

    Because AS/SDS/GTH and then NBG takes a bit less time to execute than AS/fling/CS/Fuzz/ect.

    No point making PvP arguments based on notions like "get the drop on someone" because they can just as easily get the drop on you.

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Questra View Post
    You could also say "Try AS/SDS/GTHing the agent then NGBing yourself before the agent has time to react"

    Because AS/SDS/GTH and then NBG takes a bit less time to execute than AS/fling/CS/Fuzz/ect.

    No point making PvP arguments based on notions like "get the drop on someone" because they can just as easily get the drop on you.
    Divest won't stop em from landing CS, Tranq and champ perks, nor will it stop em from CHing.

    If the agent attacked from sneak, like how it supposed to, Shot is otw as well which will pretty surely finish the trader coupled with the previous perks.

    It's not my fault most agents think about themselves as tankprofs with a CH instead of attacking from sneak than gtfo asap.
    Fixer - Solja Lite
    Adv - Forgotten lubchild
    Trader - Nerfed Professional

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Racatti View Post
    Profs that are not going to be stopped with 1 drain are:
    Adv ( especially ranged), pistol crat, soldier, fixer, enf, eng, NT, doc, agent, pre-drained shade, tigress MP and anyone else with MR up.
    The rest is doable.
    Perhaps not stopped, but very very nearly stopped, or otherwise extremely unlikely to win the encounter. Quite often this nano is landed at 40m away, which IS an issue in melee, if the trader runs away from you after it lands, meaning you can't close the gap and here comes that 2nd nano. (this is intelligent trader play, though)

    Quote Originally Posted by Shareida View Post
    Fourth: One capping hit every 11 seconds you call a reliable offense... Are we playing the same game?
    It is vs an opponent who cant cast, move, or attack you back. (hi, debuffs/see above)

    Quote Originally Posted by Racatti View Post
    And that's exactly what a trader supposed to do if you failed to kill it fast.
    Exactly correct.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wrangeline
    Here's an idea:

    You are with a couple of other people in a team in BS, you meet 3 enemies and one of the enemies is a trader. What do you do? You kill the trader in a few seconds because it's easy as hell. Now you have the upper hand.
    No, they kill the trader because if they dont, immediately, do everything possible to kill the trader then the trader is going to result in the deaths of your entire team. This is why, its not cause they are "lols an easy kill" which brings me to:

    Quote Originally Posted by Racatti View Post
    Traders are perfectly fine the way they are.
    This is true enough in the current game. But its a bit one dimensional when its either
    Win: Kill trader before they can cast a nano.
    Lose: Trader sucessfully casts a nano.

    Surely there's a better idea for class balance for Traders. It has to feel cheap for traders, and it feels lame as hell for trader opponents.

    It's reminiscient of stun procs and their "lol random luck bah" gameplay.
    Never in a hurry, I'm just moving fast

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Racatti View Post
    Divest won't stop em from landing CS, Tranq and champ perks, nor will it stop em from CHing.

    If the agent attacked from sneak, like how it supposed to, Shot is otw as well which will pretty surely finish the trader coupled with the previous perks.

    It's not my fault most agents think about themselves as tankprofs with a CH instead of attacking from sneak than gtfo asap.
    I don't use Mimic Trader to kill Traders. That has nothing to do with my point. I use Mimic Trader and I support those suggestions. I wouldn't mind using them with the seriously nerfed Trader toolset available to me.

    Also, when the new perk changes hit live it WILL stop them from landing all of those perks. It won't stop them from CHing, but we'll see how long CH lasts as the cookie cutter defense with the incoming heal nerfs that we know nothing about.

    Oh, and the Trader can't pop the Agent out of sneak with an AoE root right?
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  6. #66
    {edited by Anarrina: removed quoted post and answer}


    I'll agree some change is needed. IMO

    Set nanodelta to 0 on gth
    Level lock some nanos so they can not be used at lower TL's
    Decrease duration of debuff to 90s on Divest and plunder whilst buff on trader stays 180s.
    Make Corp protection and industrial sabotage last 60s
    Once BR Debuff on soldier runs out AMS is restored, i.e. 30s with no reflects.

    Also people need to be aware that anyone who has half decent NR wont get plundered or it will resist countless times with a long recharge.
    Last edited by Anarrina; Oct 21st, 2009 at 10:12:55.
    BarginDealer The Trader
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  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by Kinkst44h View Post
    Perhaps not stopped, but very very nearly stopped, or otherwise extremely unlikely to win the encounter. Quite often this nano is landed at 40m away, which IS an issue in melee, if the trader runs away from you after it lands, meaning you can't close the gap and here comes that 2nd nano. (this is intelligent trader play, though)
    Only one drain vs similarly equipped, end-game PvPers doesn't really cut it anymore.

    Pistol crat, Sol, Ranged adv, enf, keeper and pre-drained shade will happily perk thru 1 drain. Agent will still land CS and Tranq after which usually I'm busy outhealing capping ASes, leaving me little to no time trying to land other debuffs.

    Fixer will just remove it. I can kill any trader 80% of the time one on one on mine. If they CP me first, I just spam LICC and perk em thru CP when it landed. Only things trader can kill me with are the drainprocs.

    MP will still land SS (and alb arrows, CA, capping AS), eng can continue spamming IPA having nothing better to do. Adv can still use BoL, agent can still CH. Yea I could just GTH em, but I like to keep GTH for the pocket that comes after they start yelling for someone to save em on BS channel.

    We all know how reliable roots working, I can rarely stop a melee if it decides to run away after 1st drain landed, whereas my 2.1k RS won't help either.

    Yes, it's usually game-over when plunder lands as well, that's why it's 150%, to not land that often. Yes, it happens on first try from time to time, that's called bad luck.

    PvPing on a trader is a constant race against the time, having to land your nanos before you die, having to constantly keep up both drains and having to deal with being the number one target for absolutely everyone. In this context, drains and debuffs are the perfect tools without turning trader into a mini-adv. Yes, they can severely cripple one target at a time, exactly what they supposed to do.

    Thanks for the tip, even tho I doubt you have anything to teach me about trader PvP

    Quote Originally Posted by SultryVoltron View Post
    Also, when the new perk changes hit live it WILL stop them from landing all of those perks. It won't stop them from CHing, but we'll see how long CH lasts as the cookie cutter defense with the incoming heal nerfs that we know nothing about.

    Oh, and the Trader can't pop the Agent out of sneak with an AoE root right?
    If you queue up all your new shiny perks from sneak, there is absolutely nothing that will stop the trader from dying.

    AoE root has a 4s recharge, gives you more than enough time to pop the trader.
    Last edited by Racatti; Oct 21st, 2009 at 10:07:01.
    Fixer - Solja Lite
    Adv - Forgotten lubchild
    Trader - Nerfed Professional

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Racatti View Post
    Divest won't stop em from landing CS, Tranq and champ perks, nor will it stop em from CHing.

    If the agent attacked from sneak, like how it supposed to, Shot is otw as well which will pretty surely finish the trader coupled with the previous perks.

    It's not my fault most agents think about themselves as tankprofs with a CH instead of attacking from sneak than gtfo asap.
    Nah... those perks all do a decent amount of DD but if a soldier can't alpha a good trader with AS, Burst FA, and Fuzz Nano Feast (takes 3s at least for that) before the trader can react and NBG then that's not gonna be enough DD in time, especially because most perks will be increasing to 2s execution time.

    In the new system, CS will use AMS rather than AS, so one drain or SDS will make that trader unstunnable. One drain won't stop an agent from CHing but a few seconds of GTH will, and if the trader is under NBG, they can take their sweet time about it.

    Agents aren't the only ones that can attack from sneak. Before the new title system, soldiers, NTs and traders hugged sneak just as much as agents. Know why they don't do that anymore? Because it's boring as hell. If an agent has to wait around moving as slowly as a Bronto Mamma for 5 minutes to be able to kill a trader, that's just silly.

    My point is that with perks taking much longer to execute and many alphas getting nerfed, traders are going to be harder to alpha. This should be considered not only before anyone asks for trader love, but before the devs decide if they want to modify GTH or drains in any way.

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Racatti View Post
    Only one drain vs similarly equipped, end-game PvPers doesn't really cut it anymore.

    Pistol crat, Sol, Ranged adv, enf, keeper and pre-drained shade will happily perk thru 1 drain.
    With AI perks, which are getting their AAO bonus halved? I don't know about RK2 but there are traders on RK1 who will stop me landing perks with one drain, and I have 3.75k AR. I can still land AI perks, but like I said, those seem to be getting nerfed hard.

    Quote Originally Posted by Racatti View Post
    Agent will still land CS and Tranq after which usually I'm busy outhealing capping ASes, leaving me little to no time trying to land other debuffs.
    You should check the new perk PDFs and see what's happening to CS.

    How many capped ASes do you take from an agent within 10 seconds? Because if it's more than one, you need to petition that. I saw Rktim duel some generic trader recently. Burst/FA/Perks and the trader still drained before healing. He went from about 15% HP to almost 100% within 10 seconds.

    Quote Originally Posted by Racatti View Post
    We all know how reliable roots working, I can rarely stop a melee if it decides to run away after 1st drain landed, whereas my 2.1k RS won't help either.
    You have a lot of melee profs running away from you after you land 1 drain huh? I wonder why that is...

    Quote Originally Posted by Racatti View Post
    If you queue up all your new shiny perks from sneak, there is absolutely nothing that will stop the trader from dying.
    I worked out that with the new 2s perk execution times for many perks, my best perks will now take about 16 seconds to land, and apparently perks will have to make a second defense check, one when you queue it and one when it actually lands.

    My point, again, is that this is a new system we're looking at here and it's going to be very good for a trader's defense if what we see now hits Live.

    This needs to be taken into account when considering what, if anything, needs to be done with trader debuffs.
    Last edited by Questra; Oct 21st, 2009 at 10:28:37.

  10. #70
    That's what you got your debuffs for. To use em first.

    Yes, that's why I said from sneak, like how an agent is supposed to fight.

    Which perks actually check defenses upon execution?

    Have yet to see any.

    What you see now is only a fraction of the changes to come, making assumptions based on partial info is rather pointless, don't you think?
    Last edited by Racatti; Oct 21st, 2009 at 11:30:18.
    Fixer - Solja Lite
    Adv - Forgotten lubchild
    Trader - Nerfed Professional

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by Racatti View Post
    Divest won't stop em from landing CS, Tranq and champ perks, nor will it stop em from CHing.

    If the agent attacked from sneak, like how it supposed to, Shot is otw as well which will pretty surely finish the trader coupled with the previous perks.
    Actually, Divest will stop all non-AR-setup Agents from landing CS, because it also debuffs AAO besides just nanoskills/weaponskills. Tranq is minor damage (1k pvm, 500 pvp, ~350 pvp with rrfe), and Champ perks are going to be nerfed out of the double AAO check.

    However, all of that doesn't matter. Even if Divest didn't stop agents from perking you, you could still NBD up and survive the alpha. Pathogen the trox trader was doing so years ago, before the grand majority of trader loving. Now imagine nanomage, with 5k absorb (agent perks are 4832423 different damage types), and a better working NBG (higher reflect + more nanopool).

    Quote Originally Posted by Racatti View Post
    It's not my fault most agents think about themselves as tankprofs with a CH instead of attacking from sneak than gtfo asap.
    No, it's Funcoms fault for giving us slow and ineffective perks, forcing us to either work for a defense so we can survive until the perks go off, or building a M150/PE setup which eats your IP, has a long recharge (7 to 30 minutes), and is becoming obsolete with the rebalancing.
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  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by Lupusceleri View Post
    Actually, Divest will stop all non-AR-setup Agents from landing CS, because it also debuffs AAO besides just nanoskills/weaponskills. Tranq is minor damage (1k pvm, 500 pvp, ~350 pvp with rrfe), and Champ perks are going to be nerfed out of the double AAO check.

    However, all of that doesn't matter. Even if Divest didn't stop agents from perking you, you could still NBD up and survive the alpha. Pathogen the trox trader was doing so years ago, before the grand majority of trader loving. Now imagine nanomage, with 5k absorb (agent perks are 4832423 different damage types), and a better working NBG (higher reflect + more nanopool).



    No, it's Funcoms fault for giving us slow and ineffective perks, forcing us to either work for a defense so we can survive until the perks go off, or building a M150/PE setup which eats your IP, has a long recharge (7 to 30 minutes), and is becoming obsolete with the rebalancing.
    Actually, it won't if you use VE. Tranq is not about the dmg, it's about the snare. If you willingly chose to give up 336 on both, tough luck.

    Ganking from sneak is the best tactic vs traders, period. Agents are the masters of sneak, period. Whether you combine the two, or picture yourself as a jack-of-all-trade mini-doc, mini-evader, ever-capping monster, it's up to you.

    Sneaking around all the time is boring I know, maybe you shouldn't have rolled an agent than. Oh, but you wanted the 2nd best heals with the most reliable offense ingame? Live with the downsides than as well.
    Fixer - Solja Lite
    Adv - Forgotten lubchild
    Trader - Nerfed Professional

  13. #73
    I hate doing it, but i actually agree with a lot of racatti's points. Non-traders don't understand the 'race against time' (well said, rac) dynamic of playing a trader. They don't understand that our drains have 4 and 5 second recharge times during which we are bait (and that the 5 sec recharge is the one that we have to try and spam if we want it to land). They don't realize that you can only GTH one target every two minutes and that the good traders save it for people worth using it on. They don't realize that SDS is only 3 seconds and thus anyone with half a brain can just wait 3 seconds before wasting their alpha if they have any skill at all. And while we are trying to land all these items on everyone around us so we have a chance at surviving, we cannot be casting our heal (YEEIYF is great, but let's be serious it's not that much healing when actually engaged in combat).

    Are traders strong? If you wait for them to land their drains ON YOU then yes; otherwise they can become relatively easy kills for people in similar level equipment as drains debuff the opponent more than they buff the trader (talking defensively here).
    Proud Member of Paradise

  14. #74
    This is going like any other discussion about a well performing PvP profession does. All the Traders give all their worst case scenarios as points/counter points and all the people who are tired of running into Traders give all their worst case scenarios as points/counter points.

    The bottom line is, if Traders can't acknowledge that they're a strong PvP profession then this thread is pointless. If the anti Traders can't acknowledge difficulties/drawbacks and flaws in that incredibly annoying toolset, then this thread is pointless.

    Traders should know full well, if they're honest with themselves, what kind of a nemesis they are to various professions, particularly casters. There aren't many Traders that don't run around the BS with both drains up since the non rebuff in decon patch aaaaaaaaaages ago and like it or not Shutdown Skills is a terrific opener against a wide variety of professions while you set about softening them up.
    Member of Spartans
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    Quote Originally Posted by randomalpha View Post
    in the end soldier is not Op or even near from that never was never will be just for the record only keepers are the ones before soldiers on the nerfest list
    Genius at work.

  15. #75
    Bonghigs and Hacre both actually hit the nail on the head in the last 2 posts.

    Having that said, I think this thread is already pointless UNTIL FC releases more information about their balance plans. The perk info we got so far is only 10% of the info we need. Will trader nanos need to be toned down in various ways? Most likely yes, but I think it's best to wait until we got the info before we start carving up the turkey.

    Discussing what needs to be done to traders at this point seems more like finally getting a propper outlet for saying what people think is OP about traders rather than an actual objective view on future balance. I don't think anyone can have an objective and balanced view until we have more information to work with.
    Last edited by Wrangeline; Oct 21st, 2009 at 15:48:10.
    Veteran of Equilibrium

  16. #76
    I don't know if it fits the trader profession, but i think a certain element is lacking in the game actually.

    A hostile nano, inflicting damage, if the target is executing nanos itself, or attacking. I would consider this a form of shutdown. Actually, it would fit to Doctor...

    Sorry, just love Mesmers in Guild wars.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hacre View Post
    This is going like any other discussion about a well performing PvP profession does. All the Traders give all their worst case scenarios as points/counter points and all the people who are tired of running into Traders give all their worst case scenarios as points/counter points.

    The bottom line is, if Traders can't acknowledge that they're a strong PvP profession then this thread is pointless. If the anti Traders can't acknowledge difficulties/drawbacks and flaws in that incredibly annoying toolset, then this thread is pointless.

    Traders should know full well, if they're honest with themselves, what kind of a nemesis they are to various professions, particularly casters. There aren't many Traders that don't run around the BS with both drains up since the non rebuff in decon patch aaaaaaaaaages ago and like it or not Shutdown Skills is a terrific opener against a wide variety of professions while you set about softening them up.
    I do certainly agree that traders are one of the strongest, versatile and dangerous pvp professions around.

    They do indeed cause havoc in enemy lines, but the table turns as soon as someone of the enemies uses half of his brain cells instead of smashing the usual buttons for unleashing an alpha.

    People who played a trader at tl7 and now play other classes know exactly how to counter this unique play style. So a trader becomes an easy kill for them.
    Last edited by Shareida; Oct 21st, 2009 at 21:46:05.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lazy View Post
    it's written in the bible.
    Matthew 23:13 "and the trader hath casteth bulk trader at the young age of 14. and it was good. and so he hath an extra 260 comp lit and he hath equippeth better ncu's. and it was good too.
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  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by Shareida View Post
    People who played a trader at tl7 and now play other classes know exactly how to counter this unique play style. So a trader becomes an easy kill for them.
    I'll go with that. People cry about NT stuff that on my Keeper/Crat never bothered me, because I know the toolset.

    The More You Know...
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    Quote Originally Posted by randomalpha View Post
    in the end soldier is not Op or even near from that never was never will be just for the record only keepers are the ones before soldiers on the nerfest list
    Genius at work.

  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by Hacre View Post
    This is going like any other discussion about a well performing PvP profession does. All the Traders give all their worst case scenarios as points/counter points and all the people who are tired of running into Traders give all their worst case scenarios as points/counter points.

    The bottom line is, if Traders can't acknowledge that they're a strong PvP profession then this thread is pointless. If the anti Traders can't acknowledge difficulties/drawbacks and flaws in that incredibly annoying toolset, then this thread is pointless.

    Traders should know full well, if they're honest with themselves, what kind of a nemesis they are to various professions, particularly casters. There aren't many Traders that don't run around the BS with both drains up since the non rebuff in decon patch aaaaaaaaaages ago and like it or not Shutdown Skills is a terrific opener against a wide variety of professions while you set about softening them up.
    You will never see my saying trader is not strong, but I'd hate to trade my toolset for a higher static def.

    And there are profs than can just destroy trader no matter what as well.
    Fixer - Solja Lite
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    Trader - Nerfed Professional

  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by Racatti View Post
    You will never see my saying trader is not strong, but I'd hate to trade my toolset for a higher static def.

    And there are profs than can just destroy trader no matter what as well.
    Yeah. Other, better Traders, or Shades that get the drop on you. Woo.
    Member of Spartans
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    Quote Originally Posted by randomalpha View Post
    in the end soldier is not Op or even near from that never was never will be just for the record only keepers are the ones before soldiers on the nerfest list
    Genius at work.

  20. #80
    ...and ranged advs, fixers, 1hb+1he enfs, pistol crats, MAs.
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    Adv - Forgotten lubchild
    Trader - Nerfed Professional

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