Group perk changes from tl5 perspective

[Calamite]

From what I can see in the latest perk documentation, the changes are going to break tl5 pretty much. Changing all the mid level perks for pistol/shotgun/SMG/RE (I mean easy shot, double shot etc, the highest available at tl5) will make landing them much harder, and those weapon choices don't provide very high AR already.

I know that people are whining about pistol perks having 80% checks, and I understand that it's not very fair. But I would suggest this: Make the lower perks check 80% and the last and deadliest ones 100%, that would make sense. And this goes for pistol, shotgun, ranged energy and SMG, since the professions using them have lowest attack ratings at tl5.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

Make the lower perks check 80% and the last and deadliest ones 100%, that would make sense. And this goes for pistol, shotgun, ranged energy and SMG, since the professions using them have lowest attack ratings at tl5.

Generally speaking, and probably applicable to all perklines, this might be a good idea.

Have the lowest dmg, first perks on lines have lower checks, with higher level perks having mid level checks, and final strongest, highest DD perks have the max or even 110% checks.

I agree, but, keep in mind it might throw a curveball to TL3-4.

[erozc]

The last, biggest DD perks on 110% checks would probably mean they mostly land versus the people you least need them on, and would also mean that greens and gimps (and PvMers) are going to enjoy their BS time even less.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

The last, biggest DD perks on 110% checks would probably mean they mostly land versus the people you least need them on, and would also mean that greens and gimps (and PvMers) are going to enjoy their BS time even less.

it's a good point.

I'm not sure if this idea would work. Yet, even as I think about it seems to be ok, from a 220 /endgame perspective, Ideally you'd want at least a few small perks landing on evades profs, evade profs have less HP, so landing small perks would hurt them, but if you landed big dmg perks it would obviously throw things out of whack.

HP is general disproportionate to evades, where, at the top of the pack you've got fixers with great evades and low HP, followed by MA, crat, shade, MP, trader, advy, keeper, soldier, enforcer, doctor generally increasing in HP, and getting lower in evades all the way to enf/doc.

So, landing the highest DD perks should only really work on the lowest evade profs. The beauty of this is that if scaled properly, it COULD result in certain profs being susceptible to perk damage regardless of setup, and other profs optionally going with a specialized evade setup to avoid the otherwise (meant for ) high DD perks.

seems like a simple way to give balance totally to the devs. Unfortunately, the problem with this is you'd likely see advies getting like all 5%-15% checks, and every other prof getting 50%-95% checks.

Oh, btw, save yourself the hassle later on, and go roll an advy.

The problem is also that at lower levels you're goign to be running around with a bunch of perks that will land on everyone... which, actually might even up the field vs traders O_o

[erozc]

So, DD perks aside, what about debuffing perks? Ideally, most of these should land on evade/infantry/artillery professions that have the tools to mitigate/avoid outright damage, while not so much on the so-called "support". The problem is that while damage perks generally come in a number of perks per line, make-it-or-break-it debuff perks only come as one per perk line.

Unfortunately it seems that many of the perks that would have been easier to land due to AAD not factoring in anymore have been changed to check AR versus some evade. I honestly don't see the point. Why the trouble...

On damage perks, what's certain is that at TL5, shotty setups are going away big time because of Easy shot nerf. Too bad, it was a very nice tool when used with Freak str.

Then again, shotties would be gone quite possibly otherwise too with AS changes. Rifles are gonna be goners for sure (all two people who use them) but shotties would have had a chance thanks to that one perk, which is now going to get nerfed.

HP is general disproportionate to evades, where, at the top of the pack you've got fixers with great evades and low HP, followed by MA, crat, shade, MP, trader, advy, keeper, soldier, enforcer, doctor generally increasing in HP, and getting lower in evades all the way to enf/doc.

You didn't get the memo about evade enfs who'd dodge advie pistol perks were it not for lower checks? Note that this comment is slightly tongue in cheek.

seems like a simple way to give balance totally to the devs. Unfortunately, the problem with this is you'd likely see advies getting like all 5%-15% checks, and every other prof getting 50%-95% checks.

Oh, btw, save yourself the hassle later on, and go roll an advy.

Dude, stop the hating, it makes you look bad. I see you're applying for MA professional. it seems you should probably apply for anger management instead.

[Saetos]

What this game needs, not just at TL5 but universally, is a re-evaluation of the completely insane amount of access that all profesisons have to evade and AAD modifiers. Do you want a ton of evades? Ideally, you should be using auras from a crat - you know, teamwork and stuff, and FunCom loves teamwork PVP. But when all but (two?) professions - Soldier and a couple NanoTechnicians - have AAD/evades high enough that your own equip must be a parallel or greater to their monstrous defenses just to have a decent fight, it starts to become ridiculous.

[Obtena]

Unfortunately, those increases to AAD and evades are due to itemizations. You can blame AI armor and a very minute access to QL 300 OFAB parts for some professions. IMO, it's never been a problem. While recent introductions have increased the scaling of defenses and offenses, getting that 'extreme' setup has always been the goal of twinking and it's always been like this, even before LE.

My main problem with AO PVP is how 1-dimensional it is .... I get the most defense, therefore I live the most. I think there should be some introduction of other tools for various professions that ignore or decrease these. There is a prime example ingame right now ... NT's. The primary reason people dislike NT's is because they have these attacks that are extremely effect against your typical 'defensive' builds. If those unique offenses was expanded more, PVP would be alot less one-dimensional.

Personally, I'm rather disappointed that for as long as AO has been around, the majority of attacks still center around this very safe formula of weaponskill vs. defensive skill checks. Why FC is so unwilling to add more interesting things like Remodulator, etc... I don't know, but it's boring. I don't get excited about new stuff anymore because I know they are following a formula to make them and it's preditable and uninteresting.

[erozc]

Personally, I'm rather disappointed that for as long as AO has been around, the majority of attacks still center around this very safe formula of weaponskill vs. defensive skill checks. Why FC is so unwilling to add more interesting things like Remodulator, etc... I don't know, but it's boring. I don't get excited about new stuff anymore because I know they are following a formula to make them and it's preditable and uninteresting.

On TL5 topic, remove level lock from remodulator too pretty please

[iolanda]

Oh, btw, save yourself the hassle later on, and go roll an advy.

If i can beat a tl5 heavy twinked out advy in a duel on my 165 (retard) of a twink crat that doesnt even have As , i see nothing wrong with the advy proffesion at that level .

[Calamite]

Oh, btw, save yourself the hassle later on, and go roll an advy.

Have you tried ranged advy at tl5? Fyi they have quite low AR so there's no chance for a ranged advy to perk anyone with 100% checking pistol perks. That's why I made this topic, there aren't many tl5 ranged advies, engies, crats or pistol docs as it is, and with pistol perks going to 100% they'll be completely destroyed.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

Let me clarify. Roll a melee advy.

@ Eroz_c: point taken.

I get wound up because I see how badly OP'd they are at TL7, where it's not even worth playing anymore because they just mow down 8 people without breaking a sweat, and, at TL5, it's pretty much the same thing.

OSB'd to the nines, in BS, with GSF, hot, RRFE, in an evade setup, I had an epic fight with one of the better (recently switched) omni advies (who currently doesn't have a token board, or towers, I also don't know if he had any OSB's). The fight lasted a while, and I'm sure not annoyed that he beat me, but, when it's all said and done, there was no chance at me to beat him. And thats what gets me.

All I want is a reasonable chance to kill OR survive any other profession.

Now, add in parry, and providing it works properly, as I have stated before, it might finally provide that last bitof defence we need to be on approximately equal ground against some of the profs which we should (I'm speaking here as a keeper, who by professional design, is STRONGEST vs melee profs) be able to destroy.

The main problem I have with my keeper is vs profs who we should be strongest against, we are weakest. ANd that, is my biggest beef. Vs enf and melee advy, I've got 0-5% chance of winning, against an equally twinked toon.

Against sold, fixer, ranged advy, agent... I understand, they are ranged, keepers are supposed to be weak against them. So thats fine. But, come on, agaisnt melee profs we're supposed to excel, so why is the chance to win so lopsided against us?

[Calamite]

@ McKnuckleSamwich: rant somewhere else please, I'm trying to suggest a constructive idea, or rather prevent tl5 ranged users from getting nerfed even though they aren't among the strongest already (maybe except soldier), it has nothing to do with your keeper losing to melee advies. And yes, unlocking remodulator would be awesome, although I can't think of an engi that would use it, tl5 pets are too gimpy, even with a -750 evade debuff. Would probably be effective for tower wars though.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

@ McKnuckleSamwich: rant somewhere else please, I'm trying to suggest a constructive idea, or rather prevent tl5 ranged users from getting nerfed even though they aren't among the strongest already (maybe except soldier), it has nothing to do with your keeper losing to melee advies. And yes, unlocking remodulator would be awesome, although I can't think of an engi that would use it, tl5 pets are too gimpy, even with a -750 evade debuff. Would probably be effective for tower wars though.

ahh sorry, got off topic there.

I think ranged advies with 100% check are def within the range of "balance"

[Dopecat]

Bump for this thread. Currently my crat isnt an unstoppable alpha machine even with 80% perks at TL5, using Dread pistol + onehander. And it seems both are gonna get nerffed in near future. Perks going to 100% and onehander AS gonna get nerffed too. I could imagine its the same for the rest of the tl5 pistol profs too.

If i can beat a tl5 heavy twinked out advy in a duel on my 165 (retard) of a twink crat that doesnt even have As , i see nothing wrong with the advy proffesion at that level .

Advy is very OP, and just because you happened to pwn probably some clueless noob advy with Rabies (let me guess, didnt cancel morph?) doesnt mean they arent OP against other profs. Ive done the same with my crat too at tl5 in duel couple times, but once you find advy that knows what he is doing, its different story.

Anyways, bump for the lower perkline perks getting lowered def checks for sake of tl5.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

Anyways, bump for the lower perkline perks getting lowered def checks for sake of tl5.

I am not convinced this is the answer, and I'm not convinced that it would help or hinder TL5.

For example: it would help (hopefully) vs advy, MA, crat, keeper, fixer, and pistol vs. dodge range twinked enf.

But, how much would it help? like, if you do another 300 dmg every 45s-60s, it's not really the make-or-breaker.

The problem is, though, it won't help on the DOF cycles, or the ES/DS/ etc cycles on true evades profs, unless the check is really really low.

Granted, if the check IS really really low, then it all of a sudden favors the healing profs, like advies, doctors and agents and of course enf, who is more than able to soak up damage. furthermore, since a crat, for example, will be hit with it every time, it'll throw their balance out, because they'll be getting hit more, and they certainly aren't able to soak up damage.

Regardless, going back to the previous point, how much will a small dmg perk really help, UNLESS, it's the pre-req perk in a chain, which wil be of more benefit at TL7 where there is much more damage at stake.

[Dopecat]

I am not convinced this is the answer, and I'm not convinced that it would help or hinder TL5.

For example: it would help (hopefully) vs advy, MA, crat, keeper, fixer, and pistol vs. dodge range twinked enf.

But, how much would it help? like, if you do another 300 dmg every 45s-60s, it's not really the make-or-breaker.

The problem is, though, it won't help on the DOF cycles, or the ES/DS/ etc cycles on true evades profs, unless the check is really really low.

Granted, if the check IS really really low, then it all of a sudden favors the healing profs, like advies, doctors and agents and of course enf, who is more than able to soak up damage. furthermore, since a crat, for example, will be hit with it every time, it'll throw their balance out, because they'll be getting hit more, and they certainly aren't able to soak up damage.

Regardless, going back to the previous point, how much will a small dmg perk really help, UNLESS, it's the pre-req perk in a chain, which wil be of more benefit at TL7 where there is much more damage at stake.

Im not talking about all profs getting their earlier perks to 80%. The thread is just about the current pistol using ones that got it now to 80% recently which means even support pistol profs such as crat/engi/advi/doc with pistols on could perk some people instead of those perks being mostly useless.

And they dont hit 300dmg at tl5. More like 1k-2k. So they have been great help for my crat. And neither am i hoping to perk Acrobat profs with em. But just for example perk NTs and traders where its race against death as a crat. 1 drain and i have lost against trader. Couple double+triples and i have lost against NT. And crat has miserable NR, so its either alpha them as fast as possible (preferably drop alpha during the time they are AOE feared, if you got the first jump), or lose. And if these perks stop even landing at them, then might aswell just run away whenever i see those profs.

Read the OP's post, its what i agree with, atleast from pistol using perspective. Not 100% sure about shotgun and smg, since im under the impression both traders and fixers have pretty decent ARs. Or other means besides perking everyone to death to win (hots/drains combined with evades).

[Calamite]

Well I added shotgun because there are quite a few crats, engies and docs using it now for AS and easy shot mostly, if both get nerfed I feel for them. Dreadloch pistols on those profs require a heavily offensive setup, whereas shotgun allows full defensive gear. I'm not worried about traders, imo with their debuffs they shouldn't get a weapon or damage perks at all ^_^ (don't flame this, I'm not serious). Fixers... I don't have one of my own so wouldn't know, but from my experience with my other tl5s vs fixers they deserve a bone. And ranged energy could use low check perks just because it's not even remotely possible to get good AR with it for anyone except soldiers, whereas RE weapons are quite attractive to support profs.

[Calamite]

Ok so I see nothing got changed in this department vs previous version. Time to bump this thread. It doesn't make sense that earlier perks check 100% and the last one checks 80-90%. Imo in every weapon line DD perks should check 80% on first one, 90% on second one and 100% on last one, or something like that. So if your AR is slightly less than the target's evades you can land at least *something*, and that something won't be a huge OP DD perk that rips the opponent apart. I'm exaggerating but you catch my drift.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

Ok so I see nothing got changed in this department vs previous version. Time to bump this thread. It doesn't make sense that earlier perks check 100% and the last one checks 80-90%. Imo in every weapon line DD perks should check 80% on first one, 90% on second one and 100% on last one, or something like that. So if your AR is slightly less than the target's evades you can land at least *something*, and that something won't be a huge OP DD perk that rips the opponent apart. I'm exaggerating but you catch my drift.

It definitly makes sense that the first perk in the chain has the lowest check, and does the least damage, with the final perk doing monster damage, but has a higher check.

I like this idea, and it would be nice to see this type of scaling in place. It even makes sense from a lowbie balance standpoint since few if any people at low levels actively fight using evades. Because init's are so low, playing defensively just doesn't cut it, from a PVP or PVM perspective. At low levels, huge dmg and big HP vs big dmg and moderate HP and heals are far better than relying on evades (unless you're a fixer).