Shade Issues

[mr_road]

This is just a summary post to outline some of the issues that shades have in pvp.


Offense and Defense based on offensive perk actions
Offensive and Defense perks like Spirit Phylacerty and Totemic Rites and other health drain perks require the target to be perkable. This means we have a severely limited toolset (offense and defense) versus evade professions.
A lot of shade's don't want to be able to DD perk splat evade professions, but we would like a working defence and a bit more offense when fighting them. Sneak attack has a long recharge and regulars are easily avoided and don't do much damage.


Roots and Snares
Apart from Spatial Displacement (for a shade this is a big sacrifice perk wise) and average Nano Resist, shade's are very suseptible to roots and snares (as they are at the moment). With no first aid in spirits we also don't have access to spirit purges. With no skill lock modifier in spirits MoTR and other such tools are at their full recharge time.
If Disorientate was moved to SR 1, this would open up more perks for SD for pvp shades.


Token Boards
Does the reason for Shade's not getting token boards still apply ?


Health Drains and PVP Damage being halved
No other profession has a significant portion of their healing halved in PVP.


Low level shades and a lack of perk actions
Because of the amount of perks needed to get a complete shade toolset, low level shade's only have access to a small portion of a shade toolset and thus suffer in pvp. This is similar to Keepers.
Possibly open up more perks early on in the perk lines and then boost their performance as more perks are put into the line.

[Snoopdooog]

last time i played shades does fine, but they could need more NR and resistance to roots/snares.

from tl1 to tl6, they seriously need something.

[Mereditche]

last time i played shades does fine, but they could need more NR and resistance to roots/snares.

from tl1 to tl6, they seriously need something.

Your ma shade or your soldier shade?

[Snoopdooog]

probably.. no, a friends 220 shade actualy.

[Mereditche]

Problem with shades I think is there toolset is completely dependend on landing perks, but I understand why FC wont let them land perks on evaders. PM last 3 perks alpha would make this a bit OP. So I have an idee that might help shades, don't shoot me however if you guys don't like.

Make def check varie through the perk chain. So first perk in chain (which also has lowest damage and debuff) has fi a 40% check. Since the damage and debuff is pathetic it doesn't imbalance anything when it lands on everything:
2nd perk: 50% def check
3th perk: 60% def check
4th perk: 70% def check
5th perk: 80% def check
6th perk: 90% def check
last perk: 100% def check

So this way you'll be able to drain up a bit on evaders, like till 4th or 5 th perk in the line and maybe then land that 1st of the 3 huge DD perks on high evaders. So this would make shade toolset work on everyone, but depending on evades you'll get less far in a chain. 3 huge pm damage perks would be OP on some opponents, but this method gives a way to balance it so only 1 or 2 land. It removes the everything or nothing way it works now.

[mr_road]

Problem with shades I think is there toolset is completely dependend on landing perks, but I understand why FC wont let them land perks on evaders. PM last 3 perks alpha would make this a bit OP. So I have an idee that might help shades, don't shoot me however if you guys don't like.

Make def check varie through the perk chain. So first perk in chain (which also has lowest damage and debuff) has fi a 40% check. Since the damage and debuff is pathetic it doesn't imbalance anything when it lands on everything:
2nd perk: 50% def check
3th perk: 60% def check
4th perk: 70% def check
5th perk: 80% def check
6th perk: 90% def check
last perk: 100% def check

So this way you'll be able to drain up a bit on evaders, like till 4th or 5 th perk in the line and maybe then land that 1st of the 3 huge DD perks on high evaders. So this would make shade toolset work on everyone, but depending on evades you'll get less far in a chain. 3 huge pm damage perks would be OP on some opponents, but this method gives a way to balance it so only 1 or 2 land. It removes the everything or nothing way it works now.

nice idea.

tl5 shades will be running around with 60% and 70% check perks as their dd perks.

what i think is more likely/possible is a way for shades to drain the attack rating of a high evade opponent while not touching their defense rating. the opponent would be drained letting the shade have its defense, but the opponent would still be unperkable to the shade and thus retain a significant portion of its defense.

[Mereditche]

tl5 shades will be running around with 60% and 70% check perks as their dd perks.

Two thoughts:
1) tl5 shades aren't that OP and the damage/debuff on the available perks isn't all that great, still...
2) You could make it dependent on the amount of perks you have in a line:
- 4 perked => 4th one is 100%, 3th one 90%, etc.
- 5 perked => 5th one is 100%, 4th one 90%, etc.

Your idea is also possible, but I really dislike the total inability to perk opponents as it renders your toolset useless and leaves you with sa, shd, and normal hits to attack.

So I'd rather have reduced efficiency on evaders, but since the mechanic behind perks makes it 0% or 100%, my idea is the only one I've heard to create reduced efficiency. Otherwise its either no dd perk or all 3 dd perks landing. First option is to weak, second option is OP.

I don't say this is the solution, but the basic idea behind it might be usable under a completely different form to create scaled efficiency for shade perk chains.

[Ferlorn]

I would really like to see the hit ratio on the general perk update before we ask for alot of changes in the PM department.

And, in the case of safer hits, i would like to see SP, not PM, being the first one to get a huge boost in def checks.

[mr_road]

I would really like to see the hit ratio on the general perk update before we ask for alot of changes in the PM department.

And, in the case of safer hits, i would like to see SP, not PM, being the first one to get a huge boost in def checks.

the changes to how the defense of perks is checked is going to be very important. thats why i tried to raise issues and not solutions (straight away anyway).

long perk chains and a 'chance to miss' don't mix very well though.

[NoGoal]

Chains aren't a good idea in PvP anyway. Even less when it's over 2 perks and you are melee.

SP and TR lines should be split in smaller chains like for PM. And debuffs/buffs shouldn't stack over each other but be replaced. Numbers should be changes of course. So perking someone with the last 2 SP perks would entirely debuff him and buff the shade. Using the full chain would give a little extra.

Heals being a % of damage done should be removed imho. Or at least allow them to pierce through reflects. It affects shades the most but some other profs would benefit from that too.

[iolanda]

Problem with shades I think is there toolset is completely dependend on landing perks, but I understand why FC wont let them land perks on evaders. PM last 3 perks alpha would make this a bit OP. So I have an idee that might help shades, don't shoot me however if you guys don't like.

Make def check varie through the perk chain. So first perk in chain (which also has lowest damage and debuff) has fi a 40% check. Since the damage and debuff is pathetic it doesn't imbalance anything when it lands on everything:
2nd perk: 50% def check
3th perk: 60% def check
4th perk: 70% def check
5th perk: 80% def check
6th perk: 90% def check
last perk: 100% def check

So this way you'll be able to drain up a bit on evaders, like till 4th or 5 th perk in the line and maybe then land that 1st of the 3 huge DD perks on high evaders. So this would make shade toolset work on everyone, but depending on evades you'll get less far in a chain. 3 huge pm damage perks would be OP on some opponents, but this method gives a way to balance it so only 1 or 2 land. It removes the everything or nothing way it works now.

I understand some people tend to agree that some proffesions are in need of something new . But please until you actualy spend time working on a shade leveling to 220 and getting to know the proffesion at hand a simple "I support the idea " works .
I have nothing against you , for speaking your mind . But please understand like all proffesions there are people that just dont like to work . I wont give out example just understand that you are feeding semi trolls . Mr_road knows shades so do others but there are more then a few out there that have a shade and dont even know how there perks work .

From a perspective of a 220/30/70 shade wich i had , i can asure your idea would turn into something realy bad , especialy at 220 . We would stand at a point "walking dshark" used to be when it hit the live server .

[Mereditche]

From a perspective of a 220/30/70 shade wich i had , i can asure your idea would turn into something realy bad , especialy at 220 . We would stand at a point "walking dshark" used to be when it hit the live server .

And why would you think that. All depends on the defense check you put on every perk in the chain until you reach an acceptable balance. It can be:

last perk 100% check
6th perk 97% check
5th perk 94% check
etc.

So imagine def checks are balanced so you would only land the first 3 perks on fixers. I can't see how that would be so OP. What it would provide is a boost in damage like the OP asks. It removes the 100% on or off problem which causes shade perks to either be completely OP or completely useless.

It's actually the first practical idea I see here on how to scale DD perks for shades, which is the basis of the current problem with them. When all perks have the same check they are either useless or OP.

[iolanda]

You still have to bypass the biggest problem when it comes to changes :


How will you ( As a Dev) decide how much to lower should the def check be :
Will you make it so it will work for a 220 end game shade ?
Will you make it work for a 220 decent setuped shade ?
Will you make it work for a 215 shade in predator ?


Basicly the fix would either be worthless to some shades or be good to most and very Overpowered in the hands of a end game setup , or it will work at lower title levels and be sucky at tl7 .

[mr_road]

Heals being a % of damage done should be removed imho. Or at least allow them to pierce through reflects. It affects shades the most but some other profs would benefit from that too.

i'm kind of ok with health drains not working when the target is ams'd or got coon up. if we can't damage the target, we shouldn't get health from it.

but the healed percentage should be twice as big because 'the essence of a person has a greater potency than that of an npc'.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

snip.
Low level shades and a lack of perk actions
Because of the amount of perks needed to get a complete shade toolset, low level shade's only have access to a small portion of a shade toolset and thus suffer in pvp. This is similar to Keepers.
Possibly open up more perks early on in the perk lines and then boost their performance as more perks are put into the line.

I read all this and agree with all, but this last statement is so uberly clear and unabashedly truthful! shades and keepers toolsets are WTFGNAKKED upto about 207 or so when they actually start getting enough perks to do stuff.