Lockout timer on Roots / Snares

[Xenotric]

because fixers are paragons of damage?

And as I've said in a 1v1 situation sure things can get a bit iffy, but mass pvp its suprising if a fixer survives 13 seconds if theres more then say 3 people there who will inevitably have some way to bypass the fixers entire defense.

While people insist on pvp being an instant thing where the win or loose will happen within say 20 seconds things are always going to be unbalanced. It seems to be funcoms intention to slow things back down so things wont be so bad.

Also this happens:

Snare lands: Time remaining 28minutes 39 seconds (longest player snare I beleive)
0s - Flingshot, snare breaks, burst, full auto/as
1-4 seconds: Melee is free to do as they wish, fixer can't cast any nanos due to cool down, fight carrys on as if fixer hadn't done much except possibly lower nano pool on his side.

So yes it is possible for a fixer to have 12 seconds of "free" (if you call spending IP to cast part of the tool set, spending enough nano points on landing it and still being able to reliably hurt people free) but theres also the possibility that the snare will break on the first fling shot and leave the fixer unable to cast anything while the meleer attacks.

Why should people not have to work to counter act a tool that some people actually have to work to use effectively?

Now I'd be down for reducing snares and roots duration down to long enough to be an issue (say 10 second roots, 30 second snares) as long as they are no longer instantly removable (as roots and snares that long would be removed in a single second by anyone and still instantly some) however I think its much better if people had to work to counter things rather then it just happen due to complaints. 10 seconds rooted because thats how long they last or 10 seconds rooted because you actively worked to reduce them. If you dont want to take measures against them then you suffer the longer durations.

[Ashes2Ashes]

because fixers are paragons of damage?

And as I've said in a 1v1 situation sure things can get a bit iffy, but mass pvp its suprising if a fixer survives 13 seconds if theres more then say 3 people there who will inevitably have some way to bypass the fixers entire defense.

While people insist on pvp being an instant thing where the win or loose will happen within say 20 seconds things are always going to be unbalanced. It seems to be funcoms intention to slow things back down so things wont be so bad.

Also this happens:

Snare lands: Time remaining 28minutes 39 seconds (longest player snare I beleive)
0s - Flingshot, snare breaks, burst, full auto/as
1-4 seconds: Melee is free to do as they wish, fixer can't cast any nanos due to cool down.

So yes it is possible for a fixer to have 12 seconds of "free" (if you call spending IP to cast part of the tool set, spending enough nano points on landing it and still being able to reliably hurt people free) but theres also the possibility that the snare will break on the first fling shot and leave the fixer unable to cast anything while the meleer attacks.

The thing tho is this, I would have no problems with there being no break chance on roots / snares if they weren't spamable, and had a decent lock timer, short duration. Just like the pvp fears snare componant has no break chance.

For MA it's a 6s -2k runspeed snare w/ 2:30 lockout
For Enf it's a 5s -2k runspeed snare w/ 3:00 lockout

I wouldn't be opposed to something like 8-12s on root, 10-18s on snare. Thats 2 - 3 times longer than pvp fears effects. Maybe around 1:00 lockout.


It's not up to me to decide how short / long they will be... FC I am sure can pick something thats fair and balanced. I'm just here to put a voice to something that would be a beneficial game change to help melee professions. Give some suggestions, and to spark a discussion. My idea of fair / balanced may be biased, but I think something along these lines are a start to making gameplay a lil more fun for melee's.

[Neuromotor]

P.S. As for nano cost killing your nano pool after 3 casts?! Greater Prolong Encounter - 643 nano cost, and Spin Nanoweb - 655 nano cost... 655*3 = 1965*.4 (40% nano cost on avg fixer) = 1179 ( lets say 100 nano delta) 100*6 = 600 // 1179-600 = 579 total nano loss from 3 casts... For nano cost to damage done.. that has to be the best Nuke ever.

Ouch, my setup is really far below average, -23% cost and an amazing 4 nano delta from all gear combined, excluding social tab
Oh, and almost twice the FA recharge as well

[Ashes2Ashes]

Ouch, my setup is really far below average, -23% cost and an amazing 4 nano delta from all gear combined, excluding social tab
Oh, and almost twice the FA recharge as well

Heh, ok I admit cost%, nano deleta will vary from person to person, was my mistake to generalize like that. But the point still stands, all that damage is being dumped into the melee profession while in return he does 0. Even at 2k nano cost thats a great tradeoff to be totally immune to the melee's attacks, while you kill them. Would love to be able to spend 2k nano to dump all those specials / perks / regular hits into someone while they do 0 damage to me during that time.

And that is the point I am trying to make in this thread, currently with the way things work it's just not fun to be on the recieving end of roots / snares as a melee profession. I would feel differently if I were ranged, and was still able to shoot / perk the person rooting / snaring me.

[Shrubberyman]

When you root / snare a ranged user they can attack you back via weapons, nukes, pets, perks, but when you do the same to melee they have no way of attacking you. Thier weapons don't have 40m range, nor do thier perks. They don't have nukes, nor pets that can reach you either. So as long as you keep refreshing your roots / snares they are basically a free kill for you, or any other ranged users that happen to be there.

Ah, yea, that seems pretty fair to me

The "ridiculous" part is that it has gone on for so long without any changes. And to add insult to injury, people even defend this kind of gameplay where you can lock a person down indefinately to one spot and beat on them until they are dead, all the while posing no threat to the person doing the roots/snares.

No one is asking for CC to be removed from pvp. CC is a very powerful tool vs. melee, to ranged users, not so much as they can still pose a threat to you. But to keep someone locked down who can't even attack back isn't right, fair, nor fun.

Well, let's see...
Maybe because some CC users have less defence vs evade than they do vs dodge?
Maybe because all melee profs have high to very high AR
Maybe because a part of them can not only hurt you bad but at the same time stun you to hell or drain you underground.
Maybe for all these reasons, melee are best of rooted far away from you. Allow me however to remind you enfoes can free themselves from all but one prof's CC tools, that MAs are immuned to Stuns and half immune to roots/snares, that keepers can perk SD and have a 35% resistance nanoline. Let's not speak about advies, shall we? The weakest melee prof would be shade against roots.


If locks or whatever had to be added (god forbid more stupid locks of any kind), it would had to come with a complete wipe of the means to break/free from CC tools.

[DePreach]

To the best of my knowledge all roots have a high chance to break on attack, the only time it will last any decent amount of time is if someone roots you and leaves you there. In which case you have all the time in the world to use free movements... etc.

Snares land, have a chance to break on attack but do not stop you in your tracks, you are still free to move, except my runspeed is now faster than yours.

If something should be done then I think a perk line should be put in, similar to MR which takes an investment of 10 perks to be able to clear the top line of snares but reduces NR. People want something for nothing, it should be a matter of choice and sacrificing something to get immunity. I thought this is exactly what the NR perkline was for. But you don't want to perk it because you might have to sacrifice something.

A lockout timer on snares unfortunately will make PvP a joke, if I run around a corner into some DD melee prof who was snared in the last 1 minute then I am dead. Nothing I can do about it.

I also have a whole suite of tools to remove the snare/root effects on people around me, invaluable in NW battles and on the BS I spend a lot of time unrooting people, they were introduced for a reason because roots and snares are as valid an offensive tool as specials and removers are as valid a defensive tool as evades and blockers.

As a crat however I would agree to halving the time the roots and snares last in return for halving the check against defences. Half the decently equipped people I try to root or snare resist. I would also agree to having a lockout on 1 of 2 conditions...

I have enough lines of snares to lock people down for the duration of the lockouts. Obviously free movement stims will reduce this OR I get a lockout on everyone elses tool set. a 2 minute AS lockout, a 3 minute GTH lockout, 5 minute drain lockout etc etc.

I sacrifice a lot of AR for the nano skills to land these nanos and the defence skill to avoid them, personally I think this part of the toolset is broken because it doesn't land all the time, but like you say I need to redress your post not my broken toolkit.

[Hacre]

10000% Agreed on this.

to have a fixer or crat or NT or Trade just root you for 2-3 minutes (either chain or otherwise) is hella detrimental to 'FUN', especially since Free Movement stims aren't instant.

FMs might not be instant, but Ancient Spirit Purges are. Farm some, use them, never worry about roots/snares/blinds again.

Roots also don't last 2-3 minutes on anyone, ever, unless they just stand there waiting for them to time out.

Before roots/snares even get threatened with any sort of nerf bat, the plethora of ways in which people can remove/ignore/lol at crowd control need to be sorted out.

[navycut]

FMs might not be instant, but Ancient Spirit Purges are. Farm some, use them, never worry about roots/snares/blinds again.

Roots also don't last 2-3 minutes on anyone, ever, unless they just stand there waiting for them to time out.

Before roots/snares even get threatened with any sort of nerf bat, the plethora of ways in which people can remove/ignore/lol at crowd control need to be sorted out.

Ancient Spirit Purge:
To Use User First aid >= 1501

Don't think much ppl have that amount of 1st aid but anyway roots aren't all that much of a problem to me, they do work to slow me down though but not completely stop me indefinitely, which I guess is the way it should work. I do feel for the shades though :P and at tl5, roots/snares are a bit ridiculous. If however I didn't have SD perked, well I will just stand there helplessly as some nab chain roots me and keeps me there.

[Hacre]

Ancient Spirit Purge:
To Use User First aid >= 1501

Don't think much ppl have that amount of 1st aid but anyway roots aren't all that much of a problem to me, they do work to slow me down though but not completely stop me indefinitely, which I guess is the way it should work. I do feel for the shades though :P and at tl5, roots/snares are a bit ridiculous. If however I didn't have SD perked, well I will just stand there helplessly as some nab chain roots me and keeps me there.

You can make QL250 stims that only need 1252 First Aid, which is more than twinkable.

I still have a stack on my Keeper.

[SSK]

1st fact: there's no spamable roots (they usually have ~5s recharge, so on nano counter, caster have plenty of time to go splat).
2nd fact: nobody can be root locked if they don't want to (there's too many of tools to remove or gain resistance to CC)

I agree on reducing duration, 30 min PvM snares are ridiculous. 10-15s roots and 30-60s snares should be fine, but they must land more easy and to resist/counter/remove them should be harder. Immunity lockouts is bad idea imho, it could be implemented as diminishing returns system, where more you get CCed, more % to break/resist or whatever chance you get.

[Xenotric]

reducing the duration currently would be the same as removing them from the game.

Not to mention 30min snare duration has sometimes not been enough (yeah my bad for soloing pink dyna's on a fixer but still) where it doesnt matter, 30 minutes is fine, where it does matter no ones going to have it last for longer then 30 seconds anyway.

[jorricane]

Speaking purely from a tl5 crat prespective - void inertia has a relatively high nano cost (considering how ofter you need to spam it up), is easily removable (2-3 FM stims), and breaks constantly on damage. Some of the other profession roots are much more unbalanced, but a general nerf to all CC tools is not the answer.

Secondarily, if CC tools are given long lockouts, root/snare removers need to be correspondingly increased in lockout time - don't make roots unspammable while rage remains spammable. Increase the effectiveness of FM stims (a single stim to remove most roots) but with a long lockout time (also locking out health/nano stims). Most of the remaining anti-CC tools (MoTR, tacky hack) already have a long enought lockout and don't really need a change in that scenario.

[Calamite]

Roots and snares are OP? o.O Say what? Maybe I should actually start using them on my crat? Seriously, what you're saying is unrealistic in any way, not at tl7 at least. Chain rooting someone at tl7 CAN NEVER HAPPEN. Why? Because roots/snares bypass 1. NR check 2. resistance check 3. break on sneeze and are removable 4. have long enough recharge, and NTs, crats, agents and traders have other stuff to cast, so they can't just spam roots (unless they want to specifically chain root you without any fighting, in that case /petition for harassment). Fixers are screwed at stage 1 due to relatively low nano skills.


As for reducing root durations: OK as long as ALL means of removing it are gone and recharge time lowered along with making them unbreakable (no more FM stims, MoTR, resistances, IS rods etc.) but the duration should be no less than 15 seconds. Being a crat I got "uber" unremovable root procs that last 5-8 seconds I believe, and from experience I can tell this: by the time you see the graphical effect of the root it's already gone, so there's little to no use for a root of that duration.

[EmSeeBee]

FMs might not be instant, but Ancient Spirit Purges are. Farm some, use them, never worry about roots/snares/blinds again.

Roots also don't last 2-3 minutes on anyone, ever, unless they just stand there waiting for them to time out.

Before roots/snares even get threatened with any sort of nerf bat, the plethora of ways in which people can remove/ignore/lol at crowd control need to be sorted out.

Agreed. I don't think snares need nerfing at all tbh. If it'll appease the whiners then they should maybe allow all profs access to the Spatial Displacement perkline...that way if roots and snares really bother you that much you can gain a certain % of snare immunity at the cost of some perks (45% innate resist at SD 10, plus removal perks).

Honestly traders can chain drain you for like 800 pts of AR, nanoskills, etc, docs and agents can chain UBT (both of which can only be removed by virus scanners out of combat) and you're complaining that it takes 4 free movement stims to break a root? The funny thing about this thread is that people are proposing a 12-15 second duration on all roots but the fact of the matter is it only takes about 10-12 seconds to break a root with free movement stims, and even less as Hacre pointed out, with Ancient Spirit Purges, Rods of Dismissal, etc.

Roots and Snares don't need nerfing...drains, ubt and fears do.

[Grafter]

FMs might not be instant, but Ancient Spirit Purges are. Farm some, use them, never worry about roots/snares/blinds again.

Roots also don't last 2-3 minutes on anyone, ever, unless they just stand there waiting for them to time out.

Before roots/snares even get threatened with any sort of nerf bat, the plethora of ways in which people can remove/ignore/lol at crowd control need to be sorted out.

i have over 30 bps of glands that have been in my bank since a week or two after albatraum went live. i assume you want to make 'em up for me?