Healing Nerf Idea

[Gatester]

But there prolly are already plans for reduced heal spamming. Local recharge, quote from doc forum below. The local recharge and a big+small heal is most likely what we will get.
How about we wait out those change before we suggest more and more nerf and lockout from heal nanos.

I actually posted this before I saw the plans for doctors, but if there is any merit in it I actually suggested something very similar to the local recharge in the doctor forums before, I could link it if you would like?

This has got to be one of the dumbest threads ive seen in a long time...

First off, DO NOT lump docs and advys into the same group. Two different profs with two very different toolsets and play styles.

Secondly, Do you really think that casting heals should hurt the doctor? Really think before you type please. That like everytime you mongo it heals less, every time you rage u get less benefits, every time you cast layers you get less, everytime someone blinds the debuff is less. It makes no sense, if you wouldn't want it to happen to your prof, don't suggest it for others.

Third, ICH is mainly a pvm heal. Its very rarely used in pvp and even when it is its a one time life saving button. Comparing the amount it heals vs our normal heals isnt even comparable.

Forth, You are wanting to nerf our only defense so we can only cast every XX amount of seconds? You are aware that our heals are our only defense. Docs dont get evades, crazy HP, coon, reflects and other defensive tools. We have heals, and that is it.

If a doctor has alot heal eff, he should get to keep it. We have to give up other things to get that amount and shouldn't be punished for it.

Most of all try reading the doc forums first.

And No to everything you suggested gate.

Ouch, but since I decided to take a break from AO I'm not going to go crazy with a reply or anything, but maybe chill out?

I did not lump you with advy, I even said doctors should probly be less effected by this than advy are and I did say ALL healing.

Casting heals should not hurt docs, spamming them every 5 seconds should. It is not like you would go from 0 to -50% heal eff instantly when trying to survive an alpha, this would occur after you survived the alpha if ever. The biggest effect here would be PVM, where 1 doctor may not become enough to do a full Pande Raid.

A little note about enforcer rage, its getting a lockout. So be careful what you say to justify your points, you almost sound like you just gave the go ahead for a nerf to your healing. Also things like "blinds" should not be spammable on people, hence the top one at least has a lockout.

Docs do get crazy hp...honestly I do not know of any other profession that beats them besides enforcers. Besides, no one can push doctors to 50% or lower health every 10 seconds for a duration of a fight except high end DD, should they not be given some sort of advantage against doctors?

Seriously, there is no reason to get so hostile, if it is a bad idea it will not get accepted. I even asked for input and suggestions but if all you want to do is get offended and angry then take it out somewhere else. Show some respect.

[Mekh]

Hi, I'm an mp. Maybe you haven't seen my damage? My perk "alpha" has a 2 minute + recharge. It also has a 30sec cast time to execute. With my pets UBT'd (with no way to remove) and the doc resisting 50% of my nukes, it takes me at least 1 minute to knock off as much HP as a doc has. So, yes, full HP every 20sec is a tad OP since they can also use normal heals during this downtime as well.

You forgot to mention
- (e)-NSD and there goes the heals... We have removers, yes... but you can just cast it again remember... Or has the Doc alphaed you now maybe?

- Beneficial Scourge and there goes 50% healing...

- Notum Rejection: Now the Doc is loosing nano too...

- Mezz pet if you have it there and cast time for that doc is going up or he may not have time to DoT you.

You also have pets and damage from weapons as well as from nukes (after you've disabled/nerfed the dOC), most likely AS on top of that as well as fling shot and regular hits that ALL land on a doc, so the doc want's to heal self by now already... Prolly even a few times, but...

As it stands with docs currently, they can heal over 300k HP in a minute (counting ICH as 20k hp). Your top DD's in pvm hit 250k-300k DPM. Half that for pvp and you get ~150k DPM. Now just imagine that they are UBT'd. This proves that a good doc could outheal 2 shades w/o stuns being a factor. You see no problem here?

However... stuns IS a factor just as their nano drains are, especially combined with a nano drain ring... LOL

and UBT affects their perks and sneak attack / Fast attack how much you said?

[Flyingengi]

You forgot to mention
- (e)-NSD and there goes the heals... We have removers, yes... but you can just cast it again remember... Or has the Doc alphaed you now maybe?

- Notum Rejection: Now the Doc is loosing nano too...

- Mezz pet if you have it there and cast time for that doc is going up or he may not have time to DoT you.

NSD might land 1/10. eNSD might land 1/2. 3 removers with 10sec immunity on them. Good luck with that.

Notum regection has 140% NR check, even if it did land most docs can survive with it easily vs an mp.

Mezz pet landing nanos in pvp? lol

[Kazeren]

Your suggestions get old when time after time its for the same prof I am not even sure you play or understand.

Saying its bad we spam it every 5 seconds just shows you don't understand how a doctor works. If heals arnt spammed we die. We have no other forum of defense. Your suggestion would make our only defense hurt us, how is that reasonable?

I am very aware of whats happening to rage because I am actively discussing it in the enf forums. It was said to make a point to you. If you wouldn't want it to happen to your prof. don't suggest it for others.

Crazy HP is possible, meaning 30k with BI running. Which in mass pvp is worthless because a doctor can not out heal the capped specials. Even with special swaping nerf we are still going to get capped making anything over 25k not worth it. We also go with high hp setups because we lack any defense aside from heals (see the connection?).

I will give you the respect I give everyone else when you stop trying to change how profs work when you don't know how they work in the first place. Your posts show you don't know how docs work so its fairly obvious. Docs have enough on their plate to deal with without other people making bad suggestions and having other chime in and scream nerf docs.

[XenonDe]

I actually posted this before I saw the plans for doctors, but if there is any merit in it I actually suggested something very similar to the local recharge in the doctor forums before, I could link it if you would like?

No Need. I posted in it saying that the idea wasn't even needed because they could use the local cooldown mechanic from ICH and use it for other nanos to fix debuff spamming and nano recharge issues, and yeah I am well aware it was before they finally announced local cooldown after we asked for it for months.

Your post may have been before the announces about cooldown, the others certainly haven't and imply that a nerf in that regard isn't enough.

Hi, I'm an mp. Maybe you haven't seen my damage? My perk "alpha" has a 2 minute + recharge. It also has a 30sec cast time to execute. With my pets UBT'd (with no way to remove) and the doc resisting 50% of my nukes, it takes me at least 1 minute to knock off as much HP as a doc has. So, yes, full HP every 20sec is a tad OP since they can also use normal heals during this downtime as well.


As it stands with docs currently, they can heal over 300k HP in a minute (counting ICH as 20k hp). Your top DD's in pvm hit 250k-300k DPM. Half that for pvp and you get ~150k DPM. Now just imagine that they are UBT'd. This proves that a good doc could outheal 2 shades w/o stuns being a factor. You see no problem here?

Oh nice paper pvp. Let's ignore stuns, cast times, countering chance when full agg opposed to casting time on full def on your 300k healed HP per minute, as well as heal eff debuff, assuming every heal heals for maximum.

Let's also take pvm damage from DD whoring setup docs, dotting multiple mobs at ONCE with close to zero counters and assume that damage figure for a pvp scenario ignoring the 30-50% only land chance of dots, having to heal and not dotting multiple persons at once.

Way to go! (Btw get the ring!)

NSD might land 1/10. eNSD might land 1/2. 3 removers with 10sec immunity on them. Good luck with that.

Notum regection has 140% NR check, even if it did land most docs can survive with it easily vs an mp.

Mezz pet landing nanos in pvp? lol

- While both NSD removers state they give immunity they never did. What's your third remover with 10 second immunity?
- Landing on doc is either hard - then you have a full def low hp doc that doesn't use BI, or damn easy.. then you have your high HP BI using doc.

I hate to give out tips against docs, but try using the BM and MC dominates. You won't get dotted or see the doc easily casting ICH after that.

[XenonDe]

So do you really think docs don't heal too much?

With the rebalance and slowed alphas there has to be a change to Defenses. Heals are part of that. So yes, we realize the need. In fact we asked for self only heals many times allready to deal with the power of heals on others.

The posts here are not about that need though but ludicrous nerf on top of the allready coming ones.

[Flyingengi]

With the rebalance and slowed alphas there has to be a change to Defenses. Heals are part of that. So yes, we realize the need. In fact we asked for self only heals many times allready to deal with the power of heals on others.

The posts here are not about that need though but ludicrous nerf on top of the allready coming ones.

I'm talking about self as well.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

omg jax, docs do too heal themselves way too much in PVP.

When you've got -10503927 inits, and all you've got is perk damage and 1 non capping special, uhh, ya! docs DO heal themselves too much.

PVP fights shouldn't last 45 minutes, they should last 2-3 minutes, and, if you're sitting there healing yourself with full nanopool at 3minutes in, something is wrong.

If an MA, sold, fixer, enf, keeper, shade or whoever other DD class blows his entire alpha on you, you should be well on your way to having not enough nano to provide yourself with necessary nano heals to easily maintain health, if you survive the alpha.

The problem with docs is that they heal themselves forever! Thats EXACTLY the problem.

If docs coudl effectively heal themself for 2 minutes, but then be running out of nano, then it would be ok. But, it's not like that. A doc can heal FOREVER!

The only reason a doc runs out of nano anymore is because he spams malp, which is OP'd anyway, so, either way, anyone fighting a doc is getting screwed.

I hope I don't hear anyone else talk about how if theres 2-1 it's hard to survive, because, thats the biggest bullsh$t story of todays half assed PVPers who want to survive a 2-1 encounter. If you're surviving a 2-1 encounter, or you WANT to, you need a reality check.

This is reality check, I hold you in a bear hug, my buddy comes over and louisville sluggers your face. Thats 2-1. No lie.

[XenonDe]

It's allready confirmed that doctors will "struggle hard to keep up nano for heals". Until then I suggest you look into one of the many ways to drain nano, especially with MA or one of the ways to debuffs inits. Nanoresist helps a lot against dots and malp though and dots alone would suck a doc dry, as will heals eventually... but those can be spammed quite a long time indeed.

Funny though that your fights with docs seem to last 45 minutes yet malp is OPed.


There is a heal and nanocost nerf coming already. Why don't you guys just wait and look how that is going to be before you suggest more and more new ways to nerf heals or complain about things that have been stated to change MONTHS ago (nanocost on heals).

[Kazeren]

omg jax, docs do too heal themselves way too much in PVP.

Its our only defense, thats like me saying you evade to much and telling you you should evade so much because i have a hard time killing you.

When you've got -10503927 inits, and all you've got is perk damage and 1 non capping special, uhh, ya! docs DO heal themselves too much.

Not sure what your talking about.

PVP fights shouldn't last 45 minutes, they should last 2-3 minutes, and, if you're sitting there healing yourself with full nanopool at 3minutes in, something is wrong.

1v1 pvp is no intersted to me because FC is not balancing it for that. No doctor who is trying to kill anyone will have full nano pool. In fact i need damn near all 19.3k of mine to kill people because i have no AS and malp does get resisted fairly often, as well as DoTs.

If an MA, sold, fixer, enf, keeper, shade or whoever other DD class blows his entire alpha on you, you should be well on your way to having not enough nano to provide yourself with necessary nano heals to easily maintain health, if you survive the alpha.

So when someone dumps is alpha into you your evades/reflects/adsorbs are all be almost gone, meaning next to 0 and it will take you 3 mins to get them back to pre fight status right? No they don't. Nano does suffer from that however.

The problem with docs is that they heal themselves forever! Thats EXACTLY the problem.

And you evade forever, don't see doctors complaining and you don't see us asking for evades nerf or NR nerf.

If docs coudl effectively heal themself for 2 minutes, but then be running out of nano, then it would be ok. But, it's not like that. A doc can heal FOREVER!

I don't see your evades running out, do you?

The only reason a doc runs out of nano anymore is because he spams malp, which is OP'd anyway, so, either way, anyone fighting a doc is getting screwed.

Yea then we are screwed on healing ourselves, pretty fair.

I hope I don't hear anyone else talk about how if theres 2-1 it's hard to survive, because, thats the biggest bullsh$t story of todays half assed PVPers who want to survive a 2-1 encounter. If you're surviving a 2-1 encounter, or you WANT to, you need a reality check.

Idk why your compaling to docs about this. Ive seen every other prof do the same as well. People only notice doctors more because unlike everyone elses HP ours is constantly changing because of the huge amouns of damage we take and our ability to heal it back up. You see our hp bar going back and forth like a ping pong game. Most other profs just move slowly down.

[Flyingengi]

"It's our only defense" is pathetic. It's like a fixer saying they should get 10k evades because it's their only defense. You don't consider init debuffs a defense? If you don't, I'll gladly take them from you.

Just because something is your main defense does not give it the right to be that massively over powered.

[XenonDe]

"It's our only defense" is pathetic. It's like a fixer saying they should get 10k evades because it's their only defense. You don't consider init debuffs a defense? If you don't, I'll gladly take them from you.

No, It's like a fixer saying "Don't nerf our evades further then already planned, it's our only defense".

At the current state of pvp Init debuffs help against nanocasters and pets. Procs I'd be glad if they are removed oto because it's a stupid mechnismn and even as the doc procs are hurting doctors the most.
But yes, they are a tool that plays part in our defense. It's backing up the heals though and is almost worthless against mitigating damage from non nano/pet users or MAs.

If you want to count that as defense, so would NSD be a defense. So would drains be a defense. So would dominates be a defense. So would roots be a defense. While they can support on the defense, they are not a defense. Without evades or heals a MP would be dead. Without evades, nanorest or DtN effects a trader would be dead. You'll get the idea..

Just because something is your main defense does not give it the right to be that massively over powered.

Well durr. Where does it say "there will be no heal nerf" or even "No heal nerf is planned"?. Right... Heal nerf is happening and they have a way in mind. So sit back and watch how it turns out before you contnue to burn more houses.

[Gatester]

I will give you the respect I give everyone else when you stop trying to change how profs work when you don't know how they work in the first place. Your posts show you don't know how docs work so its fairly obvious. Docs have enough on their plate to deal with without other people making bad suggestions and having other chime in and scream nerf docs.

You say healing is a doctors ONLY defense, so what part am I not understanding? If you have a single defense, then it should be easy to guage how much that defense should work. The alternatives to reducing heal effectiveness in one of many ways are with nerfs, cooldowns, or rescaling every heal in AO.

Obviously, if you can outheal damage from every single profession in game no matter their DPM then you have too much healing. If you are easily killed by alphas while stunned, then you need more static healing. What is so complicated that I am not understanding, or did you not read the part where I said this suggestion might need to come with increased HoT for doctors?


Either way the suggestion is not needed, since FC seems to know what they want to do now. This arrogance that comes with professions thinking their toolsets are so difficult needs to go, however. Every profession needs a way to kill another profession, and your level of healing prevents most from killing doctors. There is absolutely nothing else you can do to a doctor to make them possible to kill besides adjusting their healing, so get over it when someone offers suggestions to do so.

[Kazeren]

If you cleaned your ears Mr. Hostile You would know that doctors fully accept and acknowledge that their heals need to, and will be lowered.

Like i said, try reading the doc forums before making unneeded suggestions.

[XenonDe]

Obviously, if you can outheal damage from every single profession in game no matter their DPM then you have too much healing. If you are easily killed by alphas while stunned, then you need more static healing. What is so complicated that I am not understanding, or did you not read the part where I said this suggestion might need to come with increased HoT for doctors?

Actually you hit the nail on the head with the increased hot...
It's not like we hadn't asked for that before. But naturally any suggestion of that kind had been trolled to "closed", because it "would be op if damage wouldn't stop us from dotting". Go figure.

To clarify about the bad points of the initial suggestion of lowering heals when spamming and what I assume Kaz had in mind:
- We heal at least once within a 12 second period whether we are taking damage or not, if only to have the HP buff everyone seems to expect we naturally have.
- In a usual BS round I'm in nanorecharge 100% of the time and that is mostly from healing. Even with the timespan needed between heals decreased I would run around with 50% decreased heal eff the entire time. ANY heal eff debuff coming my way then would render me near defenseless.
- In order to avoid debuff and keep themselves alive we would have to stop healing others which being a doctor is all about.
- It would take ~30 seconds to get me down to 50% heal effency IF I hadn't used any heal before. After that I'll be dead. Only people I could kill within that timespan are greens, underequiped and unexperienced players.

[Kazeren]

What Xeon said. There are more reasons or different explanations as well. However gate you get on my nervs because it always seems as if you don't think about what you suggest from the view point of the prof your suggesting it for. My apologies if i offended you but i gave you my reasons in this and previous posts.

[Mekh]

Actually you hit the nail on the head with the increased hot...
It's not like we hadn't asked for that before. But naturally any suggestion of that kind had been trolled to "closed", because it "would be op if damage wouldn't stop us from dotting". Go figure.

To clarify about the bad points of the initial suggestion of lowering heals when spamming and what I assume Kaz had in mind:
- We heal at least once within a 12 second period whether we are taking damage or not, if only to have the HP buff everyone seems to expect we naturally have.
- In a usual BS round I'm in nanorecharge 100% of the time and that is mostly from healing. Even with the timespan needed between heals decreased I would run around with 50% decreased heal eff the entire time. ANY heal eff debuff coming my way then would render me near defenseless.
- In order to avoid debuff and keep themselves alive we would have to stop healing others which being a doctor is all about.
- It would take ~30 seconds to get me down to 50% heal effency IF I hadn't used any heal before. After that I'll be dead. Only people I could kill within that timespan are greens, underequiped and unexperienced players.

Spot on...

[Cyberleet]

I like the doc-heals. Can't say it's that easy to chainheal either as doc in descent endgamegear.

What I would like to see changed is the "natural HP-regeneration" in combat (only), where people sit down and suddenly they are fixers.

[Gatester]

Actually you hit the nail on the head with the increased hot...
It's not like we hadn't asked for that before. But naturally any suggestion of that kind had been trolled to "closed", because it "would be op if damage wouldn't stop us from dotting". Go figure.

To clarify about the bad points of the initial suggestion of lowering heals when spamming and what I assume Kaz had in mind:
- We heal at least once within a 12 second period whether we are taking damage or not, if only to have the HP buff everyone seems to expect we naturally have.
- In a usual BS round I'm in nanorecharge 100% of the time and that is mostly from healing. Even with the timespan needed between heals decreased I would run around with 50% decreased heal eff the entire time. ANY heal eff debuff coming my way then would render me near defenseless.
- In order to avoid debuff and keep themselves alive we would have to stop healing others which being a doctor is all about.
- It would take ~30 seconds to get me down to 50% heal effency IF I hadn't used any heal before. After that I'll be dead. Only people I could kill within that timespan are greens, underequiped and unexperienced players.

What Xeon said. There are more reasons or different explanations as well. However gate you get on my nervs because it always seems as if you don't think about what you suggest from the view point of the prof your suggesting it for. My apologies if i offended you but i gave you my reasons in this and previous posts.

It takes so long for the posts I need sometimes lol. This is what I want when I make a suggestion, a breakdown of experiences and issues so that I can refine it. Either way Kaz, I am not offended by your posts or you being upset with me, I am not callous enough to think you do not have a right to defend your professions, I simply ask for enough respect to "correct" my suggestions utilizing the experiences I do not have. If you want to piss me off, lie or make assumptions (like I only want to nerf your professions blah blah blah).

[Phylicity]

I dont think this will even become an issue with the local recharge mechanics coming into play. We might be FORCED not to chain heal. Its all speculation on how funcom intend those mechanics to actually work, how long they lock out BI for example...