Low Level Trader(s) Drains

[Hacre]

I don't want to remove drains. This is a simple change that would increase the viability of other professions at low levels.

Read: make Traders as crap as everyone else.

No thanks. I'd rather other professions got some boosts. Enforcers can compete, so lets get to work on the other 12 instead of trying to stomp one of the two into the ground.

Because I assure you, TL1-3 at least, stomp Traders into the ground and we'll then have a spate of nerf Enforcer threads by anyone who didn't roll an Enforcer.

[Notcrattey]

I don't want to remove drains. This is a simple change that would increase the viability of other professions at low levels.

No, other professions are not viable at lower levels because they have a garbage toolset, not because of TRADUR DRAINZ.

[Genie]

If Traders were this OP at TL5, how come there's more Enforcers than Traders?

You really dont know the answer to this question? Its the same as why there are more soldiers at tl5 than there are NTs. They're just passing through to greener pastures.

[bitnykk]

{edited by Anarrina: removed argument}

Doctors pre-GTH (...) NTs

imo some of the primary goals of rebalance were to reduce healing preponderancy (doc, agt, adv, ma in first line) and make NT more oriented to combos than 1-button kill (HL mainly).

[Vgman01]

Lol this is just so wrong. Especially how all the WAH NERF TRADER crowd -constantly- run under the assumption that drains -always- land and Traders are -never- in cooldown. Ever.

If Traders were this OP at TL5, how come there's more Enforcers than Traders?

exactly when did I say traders where op at tl5? I said they where formidible, not gimp wich the person who I was quoting had implied.

[sultryvoltron]

Read: make Traders as crap as everyone else.

No thanks. I'd rather other professions got some boosts. Enforcers can compete, so lets get to work on the other 12 instead of trying to stomp one of the two into the ground.

Because I assure you, TL1-3 at least, stomp Traders into the ground and we'll then have a spate of nerf Enforcer threads by anyone who didn't roll an Enforcer.

So why, at the exact same level, can a Trader drain a person's nanoskills for 3x the amount that an MP can?

Why can Traders, at the exact same level, get triple the AR (any weapon) buffing as Soldiers (any prof)?

Why are those discrepencies ok?

No, other professions are not viable at lower levels because they have a garbage toolset, not because of TRADUR DRAINZ.

It would be far easier to balance those garbage toolsets if said professions, I dunno, actually got to used their toolsets and if the Trader toolset was toned down so that we don't have a MASSIVE power boost at low levels, making PvM bosses a joke.

[Saetos]

Here is where we hit a snag. Traders are an effective counter to every weapon-based profession. Why should you also get to take the MP job and be a counter to nano-based professions? This change would easily boost pet profs at lower levels, would encourage more people to roll nano-based professions, and give an all around better variety in low level PvP.

When you and I can legitimately say that a Trader and a MetaPhysicist will always be at every PVP battle, when the population grows large enough to truly set in motion this "Let's focus on team PVP!" thought process, then I will agree with you. As it stands however, MetaPhysicists are not a very common opponent in many title level ranges, so we need to be able to step in as a substitute for nanoskill debuffing.

[Vgman01]

No, other professions are not viable at lower levels because they have a garbage toolset, not because of TRADUR DRAINZ.

Other profs have a decent enough toolset as it is. And in duels without ob's is where it really shines. The problem starts when traders get ob's to cast very high drain nano's that makes somones wep hit for 25% normal dmg wich cant even begin to hope to out dmg the healing effect brought to the table by hack n quack.

TBH I think its just a coincidence that traders happened to be the class that scales best, as well as how insainly well they scale with ob's at low lvls but something really should be done about it.

[Hacre]

So why, at the exact same level, can a Trader drain a person's nanoskills for 3x the amount that an MP can?

Why can Traders, at the exact same level, get triple the AR (any weapon) buffing as Soldiers (any prof)?

Why are those discrepencies ok?

It would be far easier to balance those garbage toolsets if said professions, I dunno, actually got to used their toolsets and if the Trader toolset was toned down so that we don't have a MASSIVE power boost at low levels, making PvM bosses a joke.

You appear to be unaware of the fact that until Traders start laddering up drains at lower levels, or get their drains cast at all at higher levels, Traders are utter garbage. They live and die by drains, it is the nature of the profession.

Also, by garbage, I really do mean garbage. OE weapons, terrible nanos apart from drains, etc. Before you suggest equipping a weapon that isn't OE without drains, well that kinda negates the whole point to the profession; weak until drains are up.

This unawareness coming from someone such as yourself, surprises me greatly.

Other profs have a decent enough toolset as it is. And in duels without ob's is where it really shines. The problem starts when traders get ob's to cast very high drain nano's that makes somones wep hit for 25% normal dmg wich cant even begin to hope to out dmg the healing effect brought to the table by hack n quack.

TBH I think its just a coincidence that traders happened to be the class that scales best, as well as how insainly well they scale with ob's at low lvls but something really should be done about it.

Erm, even with only the composite nanoskill buffing, or no nanoskill buffing at all, Traders can quickly drain an opponent effectively enough.

Don't confuse most people taking the easy route and having OBs as that meaning the Trader toolset is worthless without them. Other profession's tools really are that garbage, aside mainly from Enforcers, at the levels being discussed here.

[Zadamm]

When you and I can legitimately say that a Trader and a MetaPhysicist will always be at every PVP battle, when the population grows large enough to truly set in motion this "Let's focus on team PVP!" thought process, then I will agree with you. As it stands however, MetaPhysicists are not a very common opponent in many title level ranges, so we need to be able to step in as a substitute for nanoskill debuffing.

You are right that MPs are not a very common opponent. With the suggested change this however could change, and we would see more MPs. Only thing which might happen is that people would start to cry that evade MPs are too powerful.

[bitnykk]

until Traders start laddering up drains (... they ...) are utter garbage

now you're trying to convince us that traders won't come pre-drained at war ? or that they don't take time to drain the mobs in PVM ? or their opponent in duel/BS ? one more exageration like that post (not motivated to search & quote) where you said all professions had crappy toolset @ low level except traders, suggesting they were the only wisely designed ...

well, that's truly all the contrary : they're the only ones not balanced @ low titles (PVP), and that's why they are making other professions crappy (in PVP), e.g. making NR twinks avoid not more than 1/2 debuffs before rendered useless and finally killing (PVP) diversity in tl1/2/3 (and low 4 even).

oppositely, in PVM/Twink i'm to let traders unlimited like they are now, while i can tell you even not loading the max possible, my 40ish trader can deal totally decent (& over that) DD, use his wide toolset (buff mates, mezz & root + nano/hp/ac drains, etc ...) even without mochies nor any OSB.

some proposed solutions, mine is to lock drains according to target title in PVP only (PVM/Twink & OSB stays the same than now) ; now please propose something instead of mistrying to convince yourself traders need no balancing, because exagerations never help in any debate.

[Hacre]

Lol how the hell do you "pre drain" an opponent in a duel?

You're grasping at straws mate.

[sultryvoltron]

When you and I can legitimately say that a Trader and a MetaPhysicist will always be at every PVP battle, when the population grows large enough to truly set in motion this "Let's focus on team PVP!" thought process, then I will agree with you. As it stands however, MetaPhysicists are not a very common opponent in many title level ranges, so we need to be able to step in as a substitute for nanoskill debuffing.

What? How does that even begin to... whatever, I give up.

You appear to be unaware of the fact that until Traders start laddering up drains at lower levels, or get their drains cast at all at higher levels, Traders are utter garbage. They live and die by drains, it is the nature of the profession.

Also, by garbage, I really do mean garbage. OE weapons, terrible nanos apart from drains, etc. Before you suggest equipping a weapon that isn't OE without drains, well that kinda negates the whole point to the profession; weak until drains are up.

This unawareness coming from someone such as yourself, surprises me greatly.

Obviously, if nanoskill draining were removed from Traders, the amount of weapon skill draining should be increased. Traders could, in effect, get higher buffing of their weapon skills. Such a drastic change would obvious come with a significant rework of how Trader drains worked on weapon skills.

It actually seems like you think this would be a fair idea, given:

Erm, even with only the composite nanoskill buffing, or no nanoskill buffing at all, Traders can quickly drain an opponent effectively enough.

Or maybe I'm misunderstanding what you mean by that?

[Saetos]

where you said all professions had crappy toolset @ low level except traders, suggesting they were the only wisely designed ...

Oh yes they do.

1) Shades have no alpha barring 4 perks, Sneak Attack and Fast Attack.

2) Engineers have no spec blockers, must rely on pets for damage.

3) Fixer evades are only worthwhile with GA armor, at which point they're ridiculously huge. Any other armor and they might as well die.

4) MetaPhysicist nanoskill debuffing nanos can be useful, but they only really stop NanoTechnicians. Everyone else builds themselves on equipping powerful weapons to take down opponents directly. Also, MetaPhysicist weapons BLOW MAJOR CHUNKS - the only effective weapon is the Solar Guard and maaaybe the Skylight Shield, as any other weapon leaves their absorbless, heal-less avatar open to any alpha under the sun.

5) Bureaucrat is either the second-worst (first being Shades) or worst with this. Charms are completely useless. Their nukes require PM/MC, their bots require MC/TS, their roots require PM/TS, their snares require TS/SI, their auras require PM/SI/TS, their best weapons are Pistol... you see the problem? Absolutely ****in' chaotic implant clashings happen everywhere, and specializing in one or two areas means killing yourself everywhere. On top of needing to increase ALL of this, to avoid an alpha (because they have no stuns) they need to keep their defense rating up, which is a chunk of IP they don't have. They're an overly complex profession with no true direction at low levels, which makes them horrendous pre-TL4.

6) Adventurers have Cocoon (sorta) and heals. And nothing. Literally nothing. Pre-Chirop and pre-JEPP, their weapons are horrible. They don't morph into anything worth mention unless they set up themselves for nanoskills at 49 to cast Sabretooth. Their evades do not amount to anything at low levels.

7) Agents are one-trick ponies - constant rooting and shooting is all they're really known for. Sure that's kind of how they're built, but at TL7 they have the opportunity to use a very wide array of nanos to suit their playstyle, and several hard-hitting damage perks to knock down an opponent akin to a ranged Shade. They get none of that here, as FP butchers their nanoinit so severely that any offensive nano casting will get them killed.

8) And don't get me started on Keepers. Their auras have no effect on the battle barring Ward. They're way too vulnerable to CC tools. Their heals amount to nothing in the face of very strong weapons.

9) Martial Artists are ... well, they're okay. Set them up for damage and they can go to town with some very nice crits, but trying to set them up for evades before TL3 is a death sentence, as going full defense will kill their damage, and without Limber for a boost to their evades or Predator for a great static boost, they go nowhere. Atrox MAs could use Wit of the Atrox, but that's about to be lost.

NanoTechnicians, Doctors, Enforcers (ESPECIALLY), Soldiers and Traders do their TL7 jobs well at TL2. The others are hampered by level locks and unupdated toolsets in the face of new twinking possibilities, new weapons, and very smart opponents.

[bitnykk]

yes of course not all professions are shiny & great in low titles ... but negating everything is making you forget few decent stuff :
- Tiig, SoM decent melee stuff for tl2/3 (shade, enf, keep in first rank)
- perennium weaps for ranged professions (fix, agt, sold in first rank)
- some RK rare stuff totally decent (e.g. : RLGL for tl1/2 engi)
- ofab's !
etc ...

now let's consider :
- Notum Repulsor perks sacrified just because of trader overhelming
- all healing/debuffing/pet professions useless mostly because of trader drains
- all profession render OE on any decent weapons just because of trader drains

see, no matter what toolset/armor/weapon you could twink : this trader overhelming leads to agent smith fighting agent smith in matrix ... i mean everybody rolls a trader because we all know this unlimitation in PVP makes trader utterly OPed & only worthy.

no need to hit FC with such spit on every profession until this (drain line limitation) is done among other things (like Notum Repulsor nerf) during the rebalance. i strongly hope they fix (while letting agent/traders with no limitation in PVM/Twink cause that's part of fun in AO).

[Saetos]

yes of course not all professions are shiny & great in low titles ... but negating everything is making you forget few decent stuff :
- Tiig, SoM decent melee stuff for tl2/3 (shade, enf, keep in first rank)

I'm sorry, what? I had a level 49 Shade (who's now 208). She used those daggers. You know how well 45-125(50) translates over to PVP against 2-3k HP opponents? The minimum and criticals suck so hard.

- perennium weaps for ranged professions (fix, agt, sold in first rank)

The toolset of a profession should not, barring maybe Soldiers, revolve solely around their weapon.

I may make an exception for Fixers, because if you're set up right you can make your HOTs work well.
Agents, though? They have a rifle, Kizzers, and roots. That's it. That's all they are at TL2. Their toolset entirely revolves a frakkin' dildo at TL2. The main selling point for the profession - being able to become another profession - does not come into play because the nano init debuff is extreme.

- some RK rare stuff totally decent (e.g. : RLGL for tl1/2 engi)

I'll say it again. The toolset of a profession should not revolve solely around their weapon. An Engineer should not have to equip a certain weapon to win their battles. They should be able to use a combination of their nanos, their bots, and their weapon(s) to win.

now let's consider :
- Notum Repulsor perks sacrified just because of trader overhelming
- all healing/debuffing professions useless mostly because of trader drains
- all profession render OE on any decent weapons just because of trader drains

see, no matter what toolset/armor/weapon you could twink : this trader overhelming leads to agent smith fighting agent smith in matrix ... i mean everybody rolls a trader because we all know this unlimitation in PVP makes trader utterly OPed & only worthy.

I'm not going to argue that the way Trader drains are presented at lower title levels are too much; I'll agree. However, Traders are not invincible monoliths, especially in BS.

[Hacre]

What? How does that even begin to... whatever, I give up.

Obviously, if nanoskill draining were removed from Traders, the amount of weapon skill draining should be increased. Traders could, in effect, get higher buffing of their weapon skills. Such a drastic change would obvious come with a significant rework of how Trader drains worked on weapon skills.

It actually seems like you think this would be a fair idea, given:



Or maybe I'm misunderstanding what you mean by that?

You gave me an idea. How about, a crippling nanoskill debuff/drain, OR a crippling weaponskill debuff/drain, that don't stack? Or, separate the drains like so:

Divest Weapon
Divest Nano
These do not stack with one and other;
Plunder Weapon
Plunder Nano
These do not stack with one and other but do stack with either of the divest line.

So you could, Divest Weapon, Plunder nano, Divest Nano, Plunder Weapon, Divest Nano, Plunder Nano, or Divest Weapon, Plunder Weapon, but not Divest Weapon+Divest Nano+Plunder Nano+Plunder Weapon...

So you can go balls out and hit the weapon skills REALLY hard, or the nano skills REALLY hard, or balance between the two but not get the double drain effect as you do now?

I'm not sure how the skill transfer should hit the Trader...given what I know about Traders I'd argue that each nano regardless should given an nano+weaponskill transfer but maybe give a bias depend on what was cast, so Divest/Plunder Weapon would give nano, but more weapon skill and vice versa.

Would that please the whiney masses?

[Saetos]

That could actually work.

[sultryvoltron]

You gave me an idea. How about, a crippling nanoskill debuff/drain, OR a crippling weaponskill debuff/drain, that don't stack? Or, separate the drains like so:

Divest Weapon
Divest Nano
These do not stack with one and other;
Plunder Weapon
Plunder Nano
These do not stack with one and other but do stack with either of the divest line.

So you could, Divest Weapon, Plunder nano, Divest Nano, Plunder Weapon, Divest Nano, Plunder Nano, or Divest Weapon, Plunder Weapon, but not Divest Weapon+Divest Nano+Plunder Nano+Plunder Weapon...

So you can go balls out and hit the weapon skills REALLY hard, or the nano skills REALLY hard, or balance between the two but not get the double drain effect as you do now?

I'm not sure how the skill transfer should hit the Trader...given what I know about Traders I'd argue that each nano regardless should given an nano+weaponskill transfer but maybe give a bias depend on what was cast, so Divest/Plunder Weapon would give nano, but more weapon skill and vice versa.

Would that please the whiney masses?

Are we talking "press one button, press q, /disco" kind of crippling? If so, I would say the second suggestion you gave is much better.

As long as the amount that is debuffed is the same as current, the split lines would be ok. Also, I would personally say no to weaponskill and nanoskill positive effects on the Trader. Like you said in your previous post, with just the level locked composite, or even single Mochies, a Trader can drain adequately enough. I know, laddering drains is fun and powerful, but it is completely unnecessary and really over the top powerful. Let it give one, or the other so that Traders can use a level of nanos that is slightly comparable to what other profs can do.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

You gave me an idea. How about, a crippling nanoskill debuff/drain, OR a crippling weaponskill debuff/drain, that don't stack? Or, separate the drains like so:

Divest Weapon
Divest Nano
These do not stack with one and other;
Plunder Weapon
Plunder Nano
These do not stack with one and other but do stack with either of the divest line.

So you could, Divest Weapon, Plunder nano, Divest Nano, Plunder Weapon, Divest Nano, Plunder Nano, or Divest Weapon, Plunder Weapon, but not Divest Weapon+Divest Nano+Plunder Nano+Plunder Weapon...

So you can go balls out and hit the weapon skills REALLY hard, or the nano skills REALLY hard, or balance between the two but not get the double drain effect as you do now?

I'm not sure how the skill transfer should hit the Trader...given what I know about Traders I'd argue that each nano regardless should given an nano+weaponskill transfer but maybe give a bias depend on what was cast, so Divest/Plunder Weapon would give nano, but more weapon skill and vice versa.

Would that please the whiney masses?

I like this.