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Thread: Low Level Trader(s) Drains

  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by eroz_c View Post
    You mean TL2.
    i don't think a TL2 can do that. but i'm 100% TL3 can. imo the threshold to reach the req is around 40/45 if i'm correct, wich is totally unbalanced and explain why most people don't roll anything but traders until 60+.
    Bitnykk/Bittorrent - young RL of AP & old emissary of CODE

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by bitnykk View Post
    i don't think a TL2 can do that. but i'm 100% TL3 can. imo the threshold to reach the req is around 40/45 if i'm correct, wich is totally unbalanced and explain why most people don't roll anything but traders until 60+.
    On RK1 is more enfs and agents even few soldiers at 30-60 and only 2-3 good traders and they arent active, last time new MPs.
    60+ there is really lot of traders, because they can cast easy nanites.
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  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by eroz_c View Post
    You mean TL2.
    Nope.
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  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by AGPEcko View Post
    I've done more than my fair share of testing NR vs. trader drains. Particularly at tl1/2 where it most matters to me. Again, it doesn't work. Not even with NR buffs, your simply never on the verge of countering more than 1 drain in a row. Virtually no matter what. My 27 enf, with about 450 NR, has to-date, not countered more than 1 drain in a row, as said before. And doesn't even frequently counter roots. See below.
    That 27 enfo.

    and it was not that i was butt-hurt i just have this thing that takes up most of my week called a job it is where i go to get some cash to pay for this game. 6am-5pm doesnt leave much time for ao let alone forum scrolling.

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by AGPEcko View Post
    I've done more than my fair share of testing NR vs. trader drains. Particularly at tl1/2 where it most matters to me. Again, it doesn't work. Not even with NR buffs, your simply never on the verge of countering more than 1 drain in a row. Virtually no matter what. My 27 enf, with about 450 NR, has to-date, not countered more than 1 drain in a row, as said before. And doesn't even frequently counter roots. See below.
    I'm going to guess you did those tests at full agg.

    Plus at later TL2 an enf can get enough NR to prevent draining.


    Not saying trader's aren't powerful tho.
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  6. #66
    Yeah OSbed a high tl2 enfo could most likely use the third rage and have well over the ammount of NR needed to resist trader drains. @ lower levels drains just seem more powerfull because most professions have not even begun to use there toolset.

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by bitnykk View Post
    i don't think a TL2 can do that. but i'm 100% TL3 can. imo the threshold to reach the req is around 40/45 if i'm correct, wich is totally unbalanced and explain why most people don't roll anything but traders until 60+.
    Org mate's 46 NM trader is casting nanites with mochies. If a TL2 doc could (OSB'd, but still) CH and get 100% benefit from it (requires 10k+ HP so not happening), the case would be similar. Enfos happen to be another profession that get a lot of their power from nanos without level locks (rage in the forefront) as opposed to perks or something else.

    It occurred to me as well - trader nanos that are level locked are mostly root remover, AC debuff, and SL buffs that are mediocre (excepting TL7 calm) or worse. The entire key toolset (drains, hagglers, CL buffs too) are not level locked. Traders also have the means to acquire super high nano skills. Enforcers have their defining nanos (except weapon buffs) - mongo, rage, challenger - that are not locked at all. As a contrary to that, for example pet professions have their pets non level locked, but other parts of the toolset - specifically those that enable keeping control of the pet versus anyone - are either level locked and even then it's difficult to actually use pets in an effective, threatening way.

    So, looking at the following three bullets, I think the first two can quite easily be agreed on at least:

    1) Trader toolset cripples the enemy, this is fine, but
    2) Their toolset is available way early due to high nanoskill availability and chance for a lot of NCU plus no level locks
    2b) This allows very high QL weapons when compared to other caster classes at least
    3) The situation becomes uncompetitive when attainable toolset levels are hugely apart.

    As for 1), the situation would be different if you had level 46 MAs casting UVC - it wouldn't be such a dramatic buff. A level 46 engie with a slayer would probably be a threat to a non-crowd control profession if one could be made to stand still. One would still instantly squish because there would be little NCU left to get behe/hot/omni-med/gsf on top of mochies, something that the traders fare better at due to high CL (I'm not saying they can get all that necessarily in addition to nanite buffing parts).

    So can anything be done? Obviously the trader toolset is designed to cripple. You can't change buffing parts of the toolset either since existing twinks would be superior to anything made since. You can't give every other profession skill drains either. Chances therefore seem to be reducing the amount of crippling caused, and possibly reducing the effectivinesss of OSB by putting at least some sorts of level locks on the surviving toolset like Omni-Med, GSF, HnQ and possibly PNH. Though it'll just mean that more buffs of lower QL will fit and the situation will be relatively speaking quite the same.
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  8. #68
    May the Sploitz be with u Ciex's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Bighealz View Post
    Yeah OSbed a high tl2 enfo could most likely use the third rage and have well over the ammount of NR needed to resist trader drains.
    There is no such a thing like having "well over the amount of NR needed to resist" anything. On my tl5 enf with rage, rage proc and few nr swaps i used to have well over 2k nr and still saw both drains landing. On my nt once with a friend we have done some tests, he was nr4 or nr5 perked (im not sure whats the max for tl5) and i still did land nukes on him even without nr debuffs. It was only 1 out of 4-5 but still enough to kill him while his lower ar from inability to use buffs made him unable to kill me.

    NR isnt working like other evades where you can at last count on evading hits most often if its high enough. It works in a bit different way.
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  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by eroz_c View Post
    Org mate's 46 NM trader is casting nanites with mochies
    with SL, it's doable @ 42 imo. as froob it goes diectly to TL3.

    also i agree most of your analysis, just i'm not to nerf the OSB (some proposed to lock mochies or so) because that would kill a lot of the fun for other people in PVM.
    i also don't want to nerf traders (and fp agents) twink/ncu/PVM interest at all.
    i don't know exactly if enfos nor pets need capnerf but i think not.

    the only thing i claim for PVP balance is a trader-target debuff CAP in the surroundings i proposed earlier (page 3 of this post). i don't know howto exactly (level/title req, or percentage applied target side or other way) but in the rebalance that would be cool from FC to review that.
    Bitnykk/Bittorrent - young RL of AP & old emissary of CODE

  10. #70
    A good way to make drains less of an IWIN button at lower levels would be to scale divest/plunder debuff part depending on target's level.

    IE Nanite Divest removes 250 skills & 150 AAO from the target atm.
    - Don't touch if target is 175+.
    - Make it -200 skills/-120 AAO if target is 151-174
    - Make it -150 skills/-90 AAO if target is 126-150
    - Make it -100 skills/-60 AAO if target is 101-125
    - Make it -50 skills/-30 AAO if target is 76-100
    - Make it drain nothing if target is <= 75 (trader still gets +210 to all skills)

    (Disclaimer : that kind of scaling is probably very far from what should be done to drains but you get the general idea)

    And I was thinking that it might be a problem that a lower drain might debuff the target a bit more, depending on how scaling is done, but it's perfect !
    FC wants to give traders situationnal nanos. So a lowbie trader might have to choose between "Do I want to cripple the target as much as I can while my gun stays 75% OE" or "Casting nanite drains to make my QL400 gun 100% effective and start pewpew'ing".
    And it's a more interesting choice to make than "Do I want to cancel my rrfe for a short-term 15% reflect buff only to debuff target's reflect for 10 secs"
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  11. #71

    Nerf Laddering of Drains

    Instead of putting locks on drains, let's just nerf predraining. To cast a drain you must be able to cast it with no previous drains running. This is will go a long way in rebalancing tl1 to tl4 pvp.

  12. #72
    as long as you can ladder in PvM.

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by eroz_c View Post
    ..The [Trader's] entire key toolset (drains, hagglers, CL buffs too) are not level locked....
    And thats the way it should remain, no level locks.

  14. #74
    um no, if u can ladder for pvm, then u can twink in a six slot belt easy, and get 300 ncu at tl1.... so no laddering of drains period.

  15. #75
    If you want to stop lowbies from laddering up, add more nanocost (A LOT) or add level locks.

    There's no reason to gimp tl7 traders with this.
    ...and that's the way the cookie crumbles...

  16. #76
    Question:

    How OP would a tl1-2 trader be if MP buffs were self only or team auras?
    ...and that's the way the cookie crumbles...

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by Gwenhwyfer View Post
    Question:

    How OP would a tl1-2 trader be if MP buffs were self only or team auras?
    They'd still be "OP" because it's perfectly reasonable for a TL2 level 40+ Trader to run with Comp Mastery or a <40 Trader to run with CT, it just needs a decent build of toon rather than get PM/TS mochies, slap on gun, drain up to Nanites, pewpew.

    All this moaning about players at levels that aren't even out of double digits is hilarious.

    PS, no I can't cast Nanites at 41 with Comp Mastery, but I don't need to either.
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  18. #78
    I HATE traders (they kill or stalemate(usually this) me 70% of the time on every toon that I play), but I see removing stacking drains and level locking their drains as removing some of the adaptability and complexity of Anarchy Online that makes this an amazing game. Just because they have a toolset that works with itself doesn't mean we have to nerf it. Also, this is a PVM game for the most part, this balancing stuff to pvp is... quite honestly going to ruin it for a lot of people.

  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by Anarchic1 View Post
    Instead of putting locks on drains, let's just nerf predraining. To cast a drain you must be able to cast it with no previous drains running. This is will go a long way in rebalancing tl1 to tl4 pvp.
    I'm going to semi-bump this. I suggest that the stacking order of the freindly buff on the trader is reversed, so that the lowest drain has the highest stacking order and highest non-nanite drain has the lowest.

    That way, a trader can still ladder drains, but in order to do so they will have to cancel the drain portion that is running on the trader before they can get the buff from the drain.

    This would allow traders to still be able to ladder drain to a certain degree, it would work like this:

    Cast ransack, cast higher deprive. Kill ransack, cast higher ransack. Kill deprive, cast higher deprive, and so forth and so on.

  20. #80
    This would help lower levels a bit, but not enough. Two self buffed drains are still incredibly effective from a twink, enough so that there are few profs that can kill a good trader once they are drained.

    This would cause problems with a trader who is nanoskill debuffed. If he cannot recieve the benefit of drains to counter debuffs, then he would be unable to cast at all if they get drained themselves.

    The drains simply take away too much skill period. A single drain at tl7 is -475 AR, 325 of that is skills. With 2000 NR you will resist 1/4 drains from a non-pre drained trader, and my enf resists about 1/2 of them with 3200. This problem is even worse at lower levels where you either can't eat through a traders OSB's, or they land the drains even more easily.


    The idea has too many flaws in that it only deals with some problems but can make traders too weak in certain situations.

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