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Thread: The Range Cap

  1. #1

    The Range Cap

    Across the board the range cap is 40 meters. That means at about 8 times the maximum range of any melee action, a player can use any ranged action to affect a player. Several perks and abilities also have a shorter 5-20ish meter range, which is at a major disadvantage to someone with debuffs, attacking range, nukes, or CC tools that can be used from the capped distance.

    It takes time to go from 40m to 5m distance from an opponent, especially when they choose to keep that distance by moving ahead of you. Now I know its easy to spam Root Grafts, since they don't have a 15minute lockout or anything, but I'm hoping we can find a more reasonable management of the ranged advantage.

    Assuming that it also becomes harder to permanently kite someone, and only stop to spam your 14000 heal or your ranged special, I think the capped ranges for various abilities should be adjusted individually. I'll throw some numbers out and everyone can decide if it sounds good or not enough/too much. Be forewarned I have used or currently have every profession for pvp and pvm purposes except Crats, so if you are full of it in a reply saying "we have to have 40m on all these abilities" I will know.

    Now the list:

    AOE roots, snares, mezzes should cap at 20m.
    AOE effects should be no more than 15m [radius].
    Roots and snares cap at 40m.
    Mezzes cap at 40m (no point in having a mezz if you have to get in agging range).
    Stuns cap at 25m.
    Debuffs cap at 20m.
    Nukes cap at 40m.
    Ranged attacks could vary with weapon type/single or dual wield weps. I'd prefer 40m cap as the range wep advantage.
    Ranged specials vary based on special type, AS at 40m while Full Auto would be 20m as an example.
    Melee attacks 6m. (melee has several ways of increasing range and I don't see the balance in 10-15m melee ranges in the future)
    Taunts cap at 40m.
    Heals and buffs cap at 40m.
    Last edited by Gatester; Mar 20th, 2010 at 20:17:14.

  2. #2
    well slightly related, but I always wondered why the fastest profs were the ones with the most resist/removable of roots/snares, seems like it should be the other way around.
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  3. #3
    Ok here goes.

    I'm all for range, but, I'm also all for diminishing effects.

    Full auto, for example needs a very short range, as you said gate. But, can be executed further, but with significantly reduced effects.... like, for every meter further than 20m, there is a -25% AR reduction in effectiveness.

    Aimed shot needs a execution time directly related to distance from target. AS can have max range, but, needs like a 10s execution time from that distance, 1s execution from 5m, interpolated to 10s execution time at 40m.

    burst, 5m further than FA.



    ORRRRR:

    ALL melee toons need significantly heftier root/snare breaks (except enf, atm) AND, all melee toons need hard snares (unbreakable) attached to ANY melee/physical attack, or, have stuns that accompany any attack. Melee toons need these to not be escaped from.
    Last edited by McKnuckleSamwich; Mar 15th, 2010 at 07:43:54.

  4. #4
    Max range is 40m. Should be capped for all sorts of attacks. Just make every target check range.


    Also, imo for any aoe root or snare or calm the check should increase after 5 ppl or so.
    It's a tad OP when you see a crat fear 50 ppl out of 80 or so with one nano.

    Just my personal opinion, I could be wrong.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by navycut View Post
    Shades: Mmmm although rooting them is lots and lots of fun, I feel for the poor shades
    when I get rooted on BS i usually just /disco, there's not much else I can do

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Gatester View Post
    Be forewarned I have used or currently have every profession for pvp and pvm purposes except Crats, so if you are full of it in a reply saying "we have to have 40m on all these abilities" I will know.
    Man, you need to stop pretending you're the master of every single profession (bar crats apparantly, hurr hurr).

    The range cap is fine, considering the speeds at which profession can close gaps in this game. Your tl2 comment is irrelevant in this respect. Your suggestions would affect tl7 PvP equally, and roots/snares are not a problem there for any melee profession bar shades and keepers who don't choose to become immune to them.

    Again you're trying to nerf something that doesn't need nerfing.

    1. 'chain' rooting isn't due to the range on roots. It's due to the fact that roots were designed for PvM, with long durations and no lockouts. This is being adressed in the balance patch, move on.

    2. At higher tls, no melee profession has issues with snares/roots. MAs, enforcers, advies are virtually unaffected or have plenty of removal tools. Keepers/shades -choose- not to perk SD. If you feel this is because it takes too much out of your toolset, something I don't necessarily disagree with, it means the problem is in your toolset, not in the CC-profession's toolset.

    Your reasoning is flawed, and your style of argumenting is foolish at best. Really, get a new hobby.


    I won't even bother with Knuckle's 'GIEV MAI KIPPUR STUNZ AND SNARES AND HEFTY RUUT BREKKERS' silliness... Seriously, dude, stop making every thread about making your keeper better.
    Last edited by crattey; Mar 15th, 2010 at 19:26:21.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by -Klod- View Post
    Fixed it a little, since it was needed to do so.

    P.S.
    You can use FM, rods, MoR...
    sure I can, but anyone worth their salt will just re-root the second it breaks. Everyone brings these root removes up when the topic of being rooted/snared is brought up, but it's not like these are all magic "I win" buttons like you claim them to be.

    MoR, rods, have much longer recharge than root. FM stims recharge quite quickly, but generally by the time I unroot and start to close the gap I'm re-rooted.

    Tacky Hack is great though ^^

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Pixel8 View Post
    sure I can, but anyone worth their salt will just re-root the second it breaks.
    Plenty of tools there, so feel free to use them. Roots are also getting their duration lowered in the future, so there's no need to bitch about this anymore.
    Renowned jester of the double AS Tigress

    MP in sneak eNSDed me and did about 20k damage in 10-12 seconds

  9. #9
    Tiny Sword

    40/10=8?
    Quote Originally Posted by Gatester View Post
    8 times the maximum range of any melee action
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  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Crat360 View Post
    Tiny Sword

    40/10=8?
    This.
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    Xirayne: I couldn't care less about who is clueless or what the exact definition "real" pvp is in ao, I want "fun" pvp!

  11. #11
    Crattey, I know you are jealous of people that actually play more than 2 profs, but seriously if you ever knew what you were talking about I might actually listen. Shades and Keepers -choose- not to perk SD lol, well I guess you are right. Crats and fixers -choose- not to perk NR8 so they can kill NTs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Esqi View Post
    Glad you ain't a dev

    It more than often comes across in your posts that your attempting to change the game completely, based upon your ideals and perception.

    Ranged toon's are inherently slower than the melee equivalents, have to stop to shoot unlike melee where hits still take place while running.

    Ranged vs melee, 40meters is common ground.. i know when chasing a enf, the moment i stop to unleash a FA, the enf has already exceeded max range and i gotta start running again, chasing a person with near double my RS..
    Let us try to think beyond tl7 for once. I know most my ideas of how AO should be are rather radical for this game, but whether I am correct or not is based more on fairness than sticking with archaic ways of doing things. If I am wrong, I am wrong but keep in mind there are a lot of problems in AO that will indeed take drastic changes to correct.

    This is not just about roots and snares, this is about all ranged abilities hitting 40m while half of the game requires melee distance. There is a major issue when a player has several seconds at which he is free to GTH, BR, RI, Drain, Debuff, Mezz, Root, Snare, Alpha w/e a player before they are even able to get involved in the combat. Once a player is debuffed, often times the fight is almost over. That is why duels see a much bigger difference than in real time pvp, where traders don't start 3m from that MA or doctor, but they are starting 40m away and are easily crippling the other player before the other side can even hit Q.


    It would not break tl7 pvp if someone had to be 20m away before they started using the bulk of their toolset on a player rather than 40m away. It would greatly help lower levels where there is no 2500 runspeed to narrow that gap, but 500. It would make it harder for people that think Kiting 99% of the time at as much distance as possible is great pvp. I'm suprised you would even be against something that could help soldiers, not just help a little but GREATLY help them, when profs actually have to get in range of your prof before the 1-button wins.


    40meters+stops to use toolset != 5m+stops to fix sync and use toolset. You can use your perks while running just like melee, melee has to stop to cast just like ranged, and melee profs have to stop several times while chasing someone due to sync issues, so what is this 35m equivalence you are talking about? Regular hits, fast attack, brawl and SA? I'll trade them for Burst, Full auto, and AS if all I had to do was stop to use them.

  12. #12
    Even though there are other tl's (2/3/4/5) these are infact interim title levels, in the pursuit of Tl7 - End game, where the majority of people end up.

    Thats why your argument about justifying it's merit solely based upon lower tl's in nullified.

    Also, Synch issues are more so a result of varying geographic locations, lag, server SYNC issues, Game engine issues etc.

    Not cause Ranged is 40m.
    Posted by Seventh: Has something to do with the fact that RL speaking im 172 sm high and weight 96 kg, all of which come in muscle form (and guessing your reaction about forum pvp, yes i can log into webcam )

    Said the pixels lol..

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Esqi View Post
    Even though there are other tl's (2/3/4/5) these are infact interim title levels, in the pursuit of Tl7 - End game, where the majority of people end up.

    Thats why your argument about justifying it's merit solely based upon lower tl's in nullified.
    Unfortunately this is a major issue. I think lower title levels are just as important as title level 7. Others think the game should be balanced based solely on title level 7 and that lower levels can recieve minor adjustments afterward. It is not nullified, it means my justificiation conflicts with some peoples perception of importance.

    Would you be willing to consider a title level locked cap on ranges instead? TL7 could remain entirely unaltered and the lower level issues could be pretty much dealt with. Even though it doesn't do everything I would want, there is a point where the middle ground is generally the best option.

    Quote Originally Posted by Esqi View Post
    Also, Synch issues are more so a result of varying geographic locations, lag, server SYNC issues, Game engine issues etc.

    Not cause Ranged is 40m.
    It has a lot to do with ranged arguments that melee is not at a disadvantage though. Just because it has nothing to do with game mechanics does not mean it should not be included.

  14. #14
    You do realise that synch issues have been pretty much made worse by the great increase in RS the past few years?

    The very RS skill, you directly benefit from?

    Synch issues were no were near as bad from memory as it has been in recent years, around AI launch it was still pretty good, LE made it alot worse.

    What would a ranged advantage be to you? It's hard enough maintaining range on a target with really pathetic RS, so how do propose to maintain a ranged advantage.

    When it takes you 3 seconds to run 20meters, it takes 3seconds for the proposed change to AS to fire on a melee target, you will prolly get to the ranged opponent quicker than they can get range on you and execute thier AS special?

    FA? - Ranged opponent must stop to fire, no where near as bad as AS, but still must maintain range to prevent the beat down.

    Lower title levels are important, just not as important as end game, reminding yourself it's a filler title level, that you come across in your journey from A to Z.

    Lower title levels should be balanced within that range yea, totally agree.. but changing fundamental game mechanics because a said prof does not perform as good as its tl7 counterpart at the same objective is little justification on performing a drastic change like mentioned.

    Choosing to not train the resist choices in trade for increased dmg/dmg mitigation is a trade off that impacts your decision.
    Last edited by Esqi; Mar 16th, 2010 at 02:26:17.
    Posted by Seventh: Has something to do with the fact that RL speaking im 172 sm high and weight 96 kg, all of which come in muscle form (and guessing your reaction about forum pvp, yes i can log into webcam )

    Said the pixels lol..

  15. #15
    Well long duration roots are a prob for you, which are gettibg looked at.
    Posted by Seventh: Has something to do with the fact that RL speaking im 172 sm high and weight 96 kg, all of which come in muscle form (and guessing your reaction about forum pvp, yes i can log into webcam )

    Said the pixels lol..

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by crattey View Post
    Man, you need to stop pretending you're the master of every single profession (bar crats apparantly, hurr hurr).

    The range cap is fine, considering the speeds at which profession can close gaps in this game. Your tl2 comment is irrelevant in this respect. Your suggestions would affect tl7 PvP equally, and roots/snares are not a problem there for any melee profession bar shades and keepers who don't choose to become immune to them.

    Again you're trying to nerf something that doesn't need nerfing.

    1. 'chain' rooting isn't due to the range on roots. It's due to the fact that roots were designed for PvM, with long durations and no lockouts. This is being adressed in the balance patch, move on.

    2. At higher tls, no melee profession has issues with snares/roots. MAs, enforcers, advies are virtually unaffected or have plenty of removal tools. Keepers/shades -choose- not to perk SD. If you feel this is because it takes too much out of your toolset, something I don't necessarily disagree with, it means the problem is in your toolset, not in the CC-profession's toolset.

    Your reasoning is flawed, and your style of argumenting is foolish at best. Really, get a new hobby.


    I won't even bother with Knuckle's 'GIEV MAI KIPPUR STUNZ AND SNARES AND HEFTY RUUT BREKKERS' silliness... Seriously, dude, stop making every thread about making your keeper better.
    This...
    Quote Originally Posted by Esqi View Post
    Glad you ain't a dev

    It more than often comes across in your posts that your attempting to change the game completely, based upon your ideals and perception.

    Ranged toon's are inherently slower than the melee equivalents, have to stop to shoot unlike melee where hits still take place while running.

    Ranged vs melee, 40meters is common ground.. i know when chasing a enf, the moment i stop to unleash a FA, the enf has already exceeded max range and i gotta start running again, chasing a person with near double my RS..
    ...and this.

    Duration is being looked at, and honestly, do you (OP) really think that TL7 should suffer because of a few interim TLs? If so, you're seriously deluded.
    Avari 220/30/80 - Araghos 220/30/80 - Shishido 220/30/7x - Araninn 220/30/80

    Quote Originally Posted by Tergx
    If one of the few traders are PvPing around you and land GTH on you, take a trip to decon and it will be gone. What's the big deal hehe.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Avari View Post
    Duration is being looked at, and honestly, do you (OP) really think that TL7 should suffer because of a few interim TLs? If so, you're seriously deluded.
    This is not about ***Roots and Snares*** this is about all abilities having a 40m range. You aren't even trying to think, you are spouting out retorts that you are comfortable with because others will agree with you.

    TL7 would NOT be broken just because you have to be closer to people to debuff them, rather than unloading your entire toolset into them at maximum viewing distance then taking off. If you cannot place an actual argument for how TL7 would be broken because debuffs get a 20m cap instead of 40m cap, then you are posting nothing but empty comments.

    Quote Originally Posted by crattey View Post
    Even if I tried to, I couldn't make you look anymore foolish than you manage to do for yourself.
    Oh I see what you are saying, keepers and shades should have 50 SL perks rather than 40. Or should they have rage nanos which you definately wouldn't complain about?

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by navycut View Post
    Without perks in SD and not having access to tacky hack (still just another perk) as a MA you will be chain rooted and kept there as long as the rooter wants.

    So, I would say MAs definitely need those perks to survive. Enfs have rage so they don't need perks, advs well I dunno.
    I definately have issues with chain rooting on my MA when Im not perked into at least SD4, and UWOS stopping at 35m can be trouble in some situations After someone finishes debuffing me I have to run away, and then people start QQing that I didn't stand to fight them after they are ready to actually fight.

    Enfs have no problem with the distance, they will run away, or they will resist the debuff/CC tool and be on top of you if you didn't cripple them with a single nano. At lower levels enfs are the only close range profession with any sort of advantage and that ofc makes them OP. Advy are the same at tl7, where they either get debuffed and run away, or they get right up to you and there is nothing you can do about it.

    The issue is every other prof honestly, since enfs or advy dieing is more a choice between running away or not. It wouldn't be so bad if it wasn't so damn easy.


    40m is a very very large distance. I am even able to chain STUN enforcers on my 75 MP, and maintain a 40m distance with them, because when the stun ends I will be able to use it again by the time they actually get next to me. Unless I get alphad (3200 max health selfed, it hasn't happened yet), and if I'm running with GSF and wolf, its quite laughable that I can have my way with the prof that should have the best advantage against me.



    So, again, why does a trader need 40meter range on -475 AR, -325 skill drains? Why does an MP need 40meter range on a -2000/-3000 nanoskill debuff? Why does a doctor need 40meter range on UBT? Why does a soldier need 40m range on burst and full auto? Some of these I could be wrong, but if players can duel and use these tools without a capped range advantage and still win, then why is it so necessary now?

    So far Esqi is the only one willing to put forth anything, and that is that moving while attacking vs stationary ranged is the tradeoff. I disagree but he at least gave a reason that can make sense.
    Last edited by Gatester; Mar 20th, 2010 at 20:03:27.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by navycut View Post
    I see no way I'm contradicting myself.
    read this quote, then read the next
    Quote Originally Posted by navycut View Post
    the only melee toon that has troubles with roots are shades iirc
    Quote Originally Posted by navycut View Post
    Without perks in SD and not having access to tacky hack (still just another perk) as a MA you will be chain rooted and kept there as long as the rooter wants.
    therefore, MA, keeper and shade have trouble with roots, not JUST shade.

    Complicating the issue is that MA's do have perks for SD (though not before TL7), but shade/keeper don't have perks for SD at TL7 OR below TL7.

    Thus, keeper/shade/MA could use some more anti root/snare tools.

  20. #20
    The point is, is that you provide two different conclusions to the same question.

    That is contradictory.


    Back on topic, melee are screwed, ranged is OP'd. 40m range is WAY too much.

    Some specials should have a far shorter max range unless diminishing returns are introduced if the special is used outside the zone of 100% efficacy.

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