low HP in pvp

[zorn72]

It seems to me that pvp will always be a hot topic with many ideas and many complaints. But for me that plays for fun and love pvp but only fair pvp where its even and close(easy kills in 4 secs with an alpha isnt very funny). In my idea what pvp needs are not to remove the cap but actually decrease damage made with perks and specials.
What pvp need is a damage cap of for example 10% or so, so that u really need to PLAY your proffesion even in pvp. Doing it alone with no other changes would probably not help as it would need other changes too but that is my idea of a rebalance. Changing in templates and making changes that might affect pvm can be painfull in raiding and soloing and has to be tested and tested and tested yet again to make sure we dont get Enfo´s that cant tank in raids lmao or docs that run out of nano pool after one heal lmao.

[X-Styx-X]

people go low hp for AS and AS alone.

AS is being changed. and Low hp isn't a problem since it adds more then enough weak spots.

[Vgman01]

low hp setups shouldnt be viable. But untill the hp gap betwean an NM nt and a trox enf is bridged a bit, untill player damage (and mob hp) get a hefty and well deserved nerf, untill damage from attacks like AS,FA,SA is brought under controll and is made reasonable, and untill hp damage caps are removed, low hp setups will remain viable.

[Darkirbiska1]

I wouldn't say it's a problem. It's not as if they're invunerable, grab a friend with AS or 2 and they go down easily.

Dont forget 3x blocker,refreshed every time when you zone, you know who is so OBs MP+when he can outrun your agent fp enf?

[Obtena]

low hp setups shouldnt be viable.

Yeah? Why not? I want to dispell this idea that low HP setups shouldn't be 'allowed' for some strange reason. That's nonsense. If it's an option to people and they want to take it, why shouldn't they be able to?

[Vgman01]

Yeah? Why not? I want to dispell this idea that low HP setups shouldn't be 'allowed' for some strange reason. That's nonsense. If it's an option to people and they want to take it, why shouldn't they be able to?

For the same reason low hp setups arn't viable in pve. The less hp you have the less survivability you should have. Having lower hp shouldnt increase your survivability. Like I said in my post, Low hp setups are only viable because pvp damage has a hardcap to prevent stuff like AS SA and FA one shotting people. The only way we can get pvp working the way it should work is if we fix damage scaling and give large nerfs to the actual dmg that people deal. Then we can remove the hardcaps and more hp will mean more survivability (like it should in the first place).

[Notcrattey]

Yeah? Why not? I want to dispell this idea that low HP setups shouldn't be 'allowed' for some strange reason. That's nonsense. If it's an option to people and they want to take it, why shouldn't they be able to?

No one said people shouldn't be allowed to have low HP, what people have been saying is that low HP should hold no advantage over high HP because it's backwards logic.

[Obtena]

For the same reason low hp setups arn't viable in pve.

The same reason? Ok Nice, and that reason is what? It's rather irrelevant anyways because PVP isn't PVE. Saying low HP shouldn't be viable because high HP is preferrred for PVM is nonsense. The issue of how I set up my character for PVM is separate from how I setup for PVP and that distinction is not a bad thing.

Sure, logically, from the time we all begin gaming, we are all used to that formula of HIGH HP = GOOD, but it's not some rule set in stone, nor should there efforts being made to trying to make it a rule that needs to be arbitrarily enforced just so it caters to people's sensibility of how the game SHOULD work.

[Obtena]

No one said people shouldn't be allowed to have low HP, what people have been saying is that low HP should hold no advantage over high HP because it's backwards logic.

The only point of argument anyone can make for 'fixing' the low HP advantage is the IP a person saves from not raising Body Dev but of course, that comes with some of it's own disadvantages as well, so it's not a win-win. Otherwise, it's just as much a choice to IP Body Dev as it is to use AS in PVP.

Seriously guys, listen to yourselves ... 'fix' low HP because it's an advantage to people in PVP? Maybe we should 'fix' alot of other things to. Why not 'fix' FA for soldiers because soldiers have the best advantage from using it? No wait, obviously we need to 'fix' trader drains too, because it's an advantage that only they have and that seems kinda unfair as well ... I don't think alot of you realize the implications that kind of thinking has for the game and without being too presumptuous as well, I doubt from what I have seen that FC agrees with you. The game is made to allow players this freedom to setup as they see fit. Why would they all the sudden decide that this freedom should be removed for HP?

[Notcrattey]

Yeah, but that's irrelevant because PVP isn't PVE. Sure, logically, we are all used to that formula of HIGH HP = GOOD, but it's not some rule set in stone, nor should there efforts being made to trying to make it a rule.

So you want to live in some fantasy world then? Low HP should be a result in a sacrifice to excel somewhere else, not the bonus itself.

BTW, there are instances where low HP is viable in PVE, so I wouldn't be so presumptuous.

Only instance being dragging TL2s to inf and pande.

[Notcrattey]

On the flip side, I could also say that high HP shouldn't hold an advantage over low HP either. There's no reason to push people to make their PVP setups one way or the other, just because it abuses people's sensibilities about how things SHOULD be.

I'm all for diversity, but this is just stupid.

[Obtena]

I'm all for diversity, but this is just stupid.

Well, that's fine and I respect that you don't see the difference, but FC isn't going to selectively nerf players ability to decide how they spend IP on Body Dev when it's their intention to allow players to make that choice themselves, just like any other statistic you raise on your character for PVP. It's especially hard to make a case for it when low HP players die in PVP just as much as high HP players so really, what's the problem they would be fixing here? Again, the problem isn't some game mechanic, it's just some sense of 'correctness' that people have for MMO's that they think FC should adhere to and when FC doesn't, they immediately conclude it's wrong or gamebreaking. When people bring how PVM works to argue for PVP changes, that's always a poor premise to support their position.

[Vgman01]

Well, that's fine and I respect that you don't see the difference, but FC isn't going to selectively nerf players ability to decide how they spend IP on Body Dev when it's their intention to allow players to make that choice themselves, just like any other statistic you raise on your character for PVP. It's especially hard to make a case for it when low HP players die in PVP just as much as high HP players so really, what's the problem they would be fixing here? Again, the problem isn't some game mechanic, it's just some sense of 'correctness' that people have for MMO's that they think FC should adhere to and when FC doesn't, they immediately conclude it's wrong or gamebreaking. When people bring how PVM works to argue for PVP changes, that's always a poor premise to support their position.

Look dude. No one is saying diversity is bad. But there ARE just some base rules that every mmo should follow. Having a low hp setup giving you an advantage in pvp would be like intentenaly trying to get the lowest AR or defence possible because that somhow gives you an advantage. Its lunacy to try to argue that intentionaly getting the lowest hp possible should give you an advantage. I aggree for some profs currently thats the most viable option, but that should be fixed. You shouldnt be purposfully giving yourself LESS hp because it boosts your survivability. Like i said, nerf player dmg, nerf non boss hp, and then remove dmg caps in pvp.

[Xercia]

Look dude. No one is saying diversity is bad. But there ARE just some base rules that every mmo should follow. Having a low hp setup giving you an advantage in pvp would be like intentenaly trying to get the lowest AR or defence possible because that somhow gives you an advantage. Its lunacy to try to argue that intentionaly getting the lowest hp possible should give you an advantage. I aggree for some profs currently thats the most viable option, but that should be fixed. You shouldnt be purposfully giving yourself LESS hp because it boosts your survivability. Like i said, nerf player dmg, nerf non boss hp, and then remove dmg caps in pvp.

I have to say that one of the biggest problems that any long term MMO faces is damage inflation. It is as rampant as economy inflation. As a game progesses damage ramps up to create new benchmarks and make people continue to get that warm and fuzzy feeling.

Imagine how the first player to cap full auto at 15k felt? But when everyone is doing it it's not that fabulous.

So they keep upping the damage we can deal by giving us new and shinier toys. To counter this they ramp up the difficulty of monsters by adding more and more HP to them.

In the end it's PvP that faces the blowback as players reach the point that one shot kills 24/7 are the rule and things like hard caps have to be implimented.

The way I personally view this an optimal situation would be to go through, rebalance the ENTIRE game from the ground up in terms of HP and damage from both players and monsters and get everything on an even footing to where the damage players do to monsters will kill the monsters and kill players with out being OP vs either one when used in one base format. However, this is unrealistic as it would be a complete revamping of the damage system which I do not see happening.

To 'fix' low HP set ups would be an immense challange. Making it so hard caps are no longer needed would be a huge challange in and of itself and one I doubt the FC team are prepared to take just now.

The only "quick" fix I could possibly see is the limiting the number of specials available to a character, namely the FA/SA/AS ones, for use at one time and then put a hard number cap rather than a % on the damage it can do. That would make low HP set ups weak against these attacks.

However, I must say that despite how realistic or cookie cutter or what ever you are looking for you have to remember, this is a make believe universe. Suspend the disbelief a little. Perhaps the players nanites are working to prevent instant bodily destruction and so scramble to block out part of the damage ::shrugs:: In the end, low HP vs high HP, it's going to be an argument until all damage and hp are nerfed to the point that fighting a player will be the same as fighting a mob of equal level.

Right now all of us players are the equivlant of dyna mobs

To fix damage we'd have to be reduced to random trash.

I don't want that personally.

[Obtena]

But there ARE just some base rules that every mmo should follow.

Well, that's where you are wrong. MMO's make their own rules with the game physics. High HP isn't a convention that needs to be followed to be a 'correct' MMO.

[Vgman01]

I have to say that one of the biggest problems that any long term MMO faces is damage inflation. It is as rampant as economy inflation. As a game progesses damage ramps up to create new benchmarks and make people continue to get that warm and fuzzy feeling.

Imagine how the first player to cap full auto at 15k felt? But when everyone is doing it it's not that fabulous.

So they keep upping the damage we can deal by giving us new and shinier toys. To counter this they ramp up the difficulty of monsters by adding more and more HP to them.

In the end it's PvP that faces the blowback as players reach the point that one shot kills 24/7 are the rule and things like hard caps have to be implimented.

The way I personally view this an optimal situation would be to go through, rebalance the ENTIRE game from the ground up in terms of HP and damage from both players and monsters and get everything on an even footing to where the damage players do to monsters will kill the monsters and kill players with out being OP vs either one when used in one base format. However, this is unrealistic as it would be a complete revamping of the damage system which I do not see happening.

To 'fix' low HP set ups would be an immense challange. Making it so hard caps are no longer needed would be a huge challange in and of itself and one I doubt the FC team are prepared to take just now.

The only "quick" fix I could possibly see is the limiting the number of specials available to a character, namely the FA/SA/AS ones, for use at one time and then put a hard number cap rather than a % on the damage it can do. That would make low HP set ups weak against these attacks.

However, I must say that despite how realistic or cookie cutter or what ever you are looking for you have to remember, this is a make believe universe. Suspend the disbelief a little. Perhaps the players nanites are working to prevent instant bodily destruction and so scramble to block out part of the damage ::shrugs:: In the end, low HP vs high HP, it's going to be an argument until all damage and hp are nerfed to the point that fighting a player will be the same as fighting a mob of equal level.

Right now all of us players are the equivlant of dyna mobs

To fix damage we'd have to be reduced to random trash.

I don't want that personally.

Prety much aggree with most of this.

Well, that's where you are wrong. MMO's make their own rules with the game physics. High HP isn't a convention that needs to be followed to be a 'correct' MMO.

You know what bro your right. In fact lets make a ground breaking new mmo where you start at max lvl and the best gear in the game and every time you kill a mob you loose exp and lvl and your gear downgrades. The ultamit goal will be to deal as little dmg as humanly possible, yea that'd be awsome /roll eyes

[iolanda]

Lets say we get it your way and make low hp setups not viable in pvp anymore , by using the hardcap thingy you talk about .

But ! Now what? Everyone will just go for the highest hp possible ingame . Also lets think about it even more shall we if we do this and the only changes that will happen are specials such as AS/FA/Dimanch and so on what will happen .
You should think about it more or pvp more dont know where you made the mistake but basicly if you make people aim for as much hp as possible since that will be the "best" setup you can do you will have to change every perk action ingame also to scale the loss of dmg . Since yes it will be alot harder to kill people that have 30k hp instead of 13k , also normal hits will have to be changed . Over all removing the diversity (god i hate agreeing with obtena) of the PvP hp base will change the game in more ways that you can think , whole system would need to be revamped .

[Obtena]

You know what bro your right.

NICE!!! I guess this is /thread then?

[Notcrattey]

stuff

All I'm saying, is people shouldn't get an advantage for anything they purposely decrease except for obvious ones; like not iping body dev = more IP in other places, but it shouldn't lead to more survivability in terms of having less of it.

It's like saying: because I didn't IP evades I should do just fine as compared to the person that did.

Of course people who actually believe things should work the way you say they should is quite a minority

[Vgman01]

Lets say we get it your way and make low hp setups not viable in pvp anymore , by using the hardcap thingy you talk about .

But ! Now what? Everyone will just go for the highest hp possible ingame . Also lets think about it even more shall we if we do this and the only changes that will happen are specials such as AS/FA/Dimanch and so on what will happen .
You should think about it more or pvp more dont know where you made the mistake but basicly if you make people aim for as much hp as possible since that will be the "best" setup you can do you will have to change every perk action ingame also to scale the loss of dmg . Since yes it will be alot harder to kill people that have 30k hp instead of 13k , also normal hits will have to be changed . Over all removing the diversity (god i hate agreeing with obtena) of the PvP hp base will change the game in more ways that you can think , whole system would need to be revamped .

I never suggested that damage should get an actual hardcap on players, that would be dumb. I suggested that all player dmg be scaled down to about halve the dmg it is now (in a pvp situation) then lower mob hp (preferably all non raid boss hp) and lower the diffrence in hp betwean, say an nm nt and a trox enf so that it isnt as huge a gap as it is now (trox enf should have more but not as much more as they do currently). Like Xercia said, the only way to get pvp on the right track is to utterly revamp prety much the entire game wich just isnt going to happen, at least not any time soon.