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Thread: Means can you explain ...

  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by navycut View Post
    So, what would you like the nr check to be?
    trader drains 140-150% (since traders get 400+ nano skills more than the rest of AO)

    crat init debuffs 110-120%

    doc debuffs 120-130%


    it's silly to get drained with 4k nano resist @ full def even more silly getting init debuffed @ full def with 4k NR

  2. #22
    ^^ that's simply stupid really. realize that traders don't have traditional buffs like others and start much lower in stats than everyone else.
    Awwww muffin, need a tissue?

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Obtena View Post
    start much lower in stats than everyone else.

    Well i can argue about this but it's self explained. Anyone who has played a trader knows this.

  4. #24
    120-130? 140-150???
    Do you have any idea how silly those numbers are? Ask MPs how happy they were with the old NSD.
    Deadly Whisper - RK1
    too many alts for to little space

  5. #25
    it's silly to get drained with 4k nano resist @ full def even more silly getting init debuffed @ full def with 4k NR
    It strikes me that in this forum, which is all about giving feedback about the rebalancing, you then have to take into account what has already been announced about the rebalancing. That then, needs to include things like the plan to introduce local cool-downs to nanolines to prevent spamming of nanos, shortening of durations etc.

    In fact, at present a player with a nanoresist of 4K @ full def will see a doc with 2500 attack skills land his 100% NR init debuff ~30% of the time. If you increased the def check to 130%, it would still land ~20% of the time. Increasing def checks isn't really the solution that you are after.

    It's also important to keep in mind that the numbers need to be relative to skills budgets. NR has a much higher skills budget for nearly all players, than has Nano AR for docs/traders/crats/MPs etc. It's important that if a Doc equips himself to reach nearly the very top nano AR available on UBT - then he should be landing a high majority of those nanos... in the same way as it's important that a player reaching the very highest NR values should be resisting a high majority of those nanos.

    But what should happen when top Nano AR by skill budget meets top Nano Resist by skill budget? Should ~50% land? I'd guess that 2500 attack skills on UBT is near the top of the range for Docs - yet against 4000 NR at full def, they'd only achieve a 20% landing rate. Is that fair? That even by reaching near the top of their available skills budgets, they can still only get a 20% landing rate against the top defence budgets?

    We also know from the present perk implementation, that making the balance of attack Vs defence too black and white causes some serious balance issues and tends to skew the PvP game in particular. Skills increases on both the attack and defence sides become meaningless unless they're actually crossing that black/white threshold. It's important that for both sides of the equation, attackers and defenders, they should be able to affect their chances meaningfully with their character builds.

    There needs to be a solution where being able to stop 4 out of 5 of those debuffs is really meaningful - but it also needs to be a solution where being near the top of your available attack skills budget allows you to land 4 out of 5 of those debuffs against an average defence.

    The local cool-down approach is a part of that solution. By removing the ability to simply continue 'spamming' the debuff, the importance of resisting it is much greater.

    Similarly, if more "Affected by" nanos are used to prevent the same target being debuffed with the same effect over and over again in quick succession - then each resist becomes more meaningful.

    Another area that FC have announced is that debuff nanos will be changed to have shorter durations only. That is, to maintain an effect the attacker will need to land more again making each resist and each point of skill (both attack and defence) more meaningful.

    All together, these sorts of changes are likely to change the environment considerably... and whatever happens, there will need to be a wholesale readjustment of things like Def checks, immunities, removers etc in the light of the local cool-down implementations and duration changes etc..

    But however that ends up, it will be important that it's as rewarding for a caster to reach for the top end of their nanoskills budgets, as it is for a defender to reach for the top end of their Nanoresist budgets. If a character has invested heavily in Nano Resist and is playing in full def, then they should be able to resist quite reliably against average Nano ARs and things like cool-downs and "Affected by" nanos should make those resists meaningful... but when they come up against a character who has invested heavily in Nano AR, then that attacker should be able to land his nanos reasonably well too.

    That's the essence of balance.

    X
    Last edited by XtremTech; May 26th, 2010 at 10:40:49.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by miharuchan View Post
    Well i can argue about this but it's self explained. Anyone who has played a trader knows this.
    You can argue if you want. A trader in undrained state has MUCH lower stats than most other professions in the game. Anyone who has played a trader knowns this.
    Awwww muffin, need a tissue?

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Obtena View Post
    You can argue if you want. A trader in undrained state has MUCH lower stats than most other professions in the game. Anyone who has played a trader knowns this.
    Lower, yes. Not MUCH lower though. AFAIK, they are roughly in range of fully buffed kippurs/MAs/advs/fixers and still better then engies/shades/MPs/docs, or even some agents.

    They have decent perk support and adequate symb support for their main weapon. They can also "abuse" this, if needed.

    Their undrained nano skill stats are a different story.
    Renowned jester of the double AS Tigress

    MP in sneak eNSDed me and did about 20k damage in 10-12 seconds

  8. #28
    K, you want to be picky to argue, I'm ignoring that. It doesn't matter. My point was clear. It's stupid to increase a trader's NR check for drains, which they rely on for weapons buffs. I don't see anyone advocating making all other weapons buffs hostile with 150% def checks, but for traders who are averagely skilled, it's completely reasonable? That's dumb.
    Awwww muffin, need a tissue?

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Obtena View Post
    K, you want to be picky to argue, I'm ignoring that. It doesn't matter. My point was clear. It's stupid to increase a trader's NR check for drains, which they rely on for weapons buffs. I don't see anyone advocating making all other weapons buffs hostile with 150% def checks, but for traders who are averagely skilled, it's completely reasonable? That's dumb.
    so, i have another good idea then instead of increasing the NR check lower the effectiveness of the drain on pvp target to 50% but let the trader have the 100% effect.

    actually make every debuff ingame work 50% in pvp would kinda even out the overpowered debuffs, but still not making them useless.

    or make the debuffs act differently on ppl with high and low NR's.

    example player 1 has 2k NR and player 2 has 4k NR


    player 1 hit by init debuff ubt (100% effect) player 2 hit by same ubt but the effect is only half ie 50% of what player 1 has making nanoresist usable for something, and not in need of having 5-6k NR to counter nano's
    Last edited by Sniker; May 26th, 2010 at 20:31:24.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Obtena View Post
    K, you want to be picky to argue, I'm ignoring that. It doesn't matter. My point was clear. It's stupid to increase a trader's NR check for drains, which they rely on for weapons buffs. I don't see anyone advocating making all other weapons buffs hostile with 150% def checks, but for traders who are averagely skilled, it's completely reasonable? That's dumb.
    CCL, just saying.
    Renowned jester of the double AS Tigress

    MP in sneak eNSDed me and did about 20k damage in 10-12 seconds

  11. #31
    in my humble tl5 nt experience, ubt lands more often than trader drains, if trader isn't predrained. Dunno why it happen, proly docs tend to have less gimp nanoskills than traders.

    Crats Contemplation lands pretty easily, but it insta break on attacks.

  12. #32
    some of you ppls talk about " balance this balance that " like you have any clue about what " balance " will do , or even better , if its an actual FACT or just some dream/imagination/FICTION.

    I cant wait for balance.

  13. #33
    Well... given that this is a forum about the Balance effort that FC have announced... what else would we talk about?

    And given that FC have published the perk changes and some of the mechanics changes they plan to make, we have at least a partial idea of what the balancing will do - and so based on that we're able to comment and give some feedback into the process.

    As to waiting for balance... a game like this will never actually be perfectly balanced. So if that's what you're expecting, you'll do nothing but wait, I'm afraid. Best you can expect is that the best possible compromise on balance is achieved at any given time.

    X

  14. #34
    All people that have some knowledge about PVP will agree, that changing way of Drains/UBT on work is far much complicated then it seems so. I say, there is just need to chance spamability - and FC will do attempts to do so.

    NR is borked - I say, but thats not true and you all know this. problem is, that every debuff will eventually land - well, its a semi problem, because we know it should happen, but if u get hit, u cant outheal, if u got debuffed, u are deadmeat or so. Anyways, only 1 option is to shorten possibility of chain spam, and it will be good.
    I like PvP
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    TL4: Ladyrazor 112 fixer (retired) / Shha 100 NT / Cycolina lvl 100 NM Enforcer
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