Questions? Ask!

[FoosballX]

Alright unless this has changed but I have this from an email from Devdas on 9/30/07

That questions is not so eeasy to answer.
Esantially Rubi-Ka is completely under OT Controle,
especially after the Tir Accord has been anulled.
The Clans merely hold there land with the use of weapons.

The Neutral areas are only neutral because there are neutrals living
and Omni-Tek doesn't care about those areas.
Its way easier for them to just ignore them instead of getting
bad press for doing anything stupid there.

Okay from this anything would be sub-leased from Omni-Tek, now this is one issue.

Now let bring in the City of Newland into play.
With this logic this defeats the purpose of a Newland government, or any Neutral city government, because there is no real city there to run because in essence the ICC is control of the territory. From what I see here any neutral business is under ICC jurisdiction, also the city wouldn't be getting any revenue from the business.
This also makes the Trade Minister position for Newland pointless, because business aren't being cleared to set by the Newland government, but the ICC. Honestly this really could make the whole council pointless, along with the Militia. If the ICC is in essence in control of everything, then they should have their guards out and about.

If anything I would see it as the Newland government subleases from Omni or has something from the ICC, then any business in Newland would be under the Newland government and receive any taxes or whatever.

And what about all the business in Borealis pre Omni retake, would they have been paying a lease to the ICC as well?


Anyway I have to say I'm shocked and impressed I wasn't expecting an answer until like Monday or Tuesday. Wow man get some sleep. It's not that late here but I've been drinking so I"m passing out as well.
As far of the other questions, be careful on the chriop one, don't want to see you go flying off a cliff.

[Kintaii]

Ah, no, I think that's where the confusion's coming in. Dante's not saying that the ICC owns and controls the Neutral territories - He's saying that they own the lease to the bar (and certain other establishments in the neutral areas).

Think of it like this: Omni-Tek is in governmental control of the planet. However, when someone outside the Omni-Tek faction wants to accomplish something, they need some method of doing so. For the Clans back in the day, a lot of their funding came from Sol Banking - If it wasn't for the money they were receiving from the rival corporations, they never would have been able to establish a foothold on the planet. Even though a lot of their startup capital came from outside sources, though, that didn't mean that SBC was in governmental control of the Clan areas - They just funded something that was in their best interests.

Same basic principal applies to places like Neuters - Starting out on their own, I can't imagine that all of the people settling down in Newland had mad enough amounts of cash to start up the lives they wanted. So, to be able to afford running and owning certain new businesses, they took out what is essentially a small business loan from the ICC - The ICC created, funded, and constructed the business while maintaining on-paper ownership of the property. The initial individual would run the establishment for as long as they wished, paying a monthly 'rent' to the ICC, and then when that individual decided to retire (or got themselves killed, one or the other) the establishment could remain open until a new caretaker/manager was found.

So no - Don't think of it from a government-based standpoint; It's more like the ICC acting like a bank. For the record, this is also how I view most other bar-like establishments on Rubi-Ka working, just substituting the ICC for the faction the bar happens to be located within (IE: Clan leadership leasing out The Happy Rebel, or OT leasing out Rompa); It helps things make a bit more logical sense when it comes to stuff like there not being any defined owner of entertainment venues, or various players stepping up and creating a character which acts as the owner/manager/supervisor of a place like that.

Hopefully that answers the question. =D

[Pheats]

Would also point out that that mail from Devdas is rather out dated these days.

Omni-Tek no longer has complete land control over rubi-ka and many organizations have bought/leased land for their own, however as Kintaii said this doesn't mean everything on that land belongs to them as others can sublease from them and such.

This being a key example, Newland is now owned by a neutral government, builds neuters and lease's it out, as such they get rent from it and Newland gets some tax from them and the bar.

[trousers]

There's still some contradiction here...

If the ICC was acting like a bank and fronted the credits the person who borrowed the money would own Neuters, not the ICC. All the ICC would have is a lean against the property should the lender default.

Even if the original owner defaulted I highly doubt the ICC would maintain property rights over simply selling the establishment because like most banks, they're not in the property management business and wouldn't want to be arsed with every little aspect of owning the property, let alone a bar.

Can you imagine if a Fight breaks out at Neuters? I doubt the ICC would want the Newland Government knocking on their door every day demanding restitution for damages the patrons in the ICC's Bar caused to the city.

______

I think the better solution is to simply say Dante owns the mortgage on the property, that way it's his Property and he pays taxes to Newland. It would put it more in league with reality.

[Leileena]

Would make some more sense if the establishment was rented from Newland City rather than from ICC I suppose yeah...

[FoosballX]

Well I guess it does answer some questions, but it does seem to make things needlessly complex.
I wish I had the time to really get into this, but sadly I do not. Not that I think what I would say would matter much anyway, so I'll just nod and shut my mouth, and side step the plot holes as I see them.
But thanks for the answers.

[Effrit]

((Posted in wrong place again! I swear topics keep jumping around in here!))

[Ukblizzard]

Did someone move the sign up to events button from the account page to a new stealthy location?

[Dagget]

Question Re: LTC/legacy interaction with players and staying 'IC'.

Simon traveling to attend a CoT meeting (about the only time he is seen each month) observes clanners ganking Sentinel guards, so he sends them to reclaim.

Proper behavior for that char.

Now suppose he's headed to that CoT meeting and passes some Omnis doing their PvP quest (killing some Delta Unit guards and the big NPC). What does he do to stay in character?

1) send them to reclaim

2) comment that if Higgins can't handle a few Omnis he deserves to go to reclaim.

3) put on blinders and pretend he sees nothing

4) be sure to not have to pass near the Tir Subway on his way to CoT meetings and thus hopefully avoid having to choose among the above options.

[Pheats]

Ukblizzard, noted and passed on to those that need to know.

Dagget, probably 1 or 2 depending on situations, if possible probably 1 though the legacys do not always walk around ready to shoot and may not always be able too at which point number 2.

And before anyone states that its unfair, anyone taking part in a pvp quest should expect to be shot, all they have to do is await Simons passage then return, unlike players he may easily defeat them but not camp them.

The same goes for the Clans heading to Omni-HQ or ent and running into the more aggressive directors (ivan/rosuma)

[Pheats]

A few more comments on some of the previous subjects,

First of all the ICC owning Neuters, while we say its like a bank in so much that it financed the setting up of it we do not mean it IS a bank, no modern bank could conceivably come close to what the ICC is, a galaxy spanning coalition of numerous corporations, with a sizable corporate force of their own that would spawn everything from land and property management to corner stores and food vendors.

As for why the Newland council isn't said to have set it up and own it, that is because the Newland council is relatively new, while the bar was set up long before neutral independence was thought of, let alone an independent city government.

And foosball, as for the whole story information/creation for the players, ideally Kintaii would give a proper response, but just so you have something to work on:

You will have to bear with us with lots of this, while the events team and Kintaii know a lot about the story no one of us knows everything in full detail, as such we will often have to spend time looking things up, discussing things or filling in information, if you have a question about something just ask, and we will try and give a reasonable answer to something.

And as for creating story stuff, well theirs nothing saying you can't send it in for us to have a look at, theirs no guarantee we will approve it or integrate it, however I don't doubt that their will be times when we will accept it and add it in, specially around the area's players have a large effect on.

[trousers]

You're ignoring what Kintaii said, though.

Same basic principal applies to places like Neuters - Starting out on their own, I can't imagine that all of the people settling down in Newland had mad enough amounts of cash to start up the lives they wanted.

The same apples to most people, In-Game and IRL.

So, to be able to afford running and owning certain new businesses, they took out what is essentially a small business loan from the ICC ...

At this point I think you still have support because this makes sense.

... - The ICC created, funded, and constructed the business while maintaining on-paper ownership of the property.

You just jumped the shark. What this suggests is that someone wants to start a business (open a bar) so they have two options:

1) Approach a bank, take a loan, and open a business you own.
2) Approach the ICC and have the ICC build and take ownership of your ideas and dreams and then lease your dreams from the ICC.

Option 1 is what happens in reality and makes sense.

Option 2 is nonsensical because it involves turning yourself into an indentured servant in a culture where that wouldn't happen.

An Example, in case neither you nor Kintaii have ever been property owners:

Three years ago I bought my home. I, like the person who wanted to open Neuters, couldn't afford to buy the house because property is expensive. So to remedy this I approached a Bank. The Bank gave me money in exchange for a promise to pay them back. I then used the Money to purchase my Property. This transaction ends with me owning the property, not the bank.

Very few people would do what you're suggesting, which is:

Three years ago I moved into my home. I, like the person who wanted to open Neuters, couldn't afford to buy the house because property is expensive. So to remedy this I approached the Federal Government. The Federal Government bought the land and build the house of my dreams, which I will never own. I now pay the Government every month for a taste of what my dreams could be, but will never realize because I allowed the government to take ownership of them.

I just think you guys are coming down on the wrong side of this and I think you should take a few minutes to review all the posts made on this topic and reconsider your positions.

[Pheats]

You can often rent or purchase property from banks, if the bank takes owner ship of the property due to failure to pay the mortgage payments or such they will then sell it on to recoup the money lost in lending for the initial purchase.

A business and a house are slightly different mind, for example the ICC may have helped the initial proprietor (who may not have had the means to set up a fully functional bar from funds alone) set up the business for a percent ownership, add in to the fact that the bar could be a few hundred years old the original owner could have long since been killed or had to hand over ownership to prevent large debts to ICC if business didn't go well.

ICC then keep it running to keep a steady income from it while leasing the actual control of the bar to others through out the years.

But as it is, the ICC technically own the bar but they lease out the management to prospective owners, so they still get revenue from it but the lease owner gets to run it how they want, should they run it into the ground it defaults back to the ICC with the manager going into debt to them.

The reason Newland City does not own it is because they are relatively new and after buying the actual city lands the businesses themselves would still need to be run by others to keep tax money coming in, perhaps they may purchase some of the businesses eventually but they don't really have the man power to run a city AND manage every business in the city.

[trousers]

A business and a house are exactly the same when you’re talking about taking out a loan to pay for it.

Considering how there is floundering going on here trying to explain who owns it and why (Kintaii saying a private person started it, and Pheats saying the ICC (somehow) started it) leads me to believe that this discussion isn’t a matter of trying to figure out what it right and what it wrong based on sense, but more an attempt to explain away something that’s In-Game that doesn’t make a lot of sense.

The Liability of a Government to control a bar is insane.
The Conflict of Interest of the Body designed to regulate business being in the business of operating small businesses is insane.

But, I guess we’ll just have to leave it at that.

[Kintaii]

I also think that this is one of those issues that, in a world of giant floating nanobot based meatballs, really doesn't matter *that* much in the long run. Yes, the ICC helped in establishing a business - Yes, they retained paper ownership of said business as a long-term venture for their corporation while allowing someone else to oversee operations and receive the majority of the revenue. ICC makes money, someone else gets to make money, all is good for all parties involved. Is it a bit non-standard compared to current Earth-based economics and financing? Sure. Does it make sense given the geopolitical climate of a universe dominated by ultracorporations who are capable of colonizing and policing entire planets? Works for me.

The only argument dissuading the idea I've seen so far is "that's not how it works right now on Earth", and... well, that's not really a very convincing one, sorry to say. :\ I prefer my own explanation because it gives a good, logical, reasonable excuse as to why a business is still up and running using the same location and branding despite changing hands fates only know how many times. It explains the business being able to maintain a long-term vitality in an area rampant with constant wars, death, strife, etc. etc. It just... works.

That said, peeps have posted in here before about why we don't explain a lot of the minutiae behind the mechanics/logistics of life in 29484. It's pretty much for this exact reason - No matter what explanation I or anyone else comes up with, someone out there will be unhappy with it. Its often better to leave a lot of those details up to the imagination of the player, as opposed to injecting continuity quibbles among the player-base where they aren't really needed. And this is coming from someone who's a dedicated, die-hard continuity cop - Most of the time when I watch TV I end up screaming at the tube wondering why 'x' doesn't make sense. The more you *try* to nail down specifics like that, the less sense it'll make in the long run.

So yes - Pheats has been more-or-less quoting me and my own explanations regarding the situation, and its where I plan on leaving the topic. The ICC funded the business, maintains ownership of the business, and will lease the business out to whomever so wishes under a "pseudo-franchise" style model.

[Pheats]

Also I'm often just hypothesizing on many ways about how things could have been done, and also while the loan system for purchasing it may be the same, if you factor in the fact that the ICC could have been asked to help with the initial setting up and running while the business gets on its feet its slightly different, which is why programs like dragons den exist where large companies finance the setting up of smaller companies for a percentage of the business equity.

I to believe that nailing down everything will never make everyone happy, but presenting some reasonable examples will allow for them to more easily come up with their own theories.

[trousers]

I suppose it's logical when you change your position on the issue.

Think of it like this: Omni-Tek is in governmental control of the planet. However, when someone outside the Omni-Tek faction wants to accomplish something, they need some method of doing so. For the Clans back in the day, a lot of their funding came from Sol Banking - If it wasn't for the money they were receiving from the rival corporations, they never would have been able to establish a foothold on the planet. Even though a lot of their startup capital came from outside sources, though, that didn't mean that SBC was in governmental control of the Clan areas - They just funded something that was in their best interests.

Same basic principal applies to places like Neuters - Starting out on their own, I can't imagine that all of the people settling down in Newland had mad enough amounts of cash to start up the lives they wanted. So, to be able to afford running and owning certain new businesses, they took out what is essentially a small business loan from the ICC - The ICC created, funded, and constructed the business while maintaining on-paper ownership of the property. The initial individual would run the establishment for as long as they wished, paying a monthly 'rent' to the ICC, and then when that individual decided to retire (or got themselves killed, one or the other) the establishment could remain open until a new caretaker/manager was found.

So no - Don't think of it from a government-based standpoint; It's more like the ICC acting like a bank. For the record, this is also how I view most other bar-like establishments on Rubi-Ka working, just substituting the ICC for the faction the bar happens to be located within (IE: Clan leadership leasing out The Happy Rebel, or OT leasing out Rompa); It helps things make a bit more logical sense when it comes to stuff like there not being any defined owner of entertainment venues, or various players stepping up and creating a character which acts as the owner/manager/supervisor of a place like that.

Hopefully that answers the question. =D

Now, your position makes sense.

[FoosballX]

Granted yes we can not always use RL mechanics in RP, because of the 30k in the future deal. However, we don't have 30k of source martial so people have to fall back on what they know. (some areas we're lucky if we have 10 years of solid source material).

I'm just going to say my peace and leave it at that. The question here is one of plausibility and believability.
One I can't believe the ICC juggernaut is really going to be will to pay out some kind of tax to the Newland government for a building they hold rights too.
Also with the logic presented a Neutral or an Omni could go to the ICC with enough cash and lease out a business in Tir.

Also most of Newland looks like it was made with spare parts. It looks like people went out found what parts they could and built it for themselves. If the ICC gave them loans they got ripped off. And lets go into the 30k in the future with meatballs floating around.
Notum has made energy a non issue, so I really don't think building something like a bar would take all that much. I mean when we look at the past man has done some really impressive things with hand tools, I think it's pretty safe to say that 30k in the future with all the tech around, putting up a few buildings wouldn't really take all that much work or funding.

Honestly essayist way to explain it is, Newland is a city, the government controls the land. Dante ones Neuters outright and pays his tax to the city government. Otherwise you're throwing in unneeded steps. So how does the bar stay there after different changes of hands over the years, the owner just writes a different name on his tax check.

I do agree this is like a TV show/Movie at times, and there will be times when you can't make everyone happy, and there are going to be times were people yell at the screen. Main difference is here people yelling here aren't just watching their interacting.
And I feel a lot of those interacting players put in as much work on their RP as anyone in FC or Events does. So their screams might even be louder.

But I've said my peace, on this subject.
When I get more time I do have something to say about players filling in stuff. But I will save that for another day.

[Effrit]

Couldnt the ICC offer to sell the lease to Dante, Dante cant afford it, but the Newland City Government who is apparently doing well, can. They purchase the lease and Dante pays NLC instead of ICC.
Perhaps the ICC selling that lease was part of i think the term is capital liquification or some such, to help pay for the Peacekeepers new armour?

To me Foosballx's argument makes most sense to me. I always thought it was owned by Newland City, and leased out.

[trousers]

Lasliana,

The problem here is a government owning a bar. This really applies to all of them, but we're just focusing on Neuters because it's underscored with NPC chat.

Imagine if you will, this situation:

Neuters R Us serves a patron too much to drink. This patron then leaves and bar and is involved in a tragic Yalm accident and kills a child. The Bar Manager isn't liable, the owner is. This opens the ICC up to a tremendous about of risk for what would be likely considered a nominal return.

This also opens up the can of worms of "If the bars are owned by the ICC or even Newland, what else is?" and this topic quickly spirals out of control. As Foos said, Not making this a simple issue of Private Property held by an individual over shadows it, and other discussions like it, in a web of unnecessary complexity.