Changes to roots and snares.

[Gridpain]

Sorry if it has been posted before, I didnt chekc hte 3 pages of posts ..

About "- Cooldown should trigger only on landing."
I think that upon a resist or counter (immunity or NR) there should be a cooldown, but shorter than on success rooting...
(like with perks...)

[Mostadio]

Sorry if it has been posted before, I didnt chekc hte 3 pages of posts ..

About "- Cooldown should trigger only on landing."
I think that upon a resist or counter (immunity or NR) there should be a cooldown, but shorter than on success rooting...
(like with perks...)

Definitely some kind of lockout if it's resisted. With the ability to cast multiple nanos at the same time the recharge is no longer any sort of significant penalty. Given enough persistence, eventually the root/snare will land.

[Shrubberyman]

As mentioned a bit earlier on page 1 I think, cooldown starting only on landing would be over the top, because of the supposed spammability of the nanos.
However, now that I see the numbers available to 2 profs out of 14, I'm totally in opposition with immunity triggering any kind of cooldown. Immunity is already a lot too powerful and, by the look of it, still a lot too high.

A mid between that could satisfy a majority I think would be
CC effect landed = full cooldown
CC effect countered = short cooldown
CC effect resisted = no cooldown

[Weltall]

so wtf is the point of resistance if you can just spam it until it lands?

[Shrubberyman]

In moderate amount? Buy you enough time.
With about 70% and SD specials? Just being able to ignore the CCing a lot longer than enough to just wtfpwn the CCing prof opposing you.

innate immnuties of all kind must be nerfed, and nerfed badly, one way or another.

[Weltall]

who has > 70% apart from advs without much of any sacrifice?

Root resistance is fine except on advs and on enfs. Advs really do have way too much and I dunno whose idea it was to tack on root resistances to enfs with their already insane NR and CC removal capability.

I can obtain 70% root resist, but only with sd10 and it's a very big sacrifice to perk that. And if for some reason I wanna sacrifice crap like AR, def, damage/survival/other stuff to perk sd10 then by god, I should be resisting the damn roots.

[Genie]

Im still in favour of target immunity (short) rather than a cooldown for the caster. If you can only cast one root or one snare when you are facing more than one enemy, it cant really be called "crowd" control.

[Shrubberyman]

who has > 70% apart from advs without much of any sacrifice?

Root resistance is fine except on advs and on enfs. Advs really do have way too much and I dunno whose idea it was to tack on root resistances to enfs with their already insane NR and CC removal capability.

I can obtain 70% root resist, but only with sd10 and it's a very big sacrifice to perk that. And if for some reason I wanna sacrifice crap like AR, def, damage/survival/other stuff to perk sd10 then by god, I should be resisting the damn roots.

Innate immunities were already too powerful in pre-balanced AO, because there are no ways to overcome them in any way, whatever the amount of twinking or whatever the silly setup you choose.
Keeping innate immunities as are in the post-balanced AO whereas the CC efficiency would be decreased doesn't make more sense. Either CC will be so uber that they justifies such high amounts being attainable, or innate immunities will need to be nerfed or debuffable or circumventable in some way.

If CC is shorter and with a cooldown or lockout, it would better work, or it's just a piece of useless coding. We'll see what Fc do with immunities, and what will be the defence checks vs CC (if keepers are an example of upcoming CC, 50% def checks are gonna be fun), but what's for sure is that immunities should not trigger any lockout/cooldown, it's already way too powerful as is.

[Weltall]

Innate resistances are not too powerful except, as I said, on advs and enfs.

No cooldown on resistance is simply retarded. You're insane if you think otherwise, seriously, WHAT is the point of even having any resistance when someone can just spam a button and it lands? Buy you some time? ... really? You can't spam a button now or something?

Look at MA/enf fears now. You think any sort of NR can counter that? Even if the fears weren't 50% check, they are spammable until it lands. Only time you'll be able to buy some time is with extremely high NR values ie something like say NR5+ or something.

[Djantro]

WHAT is the point of even having any resistance when someone can just spam a button and it lands? Buy you some time? ... really? You can't spam a button now or something?

Most roots / snare i know are on a 4/5sec cast/recharge time, that alone effectivly "buy you some time", asuming you are lucky. The concept of gaining time with NR / resistance would be fine if it wasn't so luck based, and if you could expect a time gain proportionnal to your amount of NR / resistance. To achieve that, you d need to put an other system in place, cast time on a nano (or recharge time) could be directly linked to your opponent resistance / NR, for instance. That works for any debuff / nuke / CC.

Edit : i m aware i might have not understanding the purpose of your post and quoted you out of context but what i say remains true as a concept imo In other words, you gotta remove as much as possible luck factor when dealing with CC, roots, snare, etc, which is extendable to debuff and nukes.

[Shrubberyman]

Innate resistances are not too powerful except, as I said, on advs and enfs.

No cooldown on resistance is simply retarded. You're insane if you think otherwise, seriously.

Oh yes they are, just because contrary to the spirit of what makes AO different from other games, you can't twink around, nor think around. Flat resistance is flat.
If you want a cooldown to start, work on your NR, MAs aren't the worst off in the department after all.
Be serious, you think it makes any sense to have to bypass Immunity or cooldown, then bypass NR or cooldown then land the CC and see it break on a fart (stims, SD specials) and cooldown? No. Immunity is a no brainer while at least NR is part of the "noble" stats of the game.

WHAT is the point of even having any resistance when someone can just spam a button and it lands? Buy you some time? ... really? You can't spam a button now or something?

Look at MA/enf fears now. You think any sort of NR can counter that? Even if the fears weren't 50% check, they are spammable until it lands. Only time you'll be able to buy some time is with extremely high NR values ie something like say NR5+ or something.

You might not have much experience outside of your own profession, but someone without Acrobat nor heal perks can find those few seconds of spamming not so instant nanos (yea, they are called instant, but you know they ain't, right?) a helluva lot more longer than you'd thing while the MA/Enfo/Advie/Keeper just doesn't care about anything else but pianoalphaing you.

I don't expect Crat/NTs/traders and to an extent fixers to get such low checks on their CC. They were obviously made to land with low nanoskill professions, traditional CC professions will get higher checks because of higher nanoskills, but I guess with some added benefits in the form of longer duration, unbreakability, aftereffects like snares, perhaps checking only 50% of innate immunities, who knows?
As a side note, plz, don't pretend. MAs are quite cool is the NR department, even without NR1 perked. Angevil and Totor4 are perfect exemples of that. When non-NRed MAs can counter CB three or four times in a row repeatedly, it shouts for a profession which doesn't need in any way more defence against nanos.

[Weltall]

Oh yes they are, just because contrary to the spirit of what makes AO different from other games, you can't twink around, nor think around. Flat resistance is flat.
If you want a cooldown to start, work on your NR, MAs aren't the worst off in the department after all.
Be serious, you think it makes any sense to have to bypass Immunity or cooldown, then bypass NR or cooldown then land the CC and see it break on a fart (stims, SD specials) and cooldown? No. Immunity is a no brainer while at least NR is part of the "noble" stats of the game.


You might not have much experience outside of your own profession, but someone without Acrobat nor heal perks can find those few seconds of spamming not so instant nanos (yea, they are called instant, but you know they ain't, right?) a helluva lot more longer than you'd thing while the MA/Enfo/Advie/Keeper just doesn't care about anything else but pianoalphaing you.

I don't expect Crat/NTs/traders and to an extent fixers to get such low checks on their CC. They were obviously made to land with low nanoskill professions, traditional CC professions will get higher checks because of higher nanoskills, but I guess with some added benefits in the form of longer duration, unbreakability, aftereffects like snares, perhaps checking only 50% of innate immunities, who knows?
As a side note, plz, don't pretend. MAs are quite cool is the NR department, even without NR1 perked. Angevil and Totor4 are perfect exemples of that. When non-NRed MAs can counter CB three or four times in a row repeatedly, it shouts for a profession which doesn't need in any way more defence against nanos.

Have an endgameish NT (as well as other ccing and non ccing profs) that I play frequently so no, try again with your nab excuses.

The ONLY profs that I found that resistance to be a problem with were enfs and advs.

[Shrubberyman]

You're not fooling anyone.

[Koizumi]

Noim, no use trying to talk sense into Weltall...apparently some time ago, while playing on his NT, he blinded himself by accident, and forgot, up till today, to use a VS :/
One that does not want to see will always disregard what he doesnt like.

[Notcrattey]

When non-NRed MAs can counter CB three or four times in a row repeatedly

lol what? Are you high? Non NR anything resisting a 55% checking nano more than once is a bit more than far fetched

[Weltall]

Noim, no use trying to talk sense into Weltall...apparently some time ago, while playing on his NT, he blinded himself by accident, and forgot, up till today, to use a VS :/
One that does not want to see will always disregard what he doesnt like.

Oh dear it's you again seriously your NT is excessively gimp, go get some NR
And no my dear Koiznab, my NT has 2 blind HUDs on k? lewl.

So yeah, um when you actually become a decent NT you'll figure out how to kill enfs and stuff instead of going on threads and saying things like "omg I have zero chance vs enfs" QQ enfs are hard but they are by no means impossible.

But yeah as I said, the only problem with resistance is vs is advs and enfs.

[Shrubberyman]

lol what? Are you high? Non NR anything resisting a 55% checking nano more than once is a bit more than far fetched

I will let you check this particular fact with the forementioned MAs. Latest occurance was in june vs Totor4, CB countered 4 times in a row, then thrice in the same BS round.

But yeah as I said, the only problem with resistance is vs is advs and enfs.

The problem with immunities is the way too high availability for some of them, roots, snares and blinds in particular, and the fact they can't be circumvented. We'll see how FC handle them in the future, but in the scope of this particular thread about how CC should work post-balancing, they certainly don't need another boost in the form of triggering a cooldown or local lockout.

[Weltall]

Totor does usually counter my CBs ~1-2 times yeah, 3 times is possible sometimes but pretty rare my NT is NR1 and he (totor) has good NR, ang doesn't have that much NR tho, so I really doubt it'll be the same case with non NR MAs.

But again, seriously if resitances doesn't trigger a cooldown, then there really isn't any point to it, it might as well not even exist if you can just spam a button until it lands.

Especially considering you'll have no penalty (in the form of nano recharge) for even using a root.

[Ocene]

I was hoping root, snares, stuns, and fear, and whatnot,....would get a big big nerf.

In fact I'm hoping the trend is the kind of nanos given to Keepers. Where you gotta make a choice but you got a defense still. Not the case today. Tired of clicking of those Free Movemement Stims every 5 minutes.

PS. I'm actually to the point, where I die in BS on purpose.. so all that is cleared..and I restart fresh in just 30 seconds.

[Xtremtech]

lol what? Are you high? Non NR anything resisting a 55% checking nano more than once is a bit more than far fetched

Difficulty with this kind of thing is that the AO RNG has a tendency to get a bit streaky - and when people see it happen once or twice, they tend to be easily convinced that it not only happens but happens a lot more than it actually does.

Balance has to be based, primarily, on the overall statistics across large samples and across all occurrences. But there is also an argument, that the actual goal of balancing is to make the game experience better... and so if most players feel like their enjoyment is being seriously hampered by CC landing too much, then there's an argument that - whether it's statistically sound or not - the present balance is not achieving the desired end-effect.

It's one of those things about these games, that sometimes you need to go with the feelings of the player-base despite the statistics. So in discussions like this, you almost end up trying to balance out the level of emotion and impact on subjective experience between CCers and CCed as much as you're balancing the statistically correct, objective impact.

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