Changes to roots and snares.

[RimorRage]

I think the problem with this issue is people are forgetting the 'choice' aspect of the game. Is it not in the ethos of the game that in order to do something repetitively successfully one should have to invest some time and effort in to it?

CC should be implemented in a way which means that, If you want your CC to always land you should invest in higher nanoskills at the sacrifice of something (defence?) and if you want to not be CC'd you should invest in resistances at the cost of something (offence?).

Maybe people are forgetting that those they cannot CC may have invested time and money in to making it so, and that is their reward.

Obviously there should not be a clear choice but you should not be able to have your cake and eat it.

[Shrubberyman]

I think the problem with this issue is people are forgetting the 'choice' aspect of the game. Is it not in the ethos of the game that in order to do something repetitively successfully one should have to invest some time and effort in to it?

CC should be implemented in a way which means that, If you want your CC to always land you should invest in higher nanoskills at the sacrifice of something (defence?) and if you want to not be CC'd you should invest in resistances at the cost of something (offence?).

Maybe people are forgetting that those they cannot CC may have invested time and money in to making it so, and that is their reward.

Obviously there should not be a clear choice but you should not be able to have your cake and eat it.

I think no one could disagree to this spirit, or they have chosen the wrong game. However, your point of view stands true if you are having Nano AR vs Nano Resistance in mind. The same can't be said about Immunities as no amount of time, creds, efforts or twinking can overcome them. Only luck can help you, and the higher the immunity, the lower the odds if you are the would-be CCer.

But again, seriously if resitances doesn't trigger a cooldown, then there really isn't any point to it, it might as well not even exist if you can just spam a button until it lands.

Especially considering you'll have no penalty (in the form of nano recharge) for even using a root.

NR need to remain the master defence against any form of nano offence, not a secondary barrier should immunity be bypassed. A CCer blindly spamming his CC until it lands or get countered is doing you a favor. If you come to have perked SD, he's even prolly digging his own grave, cause if by luck or shere stubborness he bypassed Immunity and Nano resistance, you don't even have to wait for the cc to break or finish. Sd removers, 100% immunity from one of them, free mvts, spirit purges, totw/IS rods guarantee you that the CC which landed won't stay more than a few secs in your NCUs.

CC are already getting shorter, they don't need to be even less useful by triggering a cooldown vs Immunities which by all means and intent will prolly be longer than the recharge they have now.

I was hoping root, snares, stuns, and fear, and whatnot,....would get a big big nerf.

Bigger than a duration counted in seconds and unspammability? Well, alright, let's go that way, after all it would make it a lot easier then to ask for huge buffage in offence and defence to compensate. Perhaps even heal, now that would be cool for crats/NTs...

[Weltall]

I think no one could disagree to this spirit, or they have chosen the wrong game. However, your point of view stands true if you are having Nano AR vs Nano Resistance in mind. The same can't be said about Immunities as no amount of time, creds, efforts or twinking can overcome them. Only luck can help you, and the higher the immunity, the lower the odds if you are the would-be CCer.

No, this is what it is. If you sacrifice enough to perk sd10, then you shouldn't be getting rooted much. So you become stronger vs cc profs BUT weaker vs non ccing profs. That is balanced.

NR need to remain the master defence against any form of nano offence, not a secondary barrier should immunity be bypassed. A CCer blindly spamming his CC until it lands or get countered is doing you a favor. If you come to have perked SD, he's even prolly digging his own grave, cause if by luck or shere stubborness he bypassed Immunity and Nano resistance, you don't even have to wait for the cc to break or finish. Sd removers, 100% immunity from one of them, free mvts, spirit purges, totw/IS rods guarantee you that the CC which landed won't stay more than a few secs in your NCUs.

You're seriously acting like all pvpers who have access to SD perk it to 10 which is far from the truth and no I disagree for something as extremely powerful as roots, which gives a massive advantage over melee profs, it needs some sort of secondary defense.

When I fight vs shades it's quite laughable how rootable they are, I can just keep them rooted there, while I'm free to do wtf I like on them at that point. That's what you want for all profs right?


But say shades do perk SD10, now, sure, they'll be hard to root but on the other hand they'll be losing out on essential stuff that makes them viable vs other profs, so all in all it's balanced and as rimorrage said, it's their choice to be stronger vs cc while being vulnerable to other profs.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

No, this is what it is. If you sacrifice enough to perk sd10, then you shouldn't be getting rooted much. So you become stronger vs cc profs BUT weaker vs non ccing profs. That is balanced..

Balanced except that if for whatever reason after perking SD10, you actually get close to a CC prof you're going to kill them how?

Lets see, which of these CC profs are going to squish if I get close to them:

Agent: nope, never nada, unless FP doc magically runs out the moment I start my alpha, it's highly unlikely this will result in a kill, ESPECIALLY when you consider that because I perked SD10 I no longer have stuns, or for other profs missing big hard hitting perks. Ok, that didn't work. (note, it may work on MA due to stacking init debuffs in other lines, won't work for keeper, won't work for shade, advy is loltastic I don't care)

Trader: NOPE. drained into next week. that won't work.

Crat: Ok, IF you manage to catch a crat by surprise and he doesn't have 5 billion AAD, you might be able to kill him with hotswaps by the time his pets chew you a new *******. for MA's, a possibility. For keepers and shades? LOL NO.

NT: If you manage to break free of his roots, and he doesn't kite you, you might end up with a good fight, although, sheesh, those 10 perks in SD means no stuns, and 2 fewer init debuffs, meaning, whatever "good fight" you were going to have just degraded to: how long till I die. thanks for coming out.


So, Weltall, I appreciate your point, giving up 10 perks to SD in endgame is a lesson in futility so even IF you were to try it, (as you said no-one does, they only perk it up to 4 or whatever) 1. because even if you do resist roots and snares, you'll still not have the static offence or activateable perks to kill your CC opponent. and 2. for all those profs whom CC is not an issue, you are mincemeat.
3. there is far more non-CC profs than CC profs.

You're seriously acting like all pvpers who have access to SD perk it to 10 which is far from the truth and no I disagree for something as extremely powerful as roots, which gives a massive advantage over melee profs, it needs some sort of secondary defense.

When I fight vs shades it's quite laughable how rootable they are, I can just keep them rooted there, while I'm free to do wtf I like on them at that point. That's what you want for all profs right?


But say shades do perk SD10, now, sure, they'll be hard to root but on the other hand they'll be losing out on essential stuff that makes them viable vs other profs, so all in all it's balanced and as rimorrage said, it's their choice to be stronger vs cc while being vulnerable to other profs.

Wrong. Most profs who perk SD 10 can't kill anyone or just get facerolled from losing out on huge parts of their defensive toolset.

What is the point of perking SD 10 if you can't kill the people whom you need to get close to to kill?

Sounds like a big ol' catch 22.

[Captian]

From a shades pov I will say that being "strong" v cc nanos is an invalid response as most people who have cc nanos eat us without even using them. On top of that, shade is completely perk reliant and any perks in SD is a perk sink. Consider that we don't have enough ar to perk most CC profs let alone catch up to them with the silly runspeed cap. Heck, if roots/snares didn't break on hit I would never beat a NT. On top of that, even if we do train SD 10, crats procs still root us and everyone else, if they're willing to spend the extra 10 seconds to spam it a couple times, can root us.

So, to say that this would make it balanced is not correct and in fact the opposite. If roots were this way then there would be no point to play a pvp prof other than a rooting ranged prof as there would be no way to get around them without giving up the ability to kill the CC prof.

[Neista]

This discussion seems all about pvp....seems like these changes are gonna render roots/snares near useless in pvm...

Just for one example with short duration and local cooldown no more rooting the Balls at Sleek, is this intended or is pvm just not something FC are taking into consideration?

[Ocene]

This discussion seems all about pvp....seems like these changes are gonna render roots/snares near useless in pvm...

Just for one example with short duration and local cooldown no more rooting the Balls at Sleek, is this intended or is pvm just not something FC are taking into consideration?

The plan was to keep the same durations in PVM, but substantially reduce them in PVP, if I read that right.

[Neista]

The plan was to keep the same durations in PVM, but substantially reduce them in PVP, if I read that right.

Thanks, i really hope thats the case

[Weltall]

Balanced except that if for whatever reason after perking SD10, you actually get close to a CC prof you're going to kill them how?

Lets see, which of these CC profs are going to squish if I get close to them:

Agent: nope, never nada, unless FP doc magically runs out the moment I start my alpha, it's highly unlikely this will result in a kill, ESPECIALLY when you consider that because I perked SD10 I no longer have stuns, or for other profs missing big hard hitting perks. Ok, that didn't work. (note, it may work on MA due to stacking init debuffs in other lines, won't work for keeper, won't work for shade, advy is loltastic I don't care)

Trader: NOPE. drained into next week. that won't work.

Crat: Ok, IF you manage to catch a crat by surprise and he doesn't have 5 billion AAD, you might be able to kill him with hotswaps by the time his pets chew you a new *******. for MA's, a possibility. For keepers and shades? LOL NO.

NT: If you manage to break free of his roots, and he doesn't kite you, you might end up with a good fight, although, sheesh, those 10 perks in SD means no stuns, and 2 fewer init debuffs, meaning, whatever "good fight" you were going to have just degraded to: how long till I die. thanks for coming out.


So, Weltall, I appreciate your point, giving up 10 perks to SD in endgame is a lesson in futility so even IF you were to try it, (as you said no-one does, they only perk it up to 4 or whatever) 1. because even if you do resist roots and snares, you'll still not have the static offence or activateable perks to kill your CC opponent. and 2. for all those profs whom CC is not an issue, you are mincemeat.
3. there is far more non-CC profs than CC profs.




Wrong. Most profs who perk SD 10 can't kill anyone or just get facerolled from losing out on huge parts of their defensive toolset.

What is the point of perking SD 10 if you can't kill the people whom you need to get close to to kill?

Sounds like a big ol' catch 22.

???
Did you even read what I wrote? Lemme get this straight... you're telling me I'm wrong but saying the same things I'm saying in a different way? Alright then...


Anyway, that was the point, it's a huge damn sacrifice to perk SD, in all honesty I'd like to see root/snare removal perks added to melee toons in places where they don't have to sacrifice so much.

It's silly that ranged toons like agent/NT/trader/crat/fixer etc have root/snare remover nanos but melee doesn't (except enfs ofc)

[Shrubberyman]

PREAMBULE : I might have, or might have not, posted something at the beginning of the month, that might or might have not been seen by people before it might or might have not been deleted by a moderator. I have no idea. All I know is that if anything was really posted and read by anyone, plz forgive a soul who just struck himself dumb drunk. Thank you.

No, this is what it is. If you sacrifice enough to perk sd10, then you shouldn't be getting rooted much. So you become stronger vs cc profs BUT weaker vs non ccing profs. That is balanced.

No, you already get stronger vs CC profs because on an average, with an Unstunneable and SD10 perked MA, you will resist cc 7 times out of 10, and for the 3 out 10 times it could land you will have the convenient 3 removers attached to SD, not to mention the 100% immunity the last remover also bestows.
Immunities needs to be nerfed, not buffed. One option would have been to cap/lower achievable immunity while triggering a lockout, but FC did not pick that option by the look of it. So the only remaining option is keeping the fabulolous amount of achievable immunity but deny it the ability to trigger a lockout or temporary immunity.

You're seriously acting like all pvpers who have access to SD perk it to 10 which is far from the truth and no I disagree for something as extremely powerful as roots, which gives a massive advantage over melee profs, it needs some sort of secondary defense.

When I fight vs shades it's quite laughable how rootable they are, I can just keep them rooted there, while I'm free to do wtf I like on them at that point. That's what you want for all profs right?


But say shades do perk SD10, now, sure, they'll be hard to root but on the other hand they'll be losing out on essential stuff that makes them viable vs other profs, so all in all it's balanced and as rimorrage said, it's their choice to be stronger vs cc while being vulnerable to other profs.

While it’s true not everyone perks SD, the option is still there and it is a very potent one, and here again I agree with Rimorage that it is a question of choice. If you would rather perk something else, it’s your own problem. It’s already a luxury that you get to have that kind of choice.

You are also losing sight of the scope of the discussion aka post balancing AO, and of the changes already announced and summed up in the OP. No landing CC will be spammable. No landing CC will last more than a handful of seconds. So no, it’s not “what I want for all prof”, hmmkay?

Lastly melee professions, beside their broad access to SD with the exception of enforcers (but they will still have a somehow nerfed Rage), are seemingly getting new tools to offset the range hindrance. Keepers at least are getting a snare every 60s, a tractor beam every 30s, a root every 30s and an aura which remove CCs once every 20s. We also know RS balance is in the work. If anything, adding a too strong immunity to this might just transfom every fight in AO into close combat with swords and guns…

From a shades pov I will say that being "strong" v cc nanos is an invalid response as most people who have cc nanos eat us without even using them. On top of that, shade is completely perk reliant and any perks in SD is a perk sink. Consider that we don't have enough ar to perk most CC profs let alone catch up to them with the silly runspeed cap. Heck, if roots/snares didn't break on hit I would never beat a NT. On top of that, even if we do train SD 10, crats procs still root us and everyone else, if they're willing to spend the extra 10 seconds to spam it a couple times, can root us.

So, to say that this would make it balanced is not correct and in fact the opposite. If roots were this way then there would be no point to play a pvp prof other than a rooting ranged prof as there would be no way to get around them without giving up the ability to kill the CC prof.

We’re speaking about AO after the rebalancing, not as it is now. God, where to start : shade AR and defence will just soar even higher as it is now thx to Not Shade tag removed from token boards, perhaps even from symbiants (not mentioning the infamous breed change which leaves the option of going atrox). Runspeed will have been reworked. Nts won’t have the instant firepower they have now. LE Procs are going bye bye too.

Anyway, that was the point, it's a huge damn sacrifice to perk SD, in all honesty I'd like to see root/snare removal perks added to melee toons in places where they don't have to sacrifice so much.

Hmm, yes, of course. So that CC would be useless, you wouldn’t have to think beyond the FotM cookie cutter setup and you would still benefit from your nearly maxed AR, evades, etc. We could also imagine that CC would be completely removed from the game or just saved for parties and that CCers would just get heals to mope the damage… Awesome idea, uh?

It's silly that ranged toons like agent/NT/trader/crat/fixer etc have root/snare remover nanos but melee doesn't (except enfs ofc)

Now, there, I wouldn’t object much to that, as long as it not instant and cost an arm and a leg in nanopoints.

[Weltall]

While it’s true not everyone perks SD, the option is still there and it is a very potent one, and here again I agree with Rimorage that it is a question of choice. If you would rather perk something else, it’s your own problem. It’s already a luxury that you get to have that kind of choice.

Yeah just like you have the option and luxury to go NR8 and put on a bow and AS around, just because it's possible doesn't mean it's feasible.

Now, there, I wouldn’t object much to that, as long as it not instant and cost an arm and a leg in nanopoints.

Why not? My NT can insta cast his root remover nano at full def and I don't even see my nanopool bar even move slightly when I cast it.

[Shrubberyman]

Yeah just like you have the option and luxury to go NR8 and put on a bow and AS around, just because it's possible doesn't mean it's feasible.

You are overdoing it a lil here comparing NR8 to SD10, aren’t you?
I won’t let myself get started about NR though, there will time for this crusade later. Enough to say SD can’t even remotely be compared to NR. SD isn’t anywhere as stupid as NR and doesn’t change a profession nearly as much as NR does. SD has been part of MAs toolset for like forever and it has been used under a form or another by a great deal of MAs along the years. Just because the current trend is to blindly max AR or Evades at all cost doesn’t justify claiming SD ruins the profession into gimpiness.

Why not? My NT can insta cast his root remover nano at full def and I don't even see my nanopool bar even move slightly when I cast it

Not sure I got your point here, nor that I was really clear. What I did mean was that I wouldn’t object that much to melee getting nano-based removers, as long as they are “slow” and costly stuff to cast. And that it doesn’t come in addition with silly high amounts of immunity and item-based removers.

[Weltall]

You are overdoing it a lil here comparing NR8 to SD10, aren’t you?
I won’t let myself get started about NR though, there will time for this crusade later. Enough to say SD can’t even remotely be compared to NR. SD isn’t anywhere as stupid as NR and doesn’t change a profession nearly as much as NR does. SD has been part of MAs toolset for like forever and it has been used under a form or another by a great deal of MAs along the years.

Seriously, you're just saying oh you have access to it, so it's your problem if you don't perk it, so yes I am comparing it to NR. You think we all just have 10 spare perks we can dump anywhere?

Just because the current trend is to blindly max AR or Evades at all cost doesn’t justify claiming SD ruins the profession into gimpiness.

Do you know the professions well enough to make a statement like that? Do you know what kinds of sacrifices involved there? Do you know why AR or def or whatever is needed?

Not sure I got your point here, nor that I was really clear. What I did mean was that I wouldn’t object that much to melee getting nano-based removers, as long as they are “slow” and costly stuff to cast. And that it doesn’t come in addition with silly high amounts of immunity and item-based removers.

My point is if other profs can insta it at full def with little to no cost to nanopool, why make it difficult for melee?

But yeah if melee were to get (reasonable) nano-based removers, then yeah I wouldn't mind SD going away, I'd actually love to be able to unperk SD tbh.

[ookamitr]

Seriously, you're just saying oh you have access to it, so it's your problem if you don't perk it, so yes I am comparing it to NR. You think we all just have 10 spare perks we can dump anywhere?

I agree with most of the statements but perks are a matter of choice. You can always have 10 spare perks if you decide to really go for a perkline. The fact that you think there aren't means you don't want to sacrifice other skills for the perkline. This doesn't mean you don't have 10 perks to spare, this means you don't want to spend 10 points on that perkline while it could be on another. It's a matter of choice, not impossibility.

[Gridpain]

all this "you can perk SD10" is pretty irrelevant at TL1 to 5... now... should roots / snare be "balanced" with only TL7 concern / options taken into account ?

[Shrubberyman]

Seriously, you're just saying oh you have access to it, so it's your problem if you don't perk it, so yes I am comparing it to NR. You think we all just have 10 spare perks we can dump anywhere?

No, I mean, come on, the comparison just doesn’t hold water. Pre-balancing, the “negative” effects of perking SD in the form of the buffs that you don’t get from another perkline(s) are nowhere near comparable with -8k nanoskills. SD is a viable perkline that can find its place in a persistent setup, whereas NR3 and higher become setups of their own, when they are not just a temporary “casterslolpwn” mode. But as I said already, NR is silly.
Like Millerna implied, there’s one good rule of thumb: players choose their setup with their greater benefit in mind. If they would rather get a few more stuns and dd than put perk in SD for example, it’s because they deem it more useful. This in turn means they consider any issue they might have with CC, secondary.

Do you know the professions well enough to make a statement like that? Do you know what kinds of sacrifices involved there? Do you know why AR or def or whatever is needed?

Keeper I talk from experience, the rest I just picked the explanations in their posts. I am trying hard not to assume stuff and just use whatever material was posted here.

My point is if other profs can insta it at full def with little to no cost to nanopool, why make it difficult for melee?

But yeah if melee were to get (reasonable) nano-based removers, then yeah I wouldn't mind SD going away, I'd actually love to be able to unperk SD tbh.

My perspective was that making it too “easy” to cast would come down to give melee users their own baby Rage. And also that the “traditional” derooters should keep an edge of some kind in this field.
My first thought wasn’t to have a go at SD tbh, even if it might appear otherwise. In itself, SD seems to me pretty ok. I would even have gone as far as proposing Unstunneable and SD being merged into one 8 ranks perkline, with 100/40/40 calm/root/snare capped passive score. What I have a problem with is the stacking of perks, perk specials, gear and buffs which culminates in a close to complete immunity. You would rather trade those for a nano-based removers solution, and if it had happened, I wouldn’t have protested much.

But FC doesn’t seem willing to go either of our ways.
Unstunnable, SD, IEI are there, in the documentation.
MAs did not get a nano-based remover.
We got no mention of an immunity cap that would have made stacking useless passed a threshold.
I don’t know if we will ever agree on the lockout part about immunities, but the choices FC made so far on the CC issue give me that gloomy feeling that we’re gonna have to cope with silly stuff, like very high immunities which will be debuffable by new nanolines (CB-like), or CC nanolines checking only a percentage of immunities…

all this "you can perk SD10" is pretty irrelevant at TL1 to 5... now... should roots / snare be "balanced" with only TL7 concern / options taken into account ?

If i'm not mistaken, they will be nerfed in duration and spammability over the board. I agree though that the issue of the triggering of a cooldown or lockout on a successful Resistance check at lower levels (and as such at lower amounts of Resistance) wouldn't create the same kind of potential unbalance as it would at TL7.

[Shrubberyman]

Gonna update OP with what we now know :

TL7 Martial Artists:
Nano based resistance to roots/snare (self): 0%
Potential perk+nano based snare/root resistance (self): 45% snares, 70% roots
No nano based root/snare remover.
Fear’s snare: 6s duration, 150s cooldown, 50% NR Check

TL7 Keepers:
Nano based resistance to roots/snare (self): 20% (Loss of 15%)
Potential perk+nano based snare/root resistance (self): 65%
Nano based root/snare remover: once every 20s
Root: 5s duration, 65s cooldown, 50% NR check
Snare: 8s duration, 30s cooldown, 50% Evade Cl Check
Other: Tractor Beam, 30s cooldown, 50% NR check

TL7 Enforcers:
Nano based resistance to roots/snare (self): 0%
Potential perk+nano based snare/root resistance (self): 0%
Nano-based root/snare remover: once every 10s (including all fixers’ CC, but seemingly NOT including Keepers’ root)
Noteworthy: the 1200 NR mod is a somewhat efficient (if uncertain) defense against CC.
Fear’s snare: 5s duration, 160s cooldown, 50% NR Check

TL7 Fixers:
Nano based resistance to roots/snare (self): 15% (Loss of 10%)
Potential perk+nano based snare/root resistance (self): 60%
Nano based root remover (self): once every 20s
Nano based snare remover (self): once every 30s
Noteworthy 1: in the weird department, fixers’ removers are just marginally better than keeper’s aura, and still can’t compare to Rage’s efficiency.
Best AoE snare: 10s duration, 20s cooldown, 90% NR check, 25% break chance
Best snare: 15s duration, 10s cooldown, 80% NR check, 25% break chance
Best root: 7s duration, 10s cooldown, 90% NR check, 25% break chance
Noteworthy 2: in theory, fixers could keep someone perma-snared with their single snare, as long as the opponent has no mean to remove it and as long as no one hits the target. Intended?
Noteworthy 3: still in theory, as snares and roots don’t seem to share the same cooldowns, someone facing a fixer could be rooted 7s, then snared for -2k RS a few seconds before being rerooted, rince and repeat.

Excepted if FC did not include some information, it looks like they took the option of an attacker-side local cooldown (aka no more “crowd” control for those without AoE tools), counting down from the end of casting (aka Resistance and NR rulz). AoE snares and single snares being in the same line (145) I guess they will lock each other out.
Durations are shorter than short; I hope item-based removers (FMs, etc) can’t make it through the balancing without a drastic mauling with a 2-hd nerfbat, at least in the skill lock department.

(Some assertions here are based on the hypothesis that nano-based snares and roots will share the same mechanisms across the professions)

[Weltall]

Are they gonna remove the enf 20% root/stun resist HUD thingo?

[Shrubberyman]

I'm afraid items will be reviewed last, which means we prolly won't have any information for a long time.

Anyway, I try to stick to the actuality of the balancing, and as such listed only what factual information we got and what can be reasonably assumed. Hence the mentions of "nano based" or "perk+nano".

[Loucretia]

Before deciding on the mechanics of any changed system of roots/snares in PvP some thought should be given to what they are supposed to do.

The original concept years ago, was that gimpy ranged toons with rubbish defences were able to keep some distance from melee toons that would otherwise splat them in seconds.

This concept still has some validity at lower TLs, at TL7 its pretty debateable.

Too often at present, roots and snares are used to keep melee toons perma-rooted while ranged toons pick them off from a distance with zero risk. All these invulnerabilities, resistances, items etc that some proffs have, are a response to this lame mechanic.

In addition, it is pretty unconvincing to argue that at TL7 ranged toons have any real need to root melee, as most have a reasonable chance toe to toe nowadays, with a few exceptions.

I dont know what the ideal solution is for both sides, but my first guess would be to make roots/snares very short - a few seconds, and place a lockout on the target for a longer period. Placing a lockout on the caster allows 2 or more casters to get back to the perma rooting situation. You could also dispense with FMs, removers etc as long as the duration was short enough.

One of the concepts behind a game is supposed to be fun...... and not just fun for one group at the expense of frustration for others. While it may be fun to root toons and blow them to ... whatever, it isnt fun to be on the receiveing end.

So if your concept for roots and snares is to keep them as unbalanced as they are right now, or even more one-sided from some of the suggestions here, I hope FC implement something more balanced.