Mbss

[Kazeran]

I apologize, with the quality of messages you have on these forums I feel I cannot spare the time to follow all of your "wisdom" on AS pistol at the moment.

And what you don't get is that Noobas doesn't only say "nerf AS on everyone except agents" he points out "every class has a traditional special attacks / perks they are known with, so these professions who are skilled at that particular form of attack should gain access to more lethal forms of this said special attack / nano / perk, whatever.

This ultimately also means they'd provide some change that'd give Crat a certain edge as well. This is why I don't believe you see the bigger picture. You take a huge idea to something as specific as "nerf AS", and it is not it.

What's worse is you do not realize that you didn't get the main point of this topic but still went on to flame the op.

Iam pretty sure Crattey understood that. It looks like you didn't get Crattey's point that this can't happen until toolsets are fixed so that AS is unneeded.

Aside from that noobas examples are horribly twisted to put things in his favor instead of giving real examples that actually occur in the game. As its been said before until toolsets are fixed, this won't fly.

[Techmagos]

another one of these threads? its like the same people keep posting the same tripe over and over, unaware of what happened the last time.

please try to remember, disenfranchised melee players, that all the ranged/AS rebalancing is not done, and that your incessant forum spamming will do nothing it hasnt done already.

[MachSchau]

Brain storming is cool, but some things are over the top.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

Iam pretty sure Crattey understood that. It looks like you didn't get Crattey's point that this can't happen until toolsets are fixed so that AS is unneeded.

Aside from that noobas examples are horribly twisted to put things in his favor instead of giving real examples that actually occur in the game. As its been said before until toolsets are fixed, this won't fly.

not sure what you're talking about here jax, as, last I checked, MA's using hotswap bow use it to be fast. adding a 5second delay prior to the first AS being fired for aiming and loading isn't a nerf?

The problem is the mechanics. AS in general is super fudged, and it needs serious fixing.

Arri proposed some similar ideas, such as options on weapons and different bonuses in different positions, which I completely agree with.

I also think concealment checks shouldn't be blown on an Aimed shot using bow.

and I think that using crawl or kneel should provide higher crit rates to agents for serious sniping.

These are awesome suggestions and they have merit.

To crattey: I'm hearing what you're saying: Mck says it's OP'd and all that.

But crattey, is it true? If it's not true, I dare you to find me a reliable statistic on the number of PVPing advies/docs/engies/crats who AREN'T using the AS pistol.

If you can find me 20% that AREN'T using it, I'll concede that it's not OP'd.

Just for reference, if you don't think it's OP'd compared to teh rest of your options, why don't you lead by example and show an alternative setup that works equally well?

One sec, though, I do read your posts. You said: IF there was another option... so, lets step back a second, you say it's the only option, and I say, find a comparable one. So, what that actually means is: there is no other option which even compares, HENCE: the AS pistol is superiour for PVP, therefore, by all relevant standards, it is overpowered.

Now that it's established that it's OP'd, try to contribute to the discussion, instead of defending a position that everyone and his dog knows is fraught with bias. And, yes, an Aimed shot MBSS on the AS pistol IS a good idea. You find me a futuristic pistol with the same ability to hit a moving target from max range as a sniper, and I will agree that pistols with sniping ability is a good idea.

[Kazeran]

No problem, except, last time I checked, doctors, engineers, bureaucrats and adventurers were better at OTHER things than aiming pistols. Furthermore, how in HELL did someone ever think that a doctor who was busy casting 100k nanobot heals was capable of achieving the same kind of skill a trained sniper has, and subsequently achieving the percentage of landed hits via the aimed shot attack as a TRAINED SNIPER!?

You seem to forget to add that ICH is rarely, if ever used in pvp. That the doctors AS is a huge joke even with the pistol, the perks are more dangerous, and when they do cap its fairly rare.

Thats the horribly twisted example part.

not sure what you're talking about here jax, as, last I checked, MA's using hotswap bow use it to be fast. adding a 5second delay prior to the first AS being fired for aiming and loading isn't a nerf?

The problem is the mechanics. AS in general is super fudged, and it needs serious fixing.

I never said anything about MA's but ok....

Your not seeing the problem is the 2nd part. AS, as retarded as it is, is needed by support profs due to lack of a reliable toolset in pvp. Fix the toolsets and most will drop AS.

[Marinegent]

Everyone argues all sorts of things on the forums, but something most people dont understand is that logic does - and doesn't work for all arguments at the same time.

The logic needs to work within the spectrum of the game, while being almost.. out of the box at the same time.

In real life a medic isn't shooting the same way as a trained riflemen. In a game, it almost doesn't make sense either that a doctor should shoot in the same way as an agent can - and really they shouldnt.. but it's a game with a specific mechanic.. so they do..

The only way to really force anything is to profession lock things - or add static bonuses and/or debuffs to certain professions. Doctors have a -200 to AAO or something like that (just an example.. dont go nuts..) and you know..

It's all so difficult to reason this, to the point where you can't use normal logic and you just have to modify things based on the context in the way things perform in the game.

If someone is overpowered, change it. If someone is underpowered, change it. It's the only way you'll get anything done.. Concrete or black and white scenarios or thought processes just don't work.

[Gunfytr]

AS, as retarded as it is, is needed by support profs due to lack of a reliable toolset in pvp. Fix the toolsets and most will drop AS.

No they wont, they will used their improved toolset AND the AS pistol.

[Kazeran]

In real life a medic isn't shooting the same way as a trained riflemen. In a game, it almost doesn't make sense either that a doctor should shoot in the same way as an agent can - and really they shouldnt.. but it's a game with a specific mechanic.. so they do..

The only way to really force anything is to profession lock things - or add static bonuses and/or debuffs to certain professions. Doctors have a -200 to AAO or something like that (just an example.. dont go nuts..) and you know..

Comparing a game to real life doesn't make sense either seeing how most profs in AO either don't exists or have little to no resemblance of anything close to their real life counterparts.

Doctors already have the lowest AR in game as well as evades so your example would either hurt the prof, or be completely worthless. Yes iam aware its just an example however i am very against prof locking anything unless it will make said prof completely OP.

No they wont, they will used their improved toolset AND the AS pistol.

Oh really? As much as support profs have to give up in order to have a decent AS iam sure alot of people would gladly drop AS to reap the benefits of no longer having to sacrifice large amounts of other skills in order to do decent damage in pvp. If they want to keep AS and everything you have to give up in order to obtain a decent AS skill so be it. Its part of the game, its a choice they make. FC will have to make sure that fix toolsets and AS combined won't be stupidly OP. Though i know QQ whine whine AS pistol nerf plx (I want it nerfed 2) will still come up a simple fix, after toolsets are changed and fixed is to simply raise the amount of AS needed to cap the recharge.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

You seem to forget to add that ICH is rarely, if ever used in pvp. That the doctors AS is a huge joke even with the pistol, the perks are more dangerous, and when they do cap its fairly rare.

Thats the horribly twisted example part.



I never said anything about MA's but ok....

Your not seeing the problem is the 2nd part. AS, as retarded as it is, is needed by support profs due to lack of a reliable toolset in pvp. Fix the toolsets and most will drop AS.

No bro. AS is not "NEEDED" by support profs.

Since when has a doctor ever been in "NEED" of aimed shot?

Since doctors became the new offensive weapon of choice?

you're full to the brim of chocolate fudge man.

Doctors have buttloads of options, have plenty of methods of survival. why do you think they need the best method of killling as well? Are you that bad at using your doctor toolset that you can't kill someone without AS? Did you not get your top DOT's? did you forget that normals do damage? Did you forget that you can stack malp? Pray tell, man, why do doc's "NEED" Aimed shot?

Enough about doctors, I have a feeling you won't be able to answer that with any kind of reliability.

Which other support prof were you refering to then? Was it the adventurer?
Let me just check my latest "I've been chain killed by a wolf with pistols counter" hmm, 8 billion. Yep, I think advies need Aimed shot pistol too, because, it's not enough to have the best defences in game, they also need to be able to roflwtfstomp you every time you zone into BS as well, and everyone knows if they haven't chainkilled you 9 billion times, they aren't OP'd. right?

Ok, advies maybe not the best example?

How about engineers?
hmm, ok, they got pets who can OD a shade and a MA solo, and regularly hit fixers with all evade perks up. Hmm, lets soo, the IMEP pistol probably isn't OP'd enough, I mean, they only get like 3800 effective AR with it and lord knows they can't perk anyone since their perks only check 80%. Yea, and then theres the remodulator, which just sucks ass as a weapon... yea, engi's definitly need AS. I mean, if they didn't have the AS pistol, it would probably be an even fight against some professions, and who wants that?

Ok, well, clearly we haven't found an example yet, so, maybe you were refering to crats.
Lets see what crattey says? Crattey says: if you take away my AS pistol, I'm going emo. maybe crats need a different weapon selection, but, they already pump out top damage in PVM, and auras are immensely helpful in PVP, not to mention fear, stuns, ok, hmm, yea, clearly they need AS pistol, because there just isn't enough love for crats.

Ok, that pretty much covers it for support profs, so, which one was it again that "NEEDED" the AS?

[Marinegent]

Comparing a game to real life doesn't make sense either seeing how most profs in AO either don't exists or have little to no resemblance of anything close to their real life counterparts.

You misunderstood.

I said those things are it is 2 sides of logic that people use very often here. However neither holds much merit (the former having none at all) because of how complex these things can get. Looking at things in-context of the current state of the game is really the only way to do it correctly in most cases.

[Gunfytr]

No bro. AS is not "NEEDED" by support profs.

Since when has a doctor ever been in "NEED" of aimed shot?

Since doctors became the new offensive weapon of choice?

you're full to the brim of chocolate fudge man.

Doctors have buttloads of options, have plenty of methods of survival. why do you think they need the best method of killling as well? Are you that bad at using your doctor toolset that you can't kill someone without AS? Did you not get your top DOT's? did you forget that normals do damage? Did you forget that you can stack malp? Pray tell, man, why do doc's "NEED" Aimed shot?

Enough about doctors, I have a feeling you won't be able to answer that with any kind of reliability.

Which other support prof were you refering to then? Was it the adventurer?
Let me just check my latest "I've been chain killed by a wolf with pistols counter" hmm, 8 billion. Yep, I think advies need Aimed shot pistol too, because, it's not enough to have the best defences in game, they also need to be able to roflwtfstomp you every time you zone into BS as well, and everyone knows if they haven't chainkilled you 9 billion times, they aren't OP'd. right?

Ok, advies maybe not the best example?

How about engineers?
hmm, ok, they got pets who can OD a shade and a MA solo, and regularly hit fixers with all evade perks up. Hmm, lets soo, the IMEP pistol probably isn't OP'd enough, I mean, they only get like 3800 effective AR with it and lord knows they can't perk anyone since their perks only check 80%. Yea, and then theres the remodulator, which just sucks ass as a weapon... yea, engi's definitly need AS. I mean, if they didn't have the AS pistol, it would probably be an even fight against some professions, and who wants that?

Ok, well, clearly we haven't found an example yet, so, maybe you were refering to crats.
Lets see what crattey says? Crattey says: if you take away my AS pistol, I'm going emo. maybe crats need a different weapon selection, but, they already pump out top damage in PVM, and auras are immensely helpful in PVP, not to mention fear, stuns, ok, hmm, yea, clearly they need AS pistol, because there just isn't enough love for crats.

Ok, that pretty much covers it for support profs, so, which one was it again that "NEEDED" the AS?

Dude....that was actually pretty good!

[crattey]

But crattey, is it true? If it's not true, I dare you to find me a reliable statistic on the number of PVPing advies/docs/engies/crats who AREN'T using the AS pistol.

If you can find me 20% that AREN'T using it, I'll concede that it's not OP'd.

Just for reference, if you don't think it's OP'd compared to teh rest of your options, why don't you lead by example and show an alternative setup that works equally well?

One sec, though, I do read your posts. You said: IF there was another option... so, lets step back a second, you say it's the only option, and I say, find a comparable one. So, what that actually means is: there is no other option which even compares, HENCE: the AS pistol is superiour for PVP, therefore, by all relevant standards, it is overpowered.

Now that it's established that it's OP'd.....

Again, I think our minds don't work alike.

I dare you to find a keeper that doesn't use a sword. I dare you to find a NT that doesn't use the cyberdeck.
Every profession has it's favoured endgame PvP weaponry. The fact crats now have one that stands out over the tl5 bows/shotties we've been using for years doesn't mean it's OP.

People always favour one weapon over another, it's the nature of MMORPGs. Your reasoning on this subject is, as always, almost alien to me. Especially since you fail to see the corollary yourself. Your conclusion also suggest this means all end-game equipment must be OP.

[Weltall]

As usual, it's 'OP this, OP that'. It's not. If crats and engis didn't have access to AS, they might as well not bother PvP at all. It's required, not OP'd.
.

Yeah right.

Well you can keep your AS as a crat but being able to get 3100-3200 AR plus those pistol perks plus master's bidding plus nukes plus that overpowered GRM root plus AS is retarded. That's 3840 AR on those perks which is beyond stupid.

Lets not even start on engi pets which hit through dof+ es like nothing plus they got master's bidding.

But yeah without AS engis/crats will be oh so gimp that they 'might as well not pvp' sure

[Kazeran]

No bro. AS is not "NEEDED" by support profs.

Since when has a doctor ever been in "NEED" of aimed shot?

Since doctors became the new offensive weapon of choice?

you're full to the brim of chocolate fudge man.

Doctors have buttloads of options, have plenty of methods of survival. why do you think they need the best method of killling as well? Are you that bad at using your doctor toolset that you can't kill someone without AS? Did you not get your top DOT's? did you forget that normals do damage? Did you forget that you can stack malp? Pray tell, man, why do doc's "NEED" Aimed shot?

Enough about doctors, I have a feeling you won't be able to answer that with any kind of reliability.

I'll only respond about doctors because thats the only prof I play.

Since when has a doctor ever been in "NEED" of aimed shot?

Since when has any prof been in need of doing reliable damage? The answer would be always. As provides that for doctors, no other part of our toolset does.

Since doctors became the new offensive weapon of choice?

Since you thought it was. Sorry to say but no one has ever said doctors should be an offensive powerhouse. Even with AS a doctor isn't near the damage of the majroity of other profs. This would be lumped together with your horrible examples nooba.

you're full to the brim of chocolate fudge man.

I believe your angry.

Doctors have buttloads of options, have plenty of methods of survival. why do you think they need the best method of killling as well?

Our only method of survival is our active defense. We have no passive defense unlike every other prof. What does a profs survivability have to do with its weapon choice? Nothing connects the to. AS is used because it allows doctors to have a constant source of reliable damage that no other part of our toolset provides because of out lack of NR, and 100% check on every offensive nano we have.

Are you that bad at using your doctor toolset that you can't kill someone without AS?

I don't even use AS, or pistols for that matter. Your heads obvious up places if you think I do.

Did you not get your top DOT's?

I have all my top DoTs. You seem to not understand that Dots are just that though. Damage over time. I don't know if you've pvped lately but its very fast pace and anything doing damage over time isn't much help. AS lets us do insant damage though so we can keep up with everyone else.

did you forget that normals do damage?

Did you think doctors have 3.5k+ ar? I have 2111 AR. Sorry to tell you but with that amount of AR you rarely hit people with normal hits. Let alone perk anyone outside of pistol perks. You know what though, AS lets me hit people unless they have blockers ofc.

Did you forget that you can stack malp?

Did you know that to be able to cast malp we have to not be healing, so we have to give up our defense in order to use our offense? I believe AS gives us a way to work around this.

Pray tell, man, why do doc's "NEED" Aimed shot?

Don't pray srry, I gave you examples and reasons.

[Moonbolt]

tbh i never figured doctors as a class that should be able to solo other classes well... since their main function is to heal people.

[techprince]

Burst Cycle, Weapon recharge these things are getting counted in equations. A good example would be onehander doing better as dmg than as pistol, simply because of its recharge. So basically either equations must be changed or all those weapons having these variables.

About as pistol, well most of the support profs dont get higher as skills than agent or ranged adv so usually does less dmg than agents. I would say make their toolset effective and they will stop using as, who wants to loose serious amount of other modifiers just for as?

[Rurounin]

The classic example of this was the advent of the Dshark. Granted, Soldiers were an underpowered class for a while with very few good weapon choices after the Superior Perennium Blaster, but, the Dshark was the first of several VASTLY overpowered weapons that changed the game for the worse.

The problem with the Dshark is that every dipstick with enough skill to equip this gun, INSTANTLY gained a capped recharge full auto special. This caused massive ripples in the AO community; in fact, the ripples were more like a tidal wave. The number of soldiers rolled as soon as the D-shark was released is a testement to it.

Why was this a problem? The problem is that there is no balance associated with the equipping of an overpowered piece of equipment.

Prior to the release of the D-shark, soldiers needed to think hard about where they wanted to go, and in what way they could achieve thier goals. Some soldiers opted to stick with the SPB, others chose the higher min damage sacrosanct Blaster, others chose to go with the triple special Kry'zoch carbine.

If you go with the carbine, you get bigger min damage another special but slower FA's, if you go with the SPB, you get faster FA recharge, but lower min damage. The sacrosanct blaster was often overlooked, because the attack time was large, and people couldn't understand that it would be good damage, also, radiation damage type was relatively unsupported. There was Balance because there was no clear choice.

Just had to point out.

A lot of soldiers switched to the OFAB Shark MK 6 after the release of LE, dreadloch weapons wasn't added until some time later, the OFAB Shark was more than enough in my opinion and was not that hard to cap at 220 with proper gear. I actually never got the D-Shark on my soldier back then and I didn't suffer the slightest bit from not getting it (I had a ton of fun in PvP just after getting the OFAB Shark on).

Weapons should be more like how Envy is for soldiers now, and how the OFAB Shark used to be just after LE, they should be cappable but should never instantly be so, it should take some work and create a goal for the player. The biggest problem with that is however that sticking to an older weapon could produce more damage from capped specials.

Assault Rifle was mostly used as a swap in before LE, our attack rating with Assault Rifles just didn't make it a good enough option for PvP, most used EC3 and then swapped in an Assault Rifle for FA+Burst against low evaders.

Other than that I agree with the post, but I do also think that instead of capping specials they should receive something else that can be used properly with the professions toolset in mind.

[Brofist]

How about engineers?
hmm, ok, they got pets who can OD a shade and a MA solo, and regularly hit fixers with all evade perks up. Hmm, lets soo, the IMEP pistol probably isn't OP'd enough, I mean, they only get like 3800 effective AR with it and lord knows they can't perk anyone since their perks only check 80%.

How could you get so much wrong in such a small sentence?

[ookamitr]

How could you get so much wrong in such a small sentence?

if you don't think engineer is overpowered in pvp right now against almost all classes, you either don't pvp often or you don't know how to use your toolset in pvp adequately.

[Gunfytr]

if you don't think engineer is overpowered in pvp right now against almost all classes, you either don't pvp often or you don't know how to use your toolset in pvp adequately.

This.