Mbss

**McKnuckleSamwich** · Jul 2nd, 2010, 04:22:47

Jax: what makes you think that doctors are entitled to the top offensive special in game, while professions that RELY on killing their targets to survive are not able to use it? If doctors have one of the best active or passive defences in game, why should they have the top offensive specials also? Or, have the top offensive special without a concession in setup...?

Crattey: Find me a keeper sword that has SA on it, and is not in use by every single keeper who PVPs, and I'll tell you your AS pistol is "standard endgame equipment" as opposed to OP'd endgame equipment.

**Kazeran** · Jul 2nd, 2010, 05:03:45

Originally Posted by McKnuckleSamwich

Jax: what makes you think that doctors are entitled to the top offensive special in game, while professions that RELY on killing their targets to survive are not able to use it? If doctors have one of the best active or passive defences in game, why should they have the top offensive specials also? Or, have the top offensive special without a concession in setup...?

First off, doctors have no passive defense. Our only defense is active and when in use we have to give up all forms of offense.

Secondly every prof in this game is able to use AS. Every player has that choice. So please tell me the prof that relies on killing their target first but can't use AS is. Even NT's can, although they don't need it at all. (inb4 NR8)

Who said doctors were "entitled" to AS? We make sacrifices to get a decent AS. We have nothing in our toolset that supports it. Stop putting words into peoples mouths.

You seem to have forgot that AS is getting nerfed. You also seem to have forgotten to give us your reasons on everything. So tell me nooba. Why shouldn't a doctor be able to use AS, or anyone else for that matter. Why do other profs have defenses that are just as good if not better then our own but have a much stronger offensive toolset? Why is it ok for non-support profs to have a great offense and a good, somethings great defense as well but its wrong for a support prof to have a great defense and a good to great offense?

Also, I believe you use the word "concession" wrong. Doesn't sound right in the sentence...

**Brofist** · Jul 2nd, 2010, 05:25:13

Originally Posted by ookamitr

if you don't think engineer is overpowered in pvp right now against almost all classes, you either don't pvp often or you don't know how to use your toolset in pvp adequately.

I think you missed the point.

Pets miss Fixers a ton and they are easily kiteable.

It's the AMEP not the IMEP.

3800 effective AR is a number pulled right out of his ass. I have around 3200 AR and there is room for improvement but I am in more of an HP setup and the extra 25% AR on AMEP (which comes out to around 500 AR) does not count as AAO for perk checking sakes.

But regardless Engineers do do well in PvP. But that was not the point.

**McKnuckleSamwich** · Jul 2nd, 2010, 05:33:39

Originally Posted by Kazeran

You seem to have forgot that AS is getting nerfed. You also seem to have forgotten to give us your reasons on everything. So tell me nooba. Why shouldn't a doctor be able to use AS, or anyone else for that matter. Why do other profs have defenses that are just as good if not better then our own but have a much stronger offensive toolset? Why is it ok for non-support profs to have a great offense and a good, somethings great defense as well but its wrong for a support prof to have a great defense and a good to great offense?

Also, I believe you use the word "concession" wrong. Doesn't sound right in the sentence...

I'm not forgetting AS is getting nerfed. But, I want to provide constructive accounts of AS prior to the balance such that the when the game is rebalanced, the balanced mechanisms provide opportunity to the profs who need them and are beneficial to their professions toolset, while professions who DON'T need them are unable to take advantage of it's inate benefits, thereby reaping rewards which WEREN'T meant for them.

As for your questions: Doctors should be "allowed" to use it, but, they shouldn't have it handed to them on a silver platter. imo, a Doc using AS is effing scary. if a doc wants to use it, he should have to make a custom setup for it.

"Why do other profs have defenses that are just as good if not better then our own but have a much stronger offensive toolset?" please, bro, ask around, and find out which prof is the hardest to take down 1-1.

"Why is it ok for non-support profs to have a great offense and a good, somethings great defense as well but its wrong for a support prof to have a great defense and a good to great offense?" Why you want the game to be an OP race? this is exactly what causes powercreep. powercreep ruins games. Most people who play AO want balance; not: gief me moar PWR! I want PEW PEW and TRIPLES! because that RUINS the experience.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but, balance>> 4 OP'd classes+8 UP'd classes

**Kazeran** · Jul 2nd, 2010, 05:41:24

Well damn nooba, sure as hell could of fooled me. You wanting balances? Pretty sure i've seen several NERF AS NERF AS NERF AS NERF AS threads from you. Also no. Its a choice to use AS if you want it even if its against your toolset. Should it be harder to use if it doesn't go with said toolset? Yes, and currently it is.

When did AS get handed to doctors on a silver platter? Sure AS pistol was a nice toy, but it wasn't for doctors only. Doctors still have troubles getting AS to get it on, let alone more AS skill to ensure decent AS.

Your not serious are you? That question will have a different answer for any prof. Hell it can vary from person to person.

I wasn't aware that asking to be given the same chance as other profs was asking for things to be OP.

**McKnuckleSamwich** · Jul 2nd, 2010, 06:04:24

Originally Posted by Kazeran

Well damn nooba, sure as hell could of fooled me. You wanting balances? Pretty sure i've seen several NERF AS NERF AS NERF AS NERF AS threads from you. Also no. Its a choice to use AS if you want it even if its against your toolset. Should it be harder to use if it doesn't go with said toolset? Yes, and currently it is.

When did AS get handed to doctors on a silver platter? Sure AS pistol was a nice toy, but it wasn't for doctors only. Doctors still have troubles getting AS to get it on, let alone more AS skill to ensure decent AS.

Your not serious are you? That question will have a different answer for any prof. Hell it can vary from person to person.

I wasn't aware that asking to be given the same chance as other profs was asking for things to be OP.

Holy crap man you're treading a thin line. Yes AS needs a nerf, it's getting nerfed, so, if you don't think it should, you're clearly in the very small minority.
You are clearly not thinking straight mate, I've bolded your post so that others can lol at it the same as I am.

When did doc's get AS handed to them on a silver platter, well, lets see, I don't recall the patch, but here is what arrived on that platter, in case you were wondering: http://auno.org/ao/db.php?id=281506

"I wasn't aware that asking to be given the same chance as other profs was asking for things to be OP."
Now you know. If it's OP'd for crats, engies, and advies, what makes you think it's not OP'd for doctors?

If you're still clear as to why races to OP'dness are not good for the game, re-read my last post or this thread, where I talk about it exactly: http://forums.anarchy-online.com/sho...ht=power+creep.

**crattey** · Jul 2nd, 2010, 06:49:38

4 OP'd classes and 8UP'd? How about enforcers, NTs, traders? They seem to be doing rather well without the AS pistol. As do soldiers. And agents.

Man, I think psychologists would have a field day with you. A paper on 'the keeper syndrome' should make for an interesting read.
You do realize the game is now actually more balanced than pre-LE, right? Before LE there were only a few professions who needed to bother with PvP, because professions like your keeper were practically immortal and could wtfpwn most classes in seconds. You just seem unable to cope with the fact that keepers are no longer at the top of the food chain.

You are going so over the top with your whining it's making you look incredibly pathetic.

**McKnuckleSamwich** · Jul 2nd, 2010, 07:23:03

Originally Posted by crattey

4 OP'd classes and 8UP'd? How about enforcers, NTs, traders? They seem to be doing rather well without the AS pistol. As do soldiers. And agents.

Man, I think psychologists would have a field day with you. A paper on 'the keeper syndrome' should make for an interesting read.
You do realize the game is now actually more balanced than pre-LE, right? Before LE there were only a few professions who needed to bother with PvP, because professions like your keeper were practically immortal and could wtfpwn most classes in seconds. You just seem unable to cope with the fact that keepers are no longer at the top of the food chain.

You are going so over the top with your whining it's making you look incredibly pathetic.

your inability to observe the obvious might threaten your very livelihood each time you step onto the street. My keeper is 170. ARe you sure that it was TL5 keepers that were walking all over everyone else?

For the record, I chose to play keeper when they were the HARDEST to play. Right after LE came out I rolled one, because I wanted a challenge. Thats what I do. I don't play FotM's; thats for whiny kids like yourself who roll a crat and can't get it to work unless they load up on the OP'd items. I'm sure you were blessing the forums with your verbal diarhea for weeks as soon as the stun procs were removed citing obvious maligned intentions of FC as the root cause of Crat downfall etc.

Maybe you need to talk about context when you make sweeping generalizations such as "the game is more balanced now than pre-LE"... so, what context were you talking about?

Back on topic, since you're so obviously a crat pro, why don't you enlighten us about how your toolset needs an improvement if the AS pistol is removed?

Clearly, the resistance you're showing isn't hollow?

**crattey** · Jul 2nd, 2010, 07:34:34

Originally Posted by McKnuckleSamwich

your inability to observe the obvious might threaten your very livelihood each time you step onto the street. My keeper is 170. ARe you sure that it was TL5 keepers that were walking all over everyone else?

Originally Posted by McKnuckleSamwich

Doctors have buttloads of options, have plenty of methods of survival. why do you think they need the best method of killling as well? Are you that bad at using your doctor toolset that you can't kill someone without AS? Did you not get your top DOT's? did you forget that normals do damage? Did you forget that you can stack malp?

...

How about engineers?
hmm, ok, they got pets who can OD a shade and a MA solo, and regularly hit fixers with all evade perks up. Hmm, lets soo, the IMEP pistol probably isn't OP'd enough, I mean, they only get like 3800 effective AR with it and lord knows they can't perk anyone since their perks only check 80%. Yea, and then theres the remodulator, which just sucks ass as a weapon...

.......

Ok, well, clearly we haven't found an example yet, so, maybe you were refering to crats.
Lets see what crattey says? Crattey says: if you take away my AS pistol, I'm going emo. maybe crats need a different weapon selection, but, they already pump out top damage in PVM, and auras are immensely helpful in PVP, not to mention fear, stuns, ok, hmm, yea, clearly they need AS pistol, because there just isn't enough love for crats.

Doesn't seem to me you're talking about tl5. Stop embarrassing yourself. You have zero credibility as it is, do you really think people don't realize how full of crap you are?

**crattey** · Jul 2nd, 2010, 07:47:22

Originally Posted by McKnuckleSamwich

whiny kids like yourself

**ookamitr** · Jul 2nd, 2010, 08:36:48

Guys can't you see that the ability to use AS by all classes seems like a problem in the balance that we are all talking about? Rather than looking at his views as just another AS based topic maybe we could advocate before the said rebalance for Funcom to consider buffing profession toolsets such that they stick with their traditional offensive arsenal rather than providing everyone with an as gun of their own. Surely you must also see something not quite right in the way of balance that everybody has to have something that fires AS to pvp?

**McKnuckleSamwich** · Jul 2nd, 2010, 09:18:17

Originally Posted by crattey

Doesn't seem to me you're talking about tl5. Stop embarrassing yourself. You have zero credibility as it is, do you really think people don't realize how full of crap you are?

an open admission youre wrong? I never thought i'd see the day. Crattey, you're in danger of becoming a solid debater!

congratulations.

On to other matters, I'm not embarrassing myself, I'm embarrassing you, but, you're too thick headed to see it.

Remember the old saying: "better to leave the mouth shut and have them think I'm a fool, than open it and remove all doubt"? You perform well son!

Before you make me quote others in your return to ignorant grace, I suggest you read what you wrote, so that you may see your folly. Otherwise, lets get back on topic and instead of conjecture and attempts at slander, maybe you can provide something useful to the discussion?

sincerely, this time, if you will?

**Josephina** · Jul 2nd, 2010, 12:30:55

Originally Posted by ookamitr

Guys can't you see that the ability to use AS by all classes seems like a problem in the balance that we are all talking about? Rather than looking at his views as just another AS based topic maybe we could advocate before the said rebalance for Funcom to consider buffing profession toolsets such that they stick with their traditional offensive arsenal rather than providing everyone with an as gun of their own. Surely you must also see something not quite right in the way of balance that everybody has to have something that fires AS to pvp?

Many people see it as a bad thing that so many professions (or players of certain professions who don't have the right items yet) have to rely on AS to be competitive. But nerfing "the great equalizer", without redesigning the game in such a way that evey profession can be competive without that equalizer, would be a very bad move imo. That discussion is also probably as old as this forum (not this subforum, but the entire AO forum).

Also, am I the only one who thinks the original post in this thread is completely illegible nonsense? Comparing a desert reed with the AS mechanic? Portraying doctor AS to be as good agent AS? The "Infinite Aimed Shot Skill Max Benefit"??? What a load of drivel really.

**agentwolve** · Jul 2nd, 2010, 13:27:06

Sounds good if MA's, advys and enforcers receive a cap on there SA but not shades.

also fixers should have uncapped burst ect

**Soliartist** · Jul 2nd, 2010, 13:52:50

Clearly.

P.S: The Lust of the Xan has been tweaked to a higher performance.
Damn, it ain't said that it's been tweaked to its HIGHEST performance yet, something terrible is bound to happen !

**Theonora** · Jul 2nd, 2010, 15:05:27

Originally Posted by McKnuckleSamwich

No problem, except, last time I checked, doctors, engineers, bureaucrats and adventurers were better at OTHER things than aiming pistols.

Your argument falls down a bit here. Adventurers are, in fact, pistol specialists. Specifically, adventurers are the dual-wielding specialists, be it pistols or 1he weapons. Engineers also, massive pistol buffs. Crats have them too, iirc. Of course, engis and crats are also pet profs, so that brings in an entirely different element to the discussions -- but advies have a strong argument to excel in their pistol skills.

As far as the specials go, clearly our outstanding skill is supposed to be fling shot, but we have buffs for burst and aimed shot as well. Not Agent level buffs, clearly, but the tendency is there.

If you want to argue about the overpoweredness of the aimed shot and the 80% def check, I'm there with you. You'll notice that the ranged advies who have been so for a long time (not the FOTM, jump on the OP bandwagon ones) never wanted an aimed shot pistol to begin with. (Or, I shall amend, most didn't.)

But the whole "they aren't supposed to use pistols that well" argument doesn't do it for me. We clearly ARE.

**Kazeran** · Jul 2nd, 2010, 16:04:34

Originally Posted by McKnuckleSamwich

Holy crap man you're treading a thin line. Yes AS needs a nerf, it's getting nerfed, so, if you don't think it should, you're clearly in the very small minority.
You are clearly not thinking straight mate, I've bolded your post so that others can lol at it the same as I am.

When did doc's get AS handed to them on a silver platter, well, lets see, I don't recall the patch, but here is what arrived on that platter, in case you were wondering: http://auno.org/ao/db.php?id=281506

"I wasn't aware that asking to be given the same chance as other profs was asking for things to be OP."
Now you know. If it's OP'd for crats, engies, and advies, what makes you think it's not OP'd for doctors?

If you're still clear as to why races to OP'dness are not good for the game, re-read my last post or this thread, where I talk about it exactly: http://forums.anarchy-online.com/sho...ht=power+creep.

Where did i ever say AS shouldn't be nerfed?

When did AS get handed to doctors on a silver platter? Is what you read

Sure AS pistol was a nice toy, but it wasn't for doctors only. Doctors still have troubles getting AS to get it on, let alone more AS skill to ensure decent AS. Is what was said.

What makes me think its not OP for doctors? Did you NOT READ MY POSTS!! or do you simply refuse to acknowledge what other people say and simply shove words into their mouths like youve done in this last post?

**McKnuckleSamwich** · Jul 5th, 2010, 02:15:23

Originally Posted by agentwolve

Sounds good if MA's, advys and enforcers receive a cap on there SA but not shades.

also fixers should have uncapped burst ect

Absolutely. Like, lets redefine abilities on weapons based on the users: is a doctor weilding the ithaca going to be as good at it as a trader?

Is an advy with Dshark on going to be as good at using it as a soldier?

is a enforcer using Supernova going to be as good at sniping as a agent, or even soldier, given the ranged energy base skill of the weapon?

Probably not, so, imo, some of these weapons could use special MBS's. The problem with special MBS's is that they don't provide class specific definition. Because, a soldier MIGHT be able to use the supernova effectively, and a trader MIGHT be ableto use teh ithaca effectively, but, could an agent use the supernova and the ithaca more effectively in the case of using the aimed shot special?

Hence:

If not Special MBS's, then at least some further definition in how the specials do damage, which should inherently be prof dependant.

For example have the multipliers on a skill be dependant on the colour of the skills: so: agents would receive the highest multipliers to AS based on the colour of the skill (any other profs get anythign but dark blue.?) shades would enjoy strong SA ability, enforcers and MA's strong brawl, etc.

But, imo, profs that are utterly dependant on a skill, for example: burst for fixers, FA for soldiers, fast attack for keepers, brawl for MA's, these profs should recieve skill based multipliers to special AR and damage.

This would provide profession based inherent limitations both due to IP expenditure, and in max ability, and the end benefit of using a special that was not made for them.

Which then begs the question: who did FC THINK was going to use the AS pistol?

Really, were agents thinking about using Pistols? Or was this just some sadistic mission to make all evade profs /quit?

Originally Posted by Theonora

Your argument falls down a bit here. Adventurers are, in fact, pistol specialists. Specifically, adventurers are the dual-wielding specialists, be it pistols or 1he weapons. Engineers also, massive pistol buffs. Crats have them too, iirc. Of course, engis and crats are also pet profs, so that brings in an entirely different element to the discussions -- but advies have a strong argument to excel in their pistol skills.

As far as the specials go, clearly our outstanding skill is supposed to be fling shot, but we have buffs for burst and aimed shot as well. Not Agent level buffs, clearly, but the tendency is there.

If you want to argue about the overpoweredness of the aimed shot and the 80% def check, I'm there with you. You'll notice that the ranged advies who have been so for a long time (not the FOTM, jump on the OP bandwagon ones) never wanted an aimed shot pistol to begin with. (Or, I shall amend, most didn't.)

But the whole "they aren't supposed to use pistols that well" argument doesn't do it for me. We clearly ARE.

I meant "use pistols" to do aimed shots... clearly, the buffs add pistol AR, maybe some burst, fling, and multi melee. I don't recall any buffs other than the standard comp ranged and agents bufflines adding aimed shot (could be wrong here)... But, that is due to aimed shot NEVER being available on a pistol until some whimsical Dev stuck it on a endgame pistol thereby transforming every pistol user into a "sniping" hero once equipped :/

***just because a weapon HAS a skill req DOESN'T make you good at it***

So, limit the benefit that non-appropriate classes get from using a non-proficient skill.

**Theonora** · Jul 5th, 2010, 02:32:41

Originally Posted by McKnuckleSamwich

I meant "use pistols" to do aimed shots... clearly, the buffs add pistol AR, maybe some burst, fling, and multi melee. I don't recall any buffs other than the standard comp ranged and agents bufflines adding aimed shot (could be wrong here)...

Eagle Eye has an aimed shot buff on it.

**Kazeran** · Jul 5th, 2010, 03:46:59

Originally Posted by McKnuckleSamwich

Absolutely. Like, lets redefine abilities on weapons based on the users: is a doctor weilding the ithaca going to be as good at it as a trader?

Is an advy with Dshark on going to be as good at using it as a soldier?

is a enforcer using Supernova going to be as good at sniping as a agent, or even soldier, given the ranged energy base skill of the weapon?

Probably not, so, imo, some of these weapons could use special MBS's. The problem with special MBS's is that they don't provide class specific definition. Because, a soldier MIGHT be able to use the supernova effectively, and a trader MIGHT be ableto use teh ithaca effectively, but, could an agent use the supernova and the ithaca more effectively in the case of using the aimed shot special?

"I listed profs that can use these things and claim they are as good as profs that "specialize" in using said weapon/skill. But we all know they arn't simply due to the ip template of profs."

So yea, that means everything is fine aside from AS because of the amount it can be buffed. However thats being taken care of so I don't see the need for more stuff to be added when things already work fine, aside from AS.

Originally Posted by McKnuckleSamwich

***just because a weapon HAS a skill req DOESN'T make you good at it***

So, limit the benefit that non-appropriate classes get from using a non-proficient skill.

Its called IP cost and templates. We currently have them ingame and they do a fairly good job of doing what its suppose to do with the exception of AS which is being fixed.

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