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Thread: Crat debuffs

  1. #41
    Lol @ Hellrule getting things wrong, as per usual. It's a wonder you even post about 'crats as you blatantly have things so wrong, so often. It's amusing to read tho.
    One profession to RoO them all, one profession to proc stun them, one profession to calm them all and in the darkness Exp perk them!

    Crataiken 220/30/70 General - Primal Evolution - 3rd AI 30 'Crat on RK 1 Setup
    Calms 220/30/70 General - Primal Evolution
    Medicaiken 220/30/70 General - Primal Evolution Setup
    Newen 220/30/70 President - The Galactic Milieu
    Mettagirl 220/20/** General - Primal Evolution
    Krataiken 150/18/40 General - Primal Evolution Setup

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Aiken View Post
    Lol @ Hellrule getting things wrong, as per usual. It's a wonder you even post about 'crats as you blatantly have things so wrong, so often. It's amusing to read tho.
    I got things wrong per usual? Clearly. A 45%nr with a 180%level check in a thread about pvm. thanks man, i really messed this one up this time.
    Hellrule 220/30/70 - Your future Crat Dictator
    Secretly Clan

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Weltall View Post
    They all add up to equal best cc prof.
    Sure they do...also keepers have the best offense in-game and MA's are always in-range.
    Keep living in your dream world where everything works as it should, but post only AFTER coming back to reality, rolling an endgame crat, twinking it to oblivion and actually pvping with it for a few months...

    Quote Originally Posted by Daggzz View Post
    What a useful post, you really know how to debate!
    Quality of anwser equal to the one of quoted posts
    Im simply too lazy to point out the flaws of the quoted idiocies because they're so obvious, and have been pointed out on these forums so many times, that there actually is no point in re-posting them again...one who doesnt want to understand will never understand.

    Edit: Also, @ topic itself, ditto to Malaxia, these debuffs been here for ages, suddenly ppl noticed them?
    Seems to me like an emo cycle is currently over crats
    You survived...You prevailed....Yet a bird's flight knows no end...
    Reality is a momentary dream but a dream is a reality for an eternity.


    Kawaii "Koizumi" Akira - 220/25/70 soon-to-be-Berserk MA (refreshing!)
    Deadalus "Yumeno" Proxy - 220/30/70 Former stunwhore
    One "Namichan" Piece - 220/30/68 Drainwhore
    Aj Ar "Spawara" Triplenab - 220/24/45 Nuke-Welder
    IOmnomnomjoor "Emohatetellz" - 2/0/0 TL5 killer in progress

    Quote Originally Posted by Quitter123 View Post
    How about this new nano for enfs, it takes random amount of nanoskills and nano to cast, when landed on random opponent it debuffs random weaponskill by random amount for an unspecified length of time.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Koizumi View Post
    Edit: Also, @ topic itself, ditto to Malaxia, these debuffs been here for ages, suddenly ppl noticed them?
    Seems to me like an emo cycle is currently over crats
    NTs inaugurated the trend with Cb whines a mere 4-5 years after it was implemented...
    Tribute to Aratink : Racatti and Artyomis will be pale shadows of you as long as they don't have the infamous Clanslator in their sig.
    Noim, Neutral TL7 NT
    Sethis, Neutral TL7 Keeper
    Anthraxal, Omni TL5 Enfotrox

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Koizumi View Post
    Sure they do...also keepers have the best offense in-game and MA's are always in-range.
    Keep living in your dream world where everything works as it should, but post only AFTER coming back to reality, rolling an endgame crat, twinking it to oblivion and actually pvping with it for a few months...
    Uh what? Retarded analogies are retarded...

    Alright, so tell me then which prof has better cc than a crat and end your stupid nonsense once and for all.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Weltall View Post
    Alright, so tell me then which prof has better cc than a crat and end your stupid nonsense once and for all.
    Oh, my bad, i didnt think that by "best cc prof" u ment the only one that has a single ONE decently working cc tool (which is also single target)...
    Well, sure, if you mean that, it might be 'the best cc prof', tho it means putting other profs having cc tools into a 'not a cc prof at all' category.

    Well, cancel that, NT's might have an easier time landing their roots, but on the other hand they need to cast CB first....

    As i said, come back from your wonderland, roll a crat, twink it and pvp for a few months.
    And comment on crat toolset AFTER u do that, not the other way around.
    Ah, id forget to mention (in your case it might be necessary), but dont make it a CSS or an NR8 crat, k?
    You survived...You prevailed....Yet a bird's flight knows no end...
    Reality is a momentary dream but a dream is a reality for an eternity.


    Kawaii "Koizumi" Akira - 220/25/70 soon-to-be-Berserk MA (refreshing!)
    Deadalus "Yumeno" Proxy - 220/30/70 Former stunwhore
    One "Namichan" Piece - 220/30/68 Drainwhore
    Aj Ar "Spawara" Triplenab - 220/24/45 Nuke-Welder
    IOmnomnomjoor "Emohatetellz" - 2/0/0 TL5 killer in progress

    Quote Originally Posted by Quitter123 View Post
    How about this new nano for enfs, it takes random amount of nanoskills and nano to cast, when landed on random opponent it debuffs random weaponskill by random amount for an unspecified length of time.

  7. #47
    Of course crats have the best PvM crowd control in game. They're supposed to - they're the crowd control profession.

    ITT: cripple-fights
    "Still, I was fabulous, and it was a bloody good laugh"

    BUREAUCRASHCOLDCOMFORTFONEBONE
    KISSNMAKEUPCASHORCHEQUEJELLYFUNK

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Koizumi View Post
    that root is the ONLY working cc we have....
    You don't like it? Can I have it? Pretty please.
    Renowned jester of the double AS Tigress

    MP in sneak eNSDed me and did about 20k damage in 10-12 seconds

  9. #49
    It's a fact that the current sum of crat initiative debuffs is too much and that this situation would need to be adjusted if there is ever going to be something even remotely resembling balance in AO pve. Changing OP toolsets will obviously not be popular with those who are currently using them, but it is a bullet that FC will have to bite if they want to be serious about balancing anything.

    A point made here was that crats always had initiative debuffs, which is true, but that doesn't mean that crats have always had too much initiative debuffing like they do now. Normalized Improved Red Tape, Nanite Improved Red Tape, Workplace Depression and Malaise of Zeal are all relatively new buffs. Only Malaise of Zeal was put into an existing nanoschool, the rest are in entirely new schools and so they all stack: The amount of init debuffing gained by crats since LE is huge.

    Nerfing the OP crat initiative debuffs also doesn't neccesarily spell the end of them. When you nerf something that is completely OP, that doesn't automatically mean that it will also get nerfed into oblivion (although FC has a tendency to do just that). If crats were able to do 1250 permanent initiative debuffing instead of the current 2500, that would still make an very large impact in pve. With initiative debuffing for 1250 together with the rest of a still very good support toolset and very good damage dealing, crats would still be one of desirable team pve professions (and still the most desirable profession to invite for me). Something doesn't need to be OP to be useful.

    Another argument made to keep OP toolsets in game is that AO has a low population and OP toolsets are somehow required to continue playing. If in the future some of the lovechild pve professions are really nerfed somewhat (however slightly) and you find that you can't complete the same content in the same team anymore, open lft and invite some more people. Even when those extra people their toolset only makes a minor impact compared to yours, it might still be enough to tip the fight. Doing a "raid" with 6 instead of 4 people isn't exactly the end of the world.


    @Koizumi
    I really don't see how "best CC prof" could be interpreted as anything other than "the profession with the best CC toolset". Which in AO is crats. And yes, in bossfights crats are the only profession who still have CC, which makes them the best (and only) CC profession by default in those situations.

    Your other argument about leveling a crat to 220 and pvp'ing with it. Well, I don't really see how that is relevant the OP'ness of crat initiative debuffs. Most of the damage in pvp comes from sources that are unaffected by initiative debuffs (special attacks and perks), even with over 9000 initiative debuffs those would still kill you, but with a lower total amount of initiative debuffs atleast pve would be more interesting (which some still want incredibly enough).
    "Neutnet relay: [PvM] *220 bureaucrat*: Starting 12man, need Enfo, Doc, Keeper, reflects."
    "Neutnet relay: [PvM] *220 doctor*: Looking for crat/keep/enf for 12m pst "
    "Neutnet relay: [PvM] *220 soldier*: still need doc/enf for 12 man. pst
    "Neutnet relay: [PvM] LF enfo , crat , doc and soldier's for ipande / pst [220 doctor]"

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Josephina View Post
    It's a fact that the current sum of crat initiative debuffs is too much ... The amount of init debuffing gained by crats since LE is huge
    No, it's not a fact. What you probably want nerfed is Anatomic Blight

    There's 3 sides to the enfo/doc/crat triangle and all 3 have been buffed. Docs have received more init debuffing love than crats, and enfos received massive tanking boosts. We're just used to the idea that docs and enfos are "required".

    Any change that means you have to spend more time getting the perfect team together before you can do anything is a bad change. Sure, there needs to be a reduction in the synergy that you get by combining a doctor, a crat and an enforcer, but adjusting the way red tapes stack with doc init debuff procs (or just removing the doc UBT procs) and a few strategic nerfs to all three profs would probably do it.

    iCH, iMUB and iMongo are all far more ridiculous than Malaise of Zeal.
    "Still, I was fabulous, and it was a bloody good laugh"

    BUREAUCRASHCOLDCOMFORTFONEBONE
    KISSNMAKEUPCASHORCHEQUEJELLYFUNK

  11. #51
    Anatomic Blight has a chance to break on attack, in a team of 6 it won't be up long. The only doctor init debuff that can be counted as permanent in boss encounters is Muscular Malaise for -900 inits and even that is not as guaranteed as the -2500 inits from crats. And Malaise of Zeal alone is indeed not ridicilous, it's Malaise of Zeal + all the other init debuffs of crats that is. Shades also have permanent init debuffing in boss fights, but there once again it is below 1k. It still is crats who have too much init debuffing.

    And with "Any change that means you have to spend more time getting the perfect team together before you can do anything is a bad change." it seems like you are one of the people who don't want OP toolsets nerfed because it would impact your minimal team setup. First off: there shouldn't even be a perfect team. There's only so many doctors and crats to go around, if more profession combinations would work there would be far more teams starting. One of the reasons that AO can seem so dead right now is because too many people don't want to start without the perfect team (and once they've got their 4 to 6 people together they dont' invite more so they don't have to share the loot ...).

    Without either crat and doctor most teams would fail in stuff like 12m or the Beast (even with all 12 professions present that are not doc+crat). When a team of 4 has a bigger chance to succeed than a team of 12 just because there are 2 professions missing in the latter, it should tell you that there is something very wrong indeed.

    The point of balancing should be to make more professions viable and able to compete. Leading away from the minimal/perfect team setups and away from having mandatory professions. With more team combinations that work, it would also lead to more teams starting.
    "Neutnet relay: [PvM] *220 bureaucrat*: Starting 12man, need Enfo, Doc, Keeper, reflects."
    "Neutnet relay: [PvM] *220 doctor*: Looking for crat/keep/enf for 12m pst "
    "Neutnet relay: [PvM] *220 soldier*: still need doc/enf for 12 man. pst
    "Neutnet relay: [PvM] LF enfo , crat , doc and soldier's for ipande / pst [220 doctor]"

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Josephina
    Without either crat and doctor most teams would fail in stuff like 12m or the Beast (even with all 12 professions present that are not doc+crat). When a team of 4 has a bigger chance to succeed than a team of 12 just because there are 2 professions missing in the latter, it should tell you that there is something very wrong indeed.
    what's there so very wrong? needing heals? ofc a team of 12 support professons will fail while a team of enfo/doc/crat/solja will succeed. you want crats nerfed because you think it will make it easier for others to get their phats. well, youre wrong. ppl will adjust and go for more heals or dd and the rest of the support proffs will start a 'nerf enf/doc/high dd because my support toon cant get boc'.
    Fence Sitter

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Koizumi View Post
    Oh, my bad, i didnt think that by "best cc prof" u ment the only one that has a single ONE decently working cc tool (which is also single target)...
    Well, sure, if you mean that, it might be 'the best cc prof', tho it means putting other profs having cc tools into a 'not a cc prof at all' category.

    Well, cancel that, NT's might have an easier time landing their roots, but on the other hand they need to cast CB first....

    As i said, come back from your wonderland, roll a crat, twink it and pvp for a few months.
    And comment on crat toolset AFTER u do that, not the other way around.
    Ah, id forget to mention (in your case it might be necessary), but dont make it a CSS or an NR8 crat, k?
    The argument was mostly about pvm in any case but is applicable in pvp as well, since the only problem with anything rooting me frequently enough on any of my toons are crats surprise surprise.

    And yeah, I got a crat (as I suppose anyone who plays this game long enough usually tend to roll one). And good, you agree with me, so that's over and done with.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Josephina View Post
    [snipped]
    AB has a lowish break and doc pistols are pretty quick, so it's probably up quite a bit.
    Regardless, Malaise doesn't stack with UBT so in your dreaded crat/doc team, the crat's bringing less init debuffing (450+250+250+600) than the doc (1462+980 + occasionally 2569).

    As for OPed tool sets, I like that crats have been buffed enough that you can use them in place of a doc or an enfo for many things. Doing mitaar with a crat, a shade and some traders or vortexx with some advies and an FP doctor, or 12man with a fixer tanking is miles more fun than sitting spamming "LF doc/tank" for hours.

    Way I see it, nerf the init debuffs and there won't suddenly be rainbows and teamage for all. The minimal team elitists just sub in a second doctor for the crat. And the rest of us will still be in the same mess we are now.

    I've done 12man without a crat and I've done it without an enfo/soldier. Not managed it without a doctor yet though.
    "Still, I was fabulous, and it was a bloody good laugh"

    BUREAUCRASHCOLDCOMFORTFONEBONE
    KISSNMAKEUPCASHORCHEQUEJELLYFUNK

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Weltall View Post
    The argument was mostly about pvm in any case but is applicable in pvp as well
    This just proves how much you know about pvp crat.

    Quote Originally Posted by Weltall View Post
    since the only problem with anything rooting me frequently enough on any of my toons are crats surprise surprise.
    Funny thing, you wanna stay permanently immune to roots?
    Good one

    Quote Originally Posted by Jellyfunk View Post
    As for OPed tool sets, I like that crats have been buffed enough that you can use them in place of a doc or an enfo for many things. Doing mitaar with a crat, a shade and some traders or vortexx with some advies and an FP doctor, or 12man with a fixer tanking is miles more fun than sitting spamming "LF doc/tank" for hours.

    Way I see it, nerf the init debuffs and there won't suddenly be rainbows and teamage for all. The minimal team elitists just sub in a second doctor for the crat. And the rest of us will still be in the same mess we are now.
    Finally somebody who uses their brains. Ditto.
    Last edited by Koizumi; Jul 12th, 2010 at 18:50:40.
    You survived...You prevailed....Yet a bird's flight knows no end...
    Reality is a momentary dream but a dream is a reality for an eternity.


    Kawaii "Koizumi" Akira - 220/25/70 soon-to-be-Berserk MA (refreshing!)
    Deadalus "Yumeno" Proxy - 220/30/70 Former stunwhore
    One "Namichan" Piece - 220/30/68 Drainwhore
    Aj Ar "Spawara" Triplenab - 220/24/45 Nuke-Welder
    IOmnomnomjoor "Emohatetellz" - 2/0/0 TL5 killer in progress

    Quote Originally Posted by Quitter123 View Post
    How about this new nano for enfs, it takes random amount of nanoskills and nano to cast, when landed on random opponent it debuffs random weaponskill by random amount for an unspecified length of time.

  16. #56

    Red face

    Quote Originally Posted by -Klod- View Post
    You don't like it? Can I have it? Pretty please.
    I never said i didnt like GRM. Its the rest of the toolset that isnt working that i dislike.

    Quote Originally Posted by Josephina View Post
    Nerfing the OP crat initiative debuffs also doesn't neccesarily spell the end of them.
    Sounds like something FC staff would say about stun procs before their nerf

    Quote Originally Posted by Josephina View Post
    When you nerf something that is completely OP, that doesn't automatically mean that it will also get nerfed into oblivion
    And you seriously believe that? ^.-

    Quote Originally Posted by Josephina View Post
    If crats were able to do 1250 permanent initiative debuffing instead of the current 2500, that would still make an very large impact in pve.
    Not really....at most a 'regular' impact(read "anyone can do as much")...which usually leads to 'not just that much needed anymore' prof category.

    Quote Originally Posted by Josephina View Post
    With initiative debuffing for 1250 together with the rest of a still very good support toolset
    What support toolset you are talking about? o0

    Quote Originally Posted by Josephina View Post
    and very good damage dealing, crats would still be one of desirable team pve professions (and still the most desirable profession to invite for me).
    Thats another lie in there. You know perfectly well crats are invited ONLY because of their init debuffs.


    Quote Originally Posted by Josephina View Post
    @Koizumi
    I really don't see how "best CC prof" could be interpreted as anything other than "the profession with the best CC toolset". Which in AO is crats. And yes, in bossfights crats are the only profession who still have CC, which makes them the best (and only) CC profession by default in those situations.
    I went into an argument, but most of it was about pvp, but still, even in pvm crats barely have ANY working cc toolset.
    Snares? Roots? Calms? Stuns? Used where and on what? Remind me please but afair 90% of what we fight today has innate resistances to these.
    The ONLY exception to this in pvm is the bosscalm.
    Would you call that "best cc prof"?
    With 1-2 working tools?

    Quote Originally Posted by Josephina View Post
    Most of the damage in pvp comes from sources that are unaffected by initiative debuffs (special attacks and perks)even with over 9000 initiative debuffs those would still kill you, but with a lower total amount of initiative debuffs atleast pve would be more interesting (which some still want incredibly enough).
    Oh wow.....
    Seriously, did you ever pvp on a crat? Sorry to ask, but ok, since you mention it now, ill give you some examples (imo in order of importance):
    1: Enfs....when we're in range, we got no chance...init debuffed rage takes enough time to cast so that we have space for reaction. Ill mention here that landing all red tapes on a good enf is a very hard task for even a fully nanoskill-equipped crat
    2: docs - w/o init debuffs, no way i can help any1 kill a doc (i cant kill them solo unfortunately).
    Even WITH init debuffs its very often pretty hard.
    3: agents - similiar to above
    4: melee advs (these still exist, yes) - similiar to above
    5: NT - a fully nanoskill equipped crat has a SLIGHTEST chance if the debuffs land.
    6: pet professions - all init debuffs (ofc while casting their pets poundin on me meanwhile) > pet calm = a chance to win. Cant even imagine killing an eng w/o it.
    7: fixer - landing red tapes is the key to make them stop consta-snaring our pets and getting outta range

    As you can see for alot of crats these init debuffs are the KEY pvp element.
    Nerf that? What will we have left? 1 root that has a good nr check but is still semi-usefull because of resistances?
    You survived...You prevailed....Yet a bird's flight knows no end...
    Reality is a momentary dream but a dream is a reality for an eternity.


    Kawaii "Koizumi" Akira - 220/25/70 soon-to-be-Berserk MA (refreshing!)
    Deadalus "Yumeno" Proxy - 220/30/70 Former stunwhore
    One "Namichan" Piece - 220/30/68 Drainwhore
    Aj Ar "Spawara" Triplenab - 220/24/45 Nuke-Welder
    IOmnomnomjoor "Emohatetellz" - 2/0/0 TL5 killer in progress

    Quote Originally Posted by Quitter123 View Post
    How about this new nano for enfs, it takes random amount of nanoskills and nano to cast, when landed on random opponent it debuffs random weaponskill by random amount for an unspecified length of time.

  17. #57
    As stated many times, most people here have no idea in what state pvm/pvp crat are.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by -Klod- View Post
    You don't like it? Can I have it? Pretty please.
    But MP's are op'ed
    Hellrule 220/30/70 - Your future Crat Dictator
    Secretly Clan

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Koizumi View Post
    Funny thing, you wanna stay permanently immune to roots?
    Good one
    Rofl permanently immune to roots? Nah but the ability to chain root something is fun right? Yeah maybe for you playing the crat.

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Hellrule View Post
    But MP's are op'ed
    Indeed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Koizumi View Post
    I never said i didnt like GRM. Its the rest of the toolset that isnt working that i dislike.
    Your toolset works perfectly. What are you talking about?
    Renowned jester of the double AS Tigress

    MP in sneak eNSDed me and did about 20k damage in 10-12 seconds

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