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Thread: Friday with(out) Means: July 23rd, 2010 - Insert Creative Subtitle Here

  1. #181
    It really is a fanbulous time.

    Some time ago Means asked what the community wanted. "Startup revision" was what the great majority of players asked for. Most players are actually aware that the game needs to renovate its playerbase if it wants to survive.

    Since then we have a crawling rebalance of PvP requested by almost NOBODY. We have a promise of a new PvP playfield that is likely to be as popular as the BS's. Ganking noobs AND Ks VPs is going to be the next big lol for the "elite". We have daily missions that are "great". Who in his/her right mind thinks that a toon out of noob island can go kill the level 25 docs? Daily missions are great. They help a lot with leveling, they help alot (I did it on purpose) with tokens. None of it helps a starting player, but it makes Wrangeline happy and willing to level another toon.

    This game needs a complete revision of its starting experience. First, before anything else, urgently, as in RIGHT NOW. But lets look at it from the brighter side. That is one promise the developers wont break.
    Gustatus similis pullus.

  2. #182
    Quote Originally Posted by Lusos101 View Post
    This game needs a complete revision of its starting experience. First, before anything else, urgently, as in RIGHT NOW.
    that & new engine, the soonest the best.
    rebalance came come piece by piece over monthes.
    Bitnykk/Bittorrent - young RL of AP & old emissary of CODE

  3. #183
    Quote Originally Posted by Lusos101 View Post
    Since then we have a crawling rebalance of PvP requested by almost NOBODY. We have a promise of a new PvP playfield that is likely to be as popular as the BS's. Ganking noobs AND Ks VPs is going to be the next big lol for the "elite". We have daily missions that are "great". Who in his/her right mind thinks that a toon out of noob island can go kill the level 25 docs? Daily missions are great. They help a lot with leveling, they help alot (I did it on purpose) with tokens. None of it helps a starting player, but it makes Wrangeline happy and willing to level another toon.
    What, nobody? How about ... uhm, pretty much everybody? And rebalancing won't just concern pvp, but pvm as well. Notice how there's several professions that don't really turn up anywhere? Wonder why. Maybe a complete reenvisioning of their toolset could change that? Sure, I get it, you hate pvp but what does that have to do with the game needing fundamental changes to several profs to bring them up to par?
    And daily missions don't help new players? I beg to differ. Does the game still need a new starting experience? Yes, and it's being worked on. Is this able to introduce you to daily missions? Why, yes.
    Thor Mastablasta Hammersmith - Level 220, AI 30, LE 70 Clan Atrox Nano Technician - Setup
    The Red Brotherhood

    I'm a Nano-Technician, don't ever expect me to fight unbuffed, alone or fair.

    Means: about f'ing time :P
    Satenia: heresy <3
    Znore: Mastablasta <3
    Kinkstaah: I have agro from many mobs ;(
    Madarab: we are aoe class, we are supose to use pistols
    Marxgorm: the NT toolset does not fit into my raiding tactics

  4. #184
    Everybody? Really? Can you name them? I bet you can, if you really want to.
    And rebalancing will ofc affect PvM, but it is aimed mostly at PvP. In fact, let me refrase, it is done because of PvP.
    And the rebalancing wont change much in PvM if the same old professions are still the best options for the same old places. Anyway, what does it matter? A great rebalance, superbly done, wont have much use. The existing playerbase has already adapted to existing endgame content. There is no use in changing if there are no new players. Rebalance? Yes please, but after the playerbase begins to grow again. I hate PvP? Yes I do. So does almost everybody else. Take VPs from the BS and you will see how much PvP you have running in AO. PvP is one of the worst features in this game. It needs rebalancing, very much. But without players to play the game how can you revive PvP?
    Daily missions help new players. They help them to level faster, become gimpier faster, unable to do any content solo faster, become useless in teams faster, get shunned by the "eleet" faster and give up faster. Thats a lot of help right there. If they can do the missions, which many of them they cant. I can see the excitment, the happyness and the joy that a noob feels when, coming out of noob island, they get one of the missions with level 25 mobs inside.

    And the new starting experience is being worked on by who exactly? Who told you? Spill it. Give a reference that has more information then "Yes, we will do something about it sometime soon".
    Gustatus similis pullus.

  5. #185
    Quote Originally Posted by Lusos101 View Post
    Everybody? Really? Can you name them? I bet you can, if you really want to.
    And rebalancing will ofc affect PvM, but it is aimed mostly at PvP. In fact, let me refrase, it is done because of PvP.
    And the rebalancing wont change much in PvM if the same old professions are still the best options for the same old places. Anyway, what does it matter? A great rebalance, superbly done, wont have much use. The existing playerbase has already adapted to existing endgame content. There is no use in changing if there are no new players. Rebalance? Yes please, but after the playerbase begins to grow again. I hate PvP? Yes I do. So does almost everybody else. Take VPs from the BS and you will see how much PvP you have running in AO. PvP is one of the worst features in this game. It needs rebalancing, very much. But without players to play the game how can you revive PvP?
    Daily missions help new players. They help them to level faster, become gimpier faster, unable to do any content solo faster, become useless in teams faster, get shunned by the "eleet" faster and give up faster. Thats a lot of help right there. If they can do the missions, which many of them they cant. I can see the excitment, the happyness and the joy that a noob feels when, coming out of noob island, they get one of the missions with level 25 mobs inside.

    And the new starting experience is being worked on by who exactly? Who told you? Spill it. Give a reference that has more information then "Yes, we will do something about it sometime soon".

    Sorry but the rebalancing really does need to be done before we get new people for two simple reasons:
    Firstly new players would hate learning a game to find everything change on them in a few months anyway.
    Secondly Old vets who are currently playing the game will be the best people to test it and help to insure things are balanced well before the new players arrive so they don't get stuck in the middle of the confusion trying to learn how to play an already complex game while it's changing on them.

    So the rebalancing certainly needs to be done and tested before the Graphics engine and the new players.

    In addition if you've been paying attention to the rebalancing of the nanos you may have noticed that there are a number of changes which impact on PvM as well, like Keepers getting taunts and MA's getting potentially improved heals, allowing those two professions to take up tanking/healing roles if required

    Same applies to the Startup Area, that needs to be in and ready to go after being tested by Funcom's Dev's, the ARK Bughunters on test and by players on live because there will always be bugs that slip through the net and hit live no matter how hard you try to catch them.

    On a seperate note:
    As for the daily mission, someone said 10 at each level range, from my own use of them that would seem to be a different set every 25 levels or so:
    0-24, 25-49, 50-74, 75-99, 100-124, 125-149, 150-174, 175-199, 200-220.
    means you're talking a minimum of 90 daily missions to be released all in one go and you want them to be with minimal bugs, that's a huge content update right there, as it is I think they did about half that many daily missions, which is still a huge amount to design, build, add into the play-fields, bug-fix and get live.

    Yes I would love to see more daily mission options, and Genele's currently working on a load of Alien daily missions while Lindelu's sorting out the scaling problems present in the current ones. (See Genele's interview and the OP for reference on these) Hurrah!
    Ebondevil - Omni Level 220 Agent on Atlantean, Feel free to contact me any time if you have questions, in game or out.
    Varinox - Omni Level 220 Meta-Physicist on Atlantean
    Yamarra - Omni Level 150 Shade on Atlantean

    Feel free to send me any tell in game or a Private Message if you require anything.

  6. #186
    The only thing left for me to do in AO is either pvp or roll alts. I've got 5 220's, a 218, a 200, and a 183, and I don't think I can stomach leveling any more alts.

  7. #187
    I said 10 each Range yes.

    BUT I didn´t say they should all come in 1 update, i think if the next 2-3 updates contain further quests it is fine.

    In addition to that Funcom worked.... 7 or 8 months on the missions, so 90-100 Missions all in all shouldn´t be too much, don´t forget that there are missions like the 150+ "kill the guy in Lush Hills Resort" thing, where you only need to kill 1 mob, this can´t take weeks to develop this one

    Besides that, i think you can do some tweaks to already available missions to give out the same mission in different ranges.

    For example, with my 210+ toons i get the Mission with the Plumbo Beer Leaflets, ok i know go to Tir is hard for level 100 char, BUT.

    Why bring in a "small" Plumbo Campaign (or maybe another Drink) where you only have to go to ~5 Clubs for level 100 chars, so an Omni could go to "neuters R us", "reets retreat" "baboons" "the grind" and maybe Relax or the bar in Hope, so he wouldn´t need to go to any "dangerous" area.

    Since everything for the "big" quest is alrdy implemented, it can´t be too hard to give out the "small" one a chance for implementation and i think it can´t be too wrong to show some 100 newbie char dude some Bars


    I talked with Genele at the halloween party about daily missions, so my problem with this is, that after a loooooooong developing time something hits live Servers which isn´t as good as i expected it to be, i don´t say daily missions are bad, nope, but i think there could have been much "more" behind this and into this.

    Take the Lush Hills quest for example, you go there, kill 1 guy, and that was it, would it be so hard to place 4 guys there which all give you 1 specific tip and you need to think who of them is the traitor and needs to get killed?
    I wouldn´t mind if it is always the same guy then (so you could use just 4 texts, and always the same mission), but it would be very interesting and at least 100 times better than it is now, especially when you think of the great scripting Skills Funcom has and their ability to design conversations

  8. #188
    All hail Macrosun!
    i R not spik engrish

  9. #189
    Kvetche and whine moar, I still have popcorn.
    ____ Equipment
    Kopo: There's nothing wrong with the (NT) profession itself, it's just that the other 99.9% of us playing it are deluded & incompetent.
    Unzipped: I'm right, Schmorgi is right... everyone else is wrong and /org lazy.... yep... that pretty much sums up my thoughts.
    Mangle: .... even still the leveling curve seems steep. Why must there be an exponential leveling curve? Who the hell invented that crap with MMOs to begin with?
    deniska: malewerecat h8 for making me agree with Masta
    sobeguy:Anyhow, Marius was evil regardless. Gaute was evil too. They are like, the Bat Man and Robin of evil. They probably run around in tights and masks, making vaguely homoerotic comments, and generally meddling anywhere people are trying to have fun!
    Righteous:Sil is in the kitchen making some sandwiches, he says you're lying and doesn't know who you are.
    Sephiroth:you managed to bother two people with one sentence. Nice
    I Remember The Missing: Nepenthia, Naraya, Satenia.

  10. #190
    Quote Originally Posted by ElBoogy View Post
    For example, with my 210+ toons i get the Mission with the Plumbo Beer Leaflets, ok i know go to Tir is hard for level 100 char, BUT.

    Why bring in a "small" Plumbo Campaign (or maybe another Drink) where you only have to go to ~5 Clubs for level 100 chars, so an Omni could go to "neuters R us", "reets retreat" "baboons" "the grind" and maybe Relax or the bar in Hope, so he wouldn´t need to go to any "dangerous" area.
    If you remove any and all risk you remove any and all fun. Basically turning the game into Farmville, and potentially attracting more players, as Farmville is the most succesful game in the world, but in the process you'll have lost what made the game great in the first place.
    Thor Mastablasta Hammersmith - Level 220, AI 30, LE 70 Clan Atrox Nano Technician - Setup
    The Red Brotherhood

    I'm a Nano-Technician, don't ever expect me to fight unbuffed, alone or fair.

    Means: about f'ing time :P
    Satenia: heresy <3
    Znore: Mastablasta <3
    Kinkstaah: I have agro from many mobs ;(
    Madarab: we are aoe class, we are supose to use pistols
    Marxgorm: the NT toolset does not fit into my raiding tactics

  11. #191
    Quote Originally Posted by Mastablasta View Post
    If you remove any and all risk you remove any and all fun. Basically turning the game into Farmville, and potentially attracting more players, as Farmville is the most succesful game in the world, but in the process you'll have lost what made the game great in the first place.
    daily missions weren't there in the first place, and one of the things that made this game great in the first place was a healthy population. the rest of the stuff that makes this game great is still there, so what are you smoking?
    Have a listen to my latest musical abomination.

    Fixers run while engi's Build
    Soldiers gun near crats coffee, spilled

  12. #192
    Quote Originally Posted by Mastablasta View Post
    What, nobody? How about ... uhm, pretty much everybody.
    You mean the vocal minority? Yes.
    Dagger 220/30/70 Shade // Attempted 219/24/?? Enforcer // Canidae 180/0/0 Adventurer // World 185/26/32 Meta-Physicist// Cramp 150/20/35 Engineer
    Ya wanna fix something - give RK mobs better xp, make RK matter again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mamman View Post
    Give shades love or we will stop buffing people!!

  13. #193
    Quote Originally Posted by notcrattey View Post
    You mean the vocal minority? Yes.
    I figure you never talk to anyone ingame. Or spend time ingame for that matter. Pretty easy to see where things are in need of a fix.
    Thor Mastablasta Hammersmith - Level 220, AI 30, LE 70 Clan Atrox Nano Technician - Setup
    The Red Brotherhood

    I'm a Nano-Technician, don't ever expect me to fight unbuffed, alone or fair.

    Means: about f'ing time :P
    Satenia: heresy <3
    Znore: Mastablasta <3
    Kinkstaah: I have agro from many mobs ;(
    Madarab: we are aoe class, we are supose to use pistols
    Marxgorm: the NT toolset does not fit into my raiding tactics

  14. #194
    Quote Originally Posted by Worldofalts View Post
    daily missions weren't there in the first place, and one of the things that made this game great in the first place was a healthy population. the rest of the stuff that makes this game great is still there, so what are you smoking?
    Reading comprehension. Removing risk is what everyone always asks for. If you look around the forums you'll see evidence from whiners that pvp is hated and should always be completely seperate from any leveling and other activities that take place within the game. Traveling to an enemy city entails a risk. Taking this risk is what people in large numbers used to do for fun, and no I'm not talking about the 5 people who go backyard humping now and again. I'm talking about many years ago, when the game had a healthy population. When the game was new. When it was one of just 3 real MMOs on the market, and 1 out of 2 in 3d graphics, and the one with the indisputably best graphics. Back then, there weren't even any team missions! Yet, we played the damn game. Why?

    Because it was fun to play with and against other people. Since then, people have played a billion other MMOs or WoW, and the thing they're looking for today is not simply the novelty of playing in a "persistent" online world with other players. The value of that died out long ago. Now people expect it to be possible to solo all kinds of things and content-on-demand is the new black.
    If it's not "on demand" they don't like it and they'll leave or cry about it loudly. A very prominent example being the imaginary concept "forced pvp". AO used to be all about pvp. There were pvp ladders on the AO website, people arranged wars just for the hell of it, because there weren't any Towers to fight over. People traveled through and were active in zones with 25% and 0% gas.

    In days of yore we'd run into a 25% zone and our hearts would be pounding because there might be enemies over the next hill coming to kill us, or fighting something so we could get the drop on them. We'd go to the arena and duel other players or defend it from opposite side raiders, or we'd band up and go to the enemy arena and try to hold it for as long as possible. Do you see anyone in those old places now?

    Maybe, since nearly all those 0-25% zones have become 75% zones and now people are running about doing random stuff for XP, minding their own business and hoping they don't run into anyone else, because other players are really just a bother. Unless they're your friend there to help you power lvl.

    So, while many of these things might actually still be ingame, all the risk and fun has gone out of it. You'll soon see people reply to my post, or be able to find it elsewhere, with something akin to "if you love pvp so much, why don't you go to BS" or "if you love pvp so much, why don't you go to those 25% zones you whine so much about" or "if everyone loved pvp so much wouldn't the 25% zones be full of people" or "we shouldn't fight eachother, we're so few that we should all hug and help eachother out".
    But those who reply in such a manner have completely failed to comprehend the reason why people aren't there and why I don't go to BS and why I like pvp. And in the end, competition is what this game is about. What is the point of just hugging and help eachother out if ultimately you end up with everyone at lvl max with all gear and all friendly and huggly without any reason to fight because we all agreed on how to split up the loot and towerfields between us? What is the point then, of gathering all this gear and distributing it peacably between eachother if there's nothing to come for at the end? If the point isn't to fight other players for reward and fun in the persistent part of the world for the risk of winning or losing, towers now, XP, loot, your huntspot in the past, then what is it? Accumulate as much gear as possible and then quit?
    If you don't introduce the concept of risk and the idea that fighting the other guy is a reason to better yourself, then your game might as well die, because when it's built around combat and conflict, and you dissuade people from taking part in that conflict, you've failed.
    Thor Mastablasta Hammersmith - Level 220, AI 30, LE 70 Clan Atrox Nano Technician - Setup
    The Red Brotherhood

    I'm a Nano-Technician, don't ever expect me to fight unbuffed, alone or fair.

    Means: about f'ing time :P
    Satenia: heresy <3
    Znore: Mastablasta <3
    Kinkstaah: I have agro from many mobs ;(
    Madarab: we are aoe class, we are supose to use pistols
    Marxgorm: the NT toolset does not fit into my raiding tactics

  15. #195
    Which prof is announced next?

  16. #196
    Wow Masta. Amazing.

    /bow
    Eroz, finally 220/26/70 Adventurer & proud General of Regulators on ex-RK2 (outdated) equip
    Rokroland, 170 Engineer No more crab for j00 Northern Front on ex-RK2
    Ranged roxxorz!
    Sig last updated properly when West Athens still had people sitting about the subway.
    Quote Originally Posted by Siahanor View Post
    Complaining about the realism of height changing mechanics in a game that has people who can channel their anger to make huge killer meatballs.

  17. #197
    Quote Originally Posted by Mastablasta View Post
    snip snip snip
    Go play an FPS then.

    Many people who play mmo's dont play for JUST pvp. Sure, there might be quite a few players who LOVE it. But, you can't pvp without pve.

    For those "Whiners" who complain about seperating pvp from pve, what do you think your doing right now?
    Atlantean
    ------------------
    Postmuerta - 210/10 Solitus Soldier

    Kamaytayan - 220/17 Solitus Fixer

  18. #198
    Quote Originally Posted by Mastablasta View Post
    I figure you never talk to anyone ingame. Or spend time ingame for that matter. Pretty easy to see where things are in need of a fix.
    Because clearly EVERYONE is about the peeveepe. More people care about the state of the game as a whole, such as population and beginning experience.
    Dagger 220/30/70 Shade // Attempted 219/24/?? Enforcer // Canidae 180/0/0 Adventurer // World 185/26/32 Meta-Physicist// Cramp 150/20/35 Engineer
    Ya wanna fix something - give RK mobs better xp, make RK matter again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mamman View Post
    Give shades love or we will stop buffing people!!

  19. #199
    Quote Originally Posted by Mastablasta View Post
    Because it was fun to play with and against other people. Since then, people have played a billion other MMOs or WoW, and the thing they're looking for today is not simply the novelty of playing in a "persistent" online world with other players. The value of that died out long ago. Now people expect it to be possible to solo all kinds of things and content-on-demand is the new black.
    Well written, masta.

    This quoted text is so true and sad. For instance still this day, tl5+ froobs get surprisingly good preparation for endgame froob-raids when they need to team up and do 220+ rk missions for xp. Most of them are very much decent players when they hit 180+, might have gimpy equip, but they sure know how to work in a team.
    Last edited by Junttius; Jul 29th, 2010 at 01:55:19.

  20. #200
    Quote Originally Posted by Kamathefixer View Post
    Go play an FPS then.

    Many people who play mmo's dont play for JUST pvp. Sure, there might be quite a few players who LOVE it. But, you can't pvp without pve.

    For those "Whiners" who complain about seperating pvp from pve, what do you think your doing right now?
    And you think I don't? But the point is, I still enjoy playing with and against others in a persistent world, not the random killing, however fun, you get in FPS games.
    Who said I, or anyone at the time I talked about, played just for pvp? Pvp was an integral part of the game, not some sideshow activity. The game had very little else in it, and the conflict between sides was what kept things cooking. Since then we got SL which removed pvp from the game, and most of you people have never seen the game when the cities were crowded and clan and omni were clashing in grand battles.
    And I know perfectly well that I'm "whining" about the seperation of pvp and pve, but I would be doing this from a rational standpoint of experience and understanding of design. Thus it's not a whine. The whine is when you just cry because you're too gimp to understand how to fight and got owned by some guy when you didn't expect it and that was the worst thing ever, because it wasn't pwning on demand.

    Quote Originally Posted by notcrattey View Post
    Because clearly EVERYONE is about the peeveepe. More people care about the state of the game as a whole, such as population and beginning experience.
    And as you could read in my post the game was much better off when pvp was an integral part of the game rather than a sideshow. Not to mention the fact that fun pve also requires balance between things. Back when we needed large groups of players who all knew a thing or two about fighting and doing things on time, pve was more risk ladden than it has been for years. If you failed too much, your raid would fall apart. Now, you can just get another person and do the raid with if the other one leaves. Exageration, sure, but almost true. Maybe 2-3 more people and you're set to go.

    No balance means no risk means no fun. If certain professions are so overpowered compared to others, then some will never be played by people and we see an even greater seperation into powergroups where you have no room for anything but the perfect setup. And in the end, we don't really want that for your every day fun, since that's part of overall game health, which is the one thing I've cared about above all else since I started being an active member of this forum, but have received no end of flak about fanboyism And really, it's amusing how you people can sit here and go on in your fanboy ways and keep a straight face when I recall the past.
    Thor Mastablasta Hammersmith - Level 220, AI 30, LE 70 Clan Atrox Nano Technician - Setup
    The Red Brotherhood

    I'm a Nano-Technician, don't ever expect me to fight unbuffed, alone or fair.

    Means: about f'ing time :P
    Satenia: heresy <3
    Znore: Mastablasta <3
    Kinkstaah: I have agro from many mobs ;(
    Madarab: we are aoe class, we are supose to use pistols
    Marxgorm: the NT toolset does not fit into my raiding tactics

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