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Thread: Friday with(out) Means: July 23rd, 2010 - Insert Creative Subtitle Here

  1. #101
    I think that I would be more cynical if it were not for the fact that missed deadlines and sometimes optimistic promises were not something that is common within the videogame industry, or indeed the software industry in general.

    Given the scale and complexity of the projects involved, it's unsurprising. Very small things can create very large delays.

    I for one would rather see some form of communication. Better to sometimes be ill-informed than uninformed.

    Until then I shall enjoy playing the game I paid for, in the form I knew it was in when I made the payment.
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  2. #102
    As has been said we weren't lied to, they just didn't get things done by when they expected to have it done. It sucks but it happens. Also they never said with these different things that they will be finished on or around the given date. It was always that they hoped to have it done by around then.

    People were after them for a date, so they gave one they thought they'd hit. They didn't and now people are after them again. Which would be why Means said he was told he was crazy for doing that sort of thing.

  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by Mastablasta View Post
    Lie is a strong word. You're dealing with something that's not easy to designate time tables for and in a product where you can't really whine about anything.
    One of the responsibilities of almost any company is to come up with accurate timelines for their product releases. Hard or not, it's their responsibility to get it reasonably close. I have seen Funcom fail this responsibility as many times as they have succeeded, if not more.

    Also, what you may consider to be a whine may actually be a valid complaint on the poor performance of a company. In this case, we are discussing the poor performance of Funcom's ability to timeline. Whining on the other hand would be akin to repeatedly screaming for a minor nano change that affects only a small population. It is more selfishly focused instead of taking into consideration the needs of the whole community.

  4. #104
    /lft Horsekill Raid (WTB New Engine LR)


    seriously though, love the new atrox head Its the kinda face you point a shotgun at if they knock on the front door.
    wtf happened to my avatars eyebrows?

    I used to listen to Dubstep in the 90's... every time I connected to the internet.

  5. #105
    Wow its good to hear some balanced discussion and a bit of humour on the forums. I think it must be Summer Vacation and the average age has increased
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  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by Ukblizzard View Post
    Is it just me that finds an Atrox that is smiling THAT much an incredibly scary thing?
    That is how we all look when pressing Mongo Rage button

  7. #107

    Wink

    Quote Originally Posted by Superflare View Post
    That is how we all look when pressing Mongo Rage button
    Mongo Rage should have a blind after it's run. After all Atroxes all get sooo depressed after the high ;p
    Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
    Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
    The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
    The ceremony of innocence is drowned.

  8. #108
    I just think alot of people confuse estimations with promises.

  9. #109
    oh trust me a lot of people do that crude, but at the same time some promises that have been made since 2006 or before that have been forgotten have made me not to believe it until it actually comes ingame, but the promises of the current AO dev team has been coming through and if it dont they have been telling us why it cant happen and thats one thing that people dont see happening
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  10. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by Anarrina View Post
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  11. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by Lektronik View Post
    One of the responsibilities of almost any company is to come up with accurate timelines for their product releases. Hard or not, it's their responsibility to get it reasonably close. I have seen Funcom fail this responsibility as many times as they have succeeded, if not more.

    Also, what you may consider to be a whine may actually be a valid complaint on the poor performance of a company. In this case, we are discussing the poor performance of Funcom's ability to timeline. Whining on the other hand would be akin to repeatedly screaming for a minor nano change that affects only a small population. It is more selfishly focused instead of taking into consideration the needs of the whole community.
    That's the same deal you get every time "you should set deadlines, if I didn't hit mine I'd be fired" and so on. Well, hey, this is different from your job or that other job you heard about. Hard to understand much? Obviously, since it's all we ever get. "it's this way for me, so it must be for everyone else too".

    If we compare to other companies in the business, then FC is no better or worse in general. That's how it is, and that's how it's probably going to keep on being. In IT in general I think I've yet to see any larger project stay within its deadline constraints. Unexpected things happen. It's not building a house or running a sales statistic for your boss before 12. So stop comparing it.
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  12. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by Sheffsammie View Post
    I think that I would be more cynical if it were not for the fact that missed deadlines and sometimes optimistic promises were not something that is common within the videogame industry, or indeed the software industry in general.

    Given the scale and complexity of the projects involved, it's unsurprising. Very small things can create very large delays.

    I for one would rather see some form of communication. Better to sometimes be ill-informed than uninformed.

    Until then I shall enjoy playing the game I paid for, in the form I knew it was in when I made the payment.
    Delays are fine. But have you noticed the pattern of

    -Promise
    -Nothing happening in months or even an update on it

    They sometimes don't even tell us about these delays and don't even speak of it again, and seemingly avoid the topic. If there was a delay we'd like to know why.
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  13. #113
    aka bait and switch

    we pay monthly subscription fees. when we are promised some new feature, that entices us to continue paying. when they don't deliver, we have been cheated.
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  14. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by Mastablasta View Post
    That's the same deal you get every time "you should set deadlines, if I didn't hit mine I'd be fired" and so on. Well, hey, this is different from your job or that other job you heard about. Hard to understand much? Obviously, since it's all we ever get. "it's this way for me, so it must be for everyone else too".

    If we compare to other companies in the business, then FC is no better or worse in general. That's how it is, and that's how it's probably going to keep on being. In IT in general I think I've yet to see any larger project stay within its deadline constraints. Unexpected things happen. It's not building a house or running a sales statistic for your boss before 12. So stop comparing it.
    I have to agree. Working with code is far to fluid an operation to be able to set any kind of realistic solid deadline. There is no "Well I need to type out 5 pages of financial records and I can type at 110 words a minute so it'll take me this long" kind of statement you can make to your boss or your customer.

    That they're trying is, as Means said, insane. It certainly takes a lot of guts, or very selective hearing, to put yourself out there and announce a hope when flak from such statement is more guaranteed then death if that hope doesn't work out.
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  15. #115
    I repeat. Some people mistake estimates with promises.

  16. #116
    I work with IT myself, both as systems administrator and programmer, so i know full well that estimations are quite hard to make, and ofc. harder the longer and more advanced a system is. A big program like this is quite advanced.

    However, when passing the estimations by a longshot some explanation is in order. It could be that a small change caused a domino effect, or maybe that the new engine works rather well (wasn't it feature complete half a year ago?) but that they want to remodel/retexture an area to show it off in all of it's glory, and making some hacks to push out a video isn't really worth it?

    If that's the case you could ofc. prioritize the order of things so e.g. Newland gets finished and you can shoot a video there.
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  17. #117
    Stop with the "IT" comparisons, please. You may well see projects slip when they are for internal consumption, it is almost expected that budgets will be off. Likewise, projects rarely come in both on time and feature complete. Things slide, people know this and while blowing delivery times is bad enough on internal projects, small allowances for the unforeseen are usually forgiven. Not always, but often enough that people almost expect to get away with it.

    That is fine, people understand that. Now how about routinely missing (admittedly self-imposed) "deadlines" for paying clients? You know, the external kind who don't give a rat's ass why a project has slipped or features have been reduced? How long can you fail to meet a client's goals and brush it off as "this is what happens with complicated projects" and expect for them to remain a client?

  18. #118
    Missing deadlines is very common, this is true. On top of that, FC don't have a lot of deadlines since deadlines are specific dates and FC haven't promised any specific dates.

    My personal problem with FC's approach though is more about how they do things, not really about the results they achieve. How long something takes isn't so important to me. The quality of the end product isn't even part of my personal issue.

    I'm more concerned about FC's history of saying something before they should. Before they are sure. This has to do with how players feel about it at the end of the day.

    I feel that FC is often more focused on getting players hooked onto something than making sure that what they say have a practical value for their playerbase. For example, they seem content with saying that they have started work on a new engine without knowing much of anything about that topic other than that they have or will start working on it. For all they know, it could take many years (and it has). For all they know, it may or many not turn out well in the end. They really don't know for sure and history has shown us this. Still, they want to tell the playerbase about it before they are sure about anything because then they know that the playerbase will feel that AO has a brighter future ahead and that it's maybe worth to keep playing.

    But this isn't very practical for players when it ends up taking years. Same thing with profession balance. Saying that they are going to balance PvP and such is perfectly fine but I personally think they need to be a bit more professional about how they reveal such information. They reveal such information before they have started to work out any of the details and as such they have no idea how long it will take and what the end result will be. But they tell us about it because then they know we will feel the same way about AO's future as we did when we heard about the new engine. (I'm not sure that FC is this deliberately manipulative but this is how it comes across for me in the end)

    Again, telling the playerbase these things is basically a good thing but I personally think that FC should know more about the things they advertise before they start trying to hook players onto the concepts.

    I personally, and I therefor expect other people also, feel that when a game company comes out and says that something is in the works, that it's a practical amount of time between now and implementation. As in, it's something to look forward to and something that might keep people playing. The practical time-aspect of this is lost with FC though as players get excited, keep playing and look forward to something that has been announced, only to find that it takes years for it to be implemented.

    And that's my problem with it. How many people are expected to play a game for many years? Telling a playerbase that something cool is gonna happen and then not get it done within the average amount of time that a player will play the game (6-12 months?), is basically just stringing them along.

    I know some of you are thinking "but they didn't set a date for it, it will take however long it takes!"

    Well, that is true but my point is, FC should be more professional about what information they release and when. They should know more about what the end result will be and how long it will take until completion BEFORE they start boasting about it. If they don't know any of these things, then they should keep their cards closer to their chest until they have some practical info to give the current playerbase.

    And this has nothing to do with how many are working at FC, how difficult working with old code can be and all that jazz. It has to do with being considerate about the people you are providing information to. This issue goes well beyond just the engine and balance though. Similar issues can be found with AoC and so on as well.
    Last edited by Wrangeline; Jul 25th, 2010 at 21:24:46.
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  19. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrangeline View Post
    I'm more concerned about FC's history of saying something before they should. Before they are sure. This has to do with how players feel about it at the end of the day.
    Look at this situation now, bitch bitch bitch - that's what you see. Why? What for? For information, people are demanding information.

    "Why's Funcom silent, why can't they give us release date, why can't they..."

    What do you think they'd do if Funcom were to give into the pressure and give some information that, due to it being rushed, could be wrong? That's right, they'd bitch and bitch and bitch when it turns out to be wrong.

    Damned if they do, damned if they don't. It is not a fair position to put Funcom in.

    Either accept that their information may end up being wrong or accept that you won't get information until they can be sure of it's validity.
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  20. #120
    Quote Originally Posted by Ayria View Post
    Either accept that their information may end up being wrong or accept that you won't get information until they can be sure of it's validity.
    I think you missed my point.

    You say it's an unfair situation to put FC in. That players are asking for info and FC being damed if they do give info and damned if they don't.

    My point is that FC shouldn't give info at ALL until they have practical info for players. I don't think FC should tell players about the new engine or such until they have practical info to give. This strategy is not possible now since FC has already let the cat out of the bag. Way to early.

    I'm saying they let the cat out of the bag before they were ready to do so. And that's not a fair position for them to put the players in.

    Part of my point is that FC should not give info if they don't know if it might turn out to be wrong or not or if they have no idea what the timeline is. The professional thing to do is to make sure and then tell the playerbase. If FC can't give practical info to the playerbase, then that's not considerate to the playerbase.

    Of course players are "bitching" and demanding more information. That's not the playerbase's fault, that's FC's fault. FC should never ever expect any other reaction from the playerbase when they dangle a carrot in front of people by saying "hey, we're gonna update this and that!" without knowing anything about the timeline or the end result. After a few years it would be absolutely insane not to expect a reaction from the playerbase.

    FC should not reveal the existence of an important project like new engine or such until they have practical information to back it up with. IF they don't have practical info to give, that players can depend on, then they should not reveal the existence of the project yet at all.

    You say that players shouldn't demand info from FC because if the info is "rushed" then it might turn out to be wrong and so the players will fault them for that. Well, that's the thing here. Players did not demand info about the engine or any of the other things that FC has been bringing to the theoretical table in the last few years. FC brought that info out themselves, in a RUSHED manner and now FC is starting to catch negative feedback because of it.

    FC started with the rushed info. It was never and it's still not the players fault. FC created this problem for themselves.
    Last edited by Wrangeline; Jul 25th, 2010 at 22:35:45.
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