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Thread: Friday with(out) Means - August 13th, 2010: Friday the whatnow?

  1. #141
    i really dont want you to redesign the gamefield, but if it was in ICC near the BS terminals, and ppl could *watch* from outside there would be more motivation and fun all around

  2. #142
    Quote Originally Posted by Ikarus View Post
    . Besides, it takes only 12 people to start a BS, with neuts being interchangeable. That's not that much, really.

    good joke. ymmd...

    6vs6 with such small level ranges killed 90% of the bs level ranges from the start...

    bs should be something that runs all the time in all level ranges...even if it's 1vs1 - IT SHOULD RUN...
    -[nitr0]-
    sexiest trox alive

  3. #143
    Not sure if anyone mentioned this, didn't have time to read 8 pages of text but...

    Why not disallow anyone from entering the new playfield with 'Deserter' running in NCU, and only let them stay in the playfield if they are signed up to BS (Much like teams can only stay in instanced raid areas, and get removed when they aren't teamed). If they refuse to enter BS they get removed from the playfield and get a deserter, stopping them from entering BS OR the new playfield.

    The new playfield has been said many times to be nothing more than a 'waiting room' until BS starts. Anything else would hinder the BS population on all TL's so much that it would barely run. All those fully geared PvP'ers with millions of spare VP keep BS running, but they wont join anymore if they have a much better PvP zone...
    'Fbwhitey' : 220/26 Nano NT [PvP]
    'Garnerana' : 220/22 Trox Keeper [PvM]
    'Zinc' : 220/30 Trox Doctor [PvP]
    'Whex' : 171/22 Trox Soldier

  4. #144
    Yeah, we know. That's why most if not all battlestations run all the time. Wait.. they don't...

    //

    6vs6 with such small level ranges killed 90% of the bs level ranges from the start...
    You could say the same while advocating for PvP content. If AO was full of PvPers there wouldn't be a problem to find at least... 12? When compared to the number of active (logged in) players this number is indeed very tiny.
    The occassions where there are just exactly 12 players in a horribly screwed relation don't seem that usual to me. This would be a "cheap" solution that kills an aspect of a sided conflict.
    A Battlestation with 2vs2 wouldn't be much fun at all, especially in lower levels without the needed runspeed to traverse the long corridors. The whole 4-capture point thing wouldn't result in much pvp, besides camping at the CPs. Just more running around.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nitr0
    bs should be something that runs all the time in all level ranges...even if it's 1vs1 - IT SHOULD RUN...
    Having this Lobby seems to be a good solution for lower numbers of players, to get things at least started or active.
    A bullet may have your name on it, but a grenade is addressed To Whom it May Concern.

  5. #145
    ur points would be valid if everybody would be 220 after starting isle and there would be nothing except endgame. but that's not how it is.

    the new lobby would work if people of all level ranges would end up in a pvp scenario, but as it looks like it won't... and having a lobby for tl7 waiting for bs only... sorry, but that's a lot of wasted developer time for nothing.

    seperating the lobby from the bs - even worse... it might kill the last 2 bs ranges that are actually running by splitting the population...


    apart from that: new player in ao comes, figures out there are battlestations - thinks: UUH COOL, WANNA TRY... but nothing happening, except an invite in 78hours ending "not enough players"...

    what was killing the battlestation from the start in AO was the following:

    1. stupid 6vs6 requirement
    2. too long waiting, because of full tl7 battlestation or uneven numbers, while having no overview
    of how long it might take, aso... not instancing it was a strange idea. making one bs for all 3 servers would have
    made it a success from the start.
    3. bugged queue and the not enough people kickout thing
    4. only one map layout, that is HEAVILY relaying on runspeed - a second map more suitable for all level ranges and lower numbers would have saved a lot
    5. unshared victory points - yes - they should be account wide... people should be able to go to
    pvp with the toons they want to pvp with, that are equipped and all that... and not being forced to play cannonfodder for twinks with every new toon needing something.
    there is absolutely NO MOTIVATION in going to bs with a 210ish enforcer or sth, to get the weapon u need... and while u are there forcing urself to play like that and cursing ao every single second, loosing motivation in ao - u would have loved to be there with ur 220 agent or sth.
    but u can't...because ao forces u to go there being chainkilled with toons u never ever want to do pvp with...
    (yes, ofab is 90% PVM equip...don't forget)


    all of that would have been easily fixed within the working hours that now have been spend on a lobby that does the opposit of what it was supposed to do apparently.
    Last edited by nitr0; Aug 15th, 2010 at 15:00:15.
    -[nitr0]-
    sexiest trox alive

  6. #146
    best example why wait until 6vs6 makes no sense atm at rk2 150-174ish bs...

    since like 2 hours or sth there are 5 to 9 omnis in queue and like 3 to 5 clans...
    not enough - ok... but in those 2 hours like a dozen toons logged in, checked if bs is running and logged out again...

    if it would just run, it would be like 10vs10 atm, every bet.
    but like this... nothing, people waiting, people getting bored, people logging and when it starts people doing something else and declining invite.
    -[nitr0]-
    sexiest trox alive

  7. #147
    an orgmate mentioned this yesterday, and I agree with him; "if people could sign up for battlestations from anywhere, and see the queue of both omni and clan, it would solve alot of issues with bs not running. why not have an item, like what traders have for checking gms, that can be used to check and sign up for bs, from anywhere."

    now, I'm kinda paraphrasing what he said, because i didnt copy and paste, but its pretty much accurate.

    having to run to a specific location, only to find out theres 3 people standing around is irritating. having this happen everyday makes it feel pointless to bother checking. bs is fail atm, partly because of how we have to sign up. i wanna be able to check queue and sign up from anywhere. if i can get warped from anywhere (including SL) if i accept a bs invite, why the hell can't I sign up from anywhere, and see the numbers of both queue lines. seriously, ffs, why?
    wtf happened to my avatars eyebrows?

    I used to listen to Dubstep in the 90's... every time I connected to the internet.

  8. #148
    Here's my thoughts how these pvp zones could work together:

    New zone doesn't drop VPs (or extremely low amount) - this ensures that Battlestations are the best way to obtain VPs.

    The new pvp zone drops profession specific items that require solo pvp titles to use! What the items are, that's for devs to decide. Each profession would have it's own nodrop unique item and to gain those, you'd need to fight in this new pvp zone to get it... each solo pvp rank would allow higher ql of item to be used.

    Also this new zone would be the place to gain (buy/loot) the "Remote battlestation sign-up beacon" that "sends a shuttle at your location for pick-up when battlestation starts"...
    [220/30/70] Fixer, [199/24] Shade, [150/20] Trader, [150/19] Crat, [136] Fixer, [71/6]Agent, [60/6]Enforcer + bunch of other alts

  9. #149
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrangeline View Post
    You still don't get what I'm saying. I will state this as clearly as I can now one last time and then that's it. No more ping pong
    What you were saying is that VP and what not gets it going and and that pulls in more people once it's seen to be going. Although as I said that is only if VP does have that effect, which doesn't seem to have. Any time they boosted the VP there did not seem to be a marked increase in activity versus what there was just prior to that increase. If VP did have a distinct gathering effect, there would have been.

    In the case of people only there for dailies they go in for one round and then leave. If AO had a large population that would be enough to get it going often enough, but AO doesn't have a large population. So that would only get one round every so often going. A BS would need to be going for more than one round before it can attract people too well as just one round with many only in there for the daily won't cut it as they won't be there for the next round.

    Then as I said you can't bring up other games, especially one like WoW into this as AO is so very different than such a game. Even if it may work in one it doesn't mean it will work in AO. So long as there is such an extreme difference in capacity from a decked out PvP twink and the average or non-PvP twink char brining anyone into a PvP zone won't work. Not just anyone will have fun in such a situation here in AO.

    That's a critical point being missed by this general cattle call method. If anyone pulled in has at least some sort of chance then it can work. Although if many of those pulled in will go insta splat when put up against some solid PvP twink it just won't work.



    This sort of thing is a bit like a car dealership that tries to attract more people with something else. First they do regular BBQs. People get a free burger or such and as they eat wander the lot and maybe the odd person considers buying something. That's not uncommon but what has happened with BSs is if they took the food thing to the point of a full four course meal with engaging live entertainment either for free or a low cost. Aside from the odd car here and there which people can buy it looks like a typical restaurant now rather than a car dealership.

    Sure maybe the odd diner gets a car but many just want the cheap/free food and entertainment having absolutely no interest in buying a car. At the same time though some people that just want to buy a car stop coming as they don't want to deal with that whole dining experience thing. They just want to buy a car or get it serviced and that's it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wrangeline View Post
    3. As I said before, how EFFECTIVE these "gasoline"-things are to any MMO is besides the point I was making.
    How effective VP and such is to the function of BSs is very, very important. You can't just say that's it's function but it doesn't matter if it servers it well if at all. Then this isn't right after the first VP increase and they're still evaluating the effectiveness, this is years later. We can see the effect and effectiveness now, so it's not about original intent then, it's about intent now after seeing that it doesn't work well.

    You were just telling me what their original intent was. That doesn't matter anymore, their intent now does, that's what I want to know. Of course they thought years ago VP was going to get people in and so on, they even said exactly that before the first bump. I've pointed that out many, many times myself. Although if all this other stuff takes away from BSs as a PvP zone and people coming in for only the VP/dailies are a problem for those that want to PvP there's a problem. If the zone is not of interest to many of those those going only for the VP/dailies there's a problem. As there are problems and more of the same won't fix that they need to try something else for a change.

    If you try something to improve your business but it doesn't get you improvements and doesn't attract people actually interested in your product it wasn't worth doing so you need to try something else. FC hasn't done that though, instead of trying something else they just kept adding more unrelated stuff to a PvP zone to pull in just anyone rather than make it more functional for those that want to PvP in it. That's why I want to know what they're thinking now considering what has happened in this time, not years ago, now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wrangeline View Post
    And just as a sidenote, I do think VP has a big effect on BS in AO. A lot of people do BS to get VP and if those people weren't there, then BS wouldn't run as often. *shrug*
    That's only because BSs have degenerated from a PvP zone to VP/daily mission zone and as the population has been declining. When they cram most of the VP available in the game into that place if people want it that's where they'll largely get it. If people can get big XP/SK rewards and tokens just for avoiding AFK for a stretch they'll generally do it.

    After all this time BSs aren't what they were. So at this point if the new zone is not connected to BSs I'd rather expect many PvPers to just stick to that and ignore BSs. Some that don't like the new PF may try to keep signing up for BSs but when that's found to not function enough to be worth signing up for and they largely only find VP farmers and no real opponents they'll get discouraged. So they will either fall back to towers, tara, give in and go to the new zone, do something else or just quit AO.

    That's all speculation but based on what has been said and people have done it seems the likely result.

  10. #150
    Quote Originally Posted by PhoenixOfAges View Post
    stuff.
    I only read the first half of your post and I stopped there because you apparently didn't read the post you were quoting, so I'm not going to keep ping-ponging in depth replies with you.

    If nothing else, at least read the last part of my post. That part explains the things you once again seem to have missed in this latest reply of yours. I would just be repeating myself for the n'th time if I were to say any more than this now.
    Veteran of Equilibrium

  11. #151
    PvMers remind me ToTW fanatics, when they see any post including PvP. They just explode, blindly believing their truth is single acceptable way.
    i R not spik engrish

  12. #152
    Quote Originally Posted by SSK View Post
    PvMers remind me ToTW fanatics, when they see any post including PvP. They just explode, blindly believing their truth is single acceptable way.
    Oddly enough so do PvPers
    Enter the Information Age
    Proc Descriptions

    Hunt, and be hunted: The Hunting Grounds | Alien Tower Field :Aliens, that really invade!
    Pet argo management: Servants Protection | Expand the Notum Silo :Make it worthwhile


    Rimor
    Tesgri - 220|17|58 (Omni Agent)
    Leara - 220|25|62 (Omni Doctor)
    Ponygirl - 220|25|56 (Omni Bureaucrat)
    Means: "We have done way dumber things than this..."

  13. #153
    Those most rabid are usualy "pvm"'ers tho :P
    Thor Mastablasta Hammersmith - Level 220, AI 30, LE 70 Clan Atrox Nano Technician - Setup
    The Red Brotherhood

    I'm a Nano-Technician, don't ever expect me to fight unbuffed, alone or fair.

    Means: about f'ing time :P
    Satenia: heresy <3
    Znore: Mastablasta <3
    Kinkstaah: I have agro from many mobs ;(
    Madarab: we are aoe class, we are supose to use pistols
    Marxgorm: the NT toolset does not fit into my raiding tactics

  14. #154
    As long as the main idea from fc seems to be to try to create a zone or pf where both pvm and pvp fans can find what they "want" it will not work. Pwmers will ruin it for the pvpers and vice versa. Maybe keep bs as the way to get vp's, and let the new pvpzone be what at least some pvpers have asked for over the last years. Im thinkin of bring back looting, titles you can loose or red names or whatever.
    Another way is to make some kind of skill-o-meter, where amateurs can fight amateurs and experts can fight experts. I have no idea how this could be done, if its even possible. But I know I get tired really fast of dying maybe every 20 second, Im no match for people who knows what they are doing. And as long as I dont want to spend my gaming time farming items and creds for a build that can survive a bit, I am one more that doesnt pvp much. Maybe Im just one, maybe there is several such ones like me who thinks "bah, theres just to much work for almost no fun" and consentrate on pvm with friends.
    Though I probably never will become a pvper, a kind of leveling pvp system will perhaps recruit more pvpers. Or, the ultimate solution, lets get fc to make a new pvpzone or maybe a club or disco or something. Thats bound to help..

  15. #155
    Quote Originally Posted by Demoder View Post
    Personally, I don't do BS unless I have the daily running.
    Why? Because I *HATE* PvP in this game; And I hate the BS PvP even more. If I'm going to spend ~20 mins on something I hate doing, I want to be guaranteed having a reward for it.
    I'm pretty sure quite a few feel this way.
    Same. I can't really grasp the concept of having to grind about 80k VPs on my enf 1 daily at a time, but hey, that's how it is. If there was ANY other way I could get VPs solo, I'd do it. LE missions are a joke. Not only don't they happen, the VP there is next to non-existent and that's not even mentioning the utterly retarded way they are gained. I hope the intern who came up with the idea for this place is long gone and is never allowed near a pc again.
    Why play melee when crat pets can do your job?
    Quote Originally Posted by Wyldebeast View Post
    Simple, why the melee hate?
    Quote Originally Posted by Means View Post
    ...Melee people/pets are needed...

  16. #156
    In other MMO's I have played (well, at least one of them), there were armor and weapons and such that you could only get through PvP. A lot of PvP. What made things different in that game though, compared to AO, was that the gear you got through PvP had stats on it that suited PVP a lot more than PvM. So PvP'ers could get PvM armor and PvP with that if they wanted or spend a lot of time PvP'ing and get gear that was mostly a bit better than the PVM armor... but only for PvP. Meanwhile, PvM'ers could get all the good PvM gear they wanted purely from PvM.

    In AO, gear received through PvP not only rivals PvM gear but many pieces are quite simply a LOT better than the PvM options. For example, if a PvM soldier enjoys being a GOOD tank in PvM, then he would feel like he is missing out on something huge by not getting the +5% reflect backarmor via PvP.

    I think perhaps the main problem with PvP in AO atm is that the old title system is no longer part of the game and so that kind of excitement and progression in PvP is gone. The new title system doesn't do much good because you can't lose anything, you can only gain kills. So there's little thrill left. This thrill that used to make AO PvP so exciting (for some people at least) has been replaced with rewards that are more suited to PVM gameplay.

    It's a bit late to do anything about these things now perhaps but I personally think it sounds interesting to take out these "PvM type rewards" from PvP and replace it with something that only PvP'ers are interested in and provides that primeval excitement that the old title system used to provide.

    I guess what I'm saying is that "rewards" for PVP'ers, be it loot or just mental excitement, doesn't actually need to include anything that PvM'ers feel they NEED to have for a complete PvM toon.

    I would be very interested in a discussion about what this new "reward"-system could be. If it was only about loot, then what stats would these items have that PvP'ers would like to have but PM'ers could easily go without? This kind of loot-reward would have to be based around stats that matter in PVP but doesn't matter so much in PvM. The problem atm is that pretty much all combat-related stats matter just as much in PvP as they do in PvM. Some changes to basic game mechanics might be needed in order to separate PvP stats and PvM stats a bit. It's because of this complicated stuff that I personally think a more mental "reward-system" for PvP'ers would be better. For this, one would have to think a bit outside the box. But anyway, this is a topic for a different thread. I'm rambling at this point
    Last edited by Wrangeline; Aug 15th, 2010 at 23:37:14.
    Veteran of Equilibrium

  17. #157
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrangeline View Post
    I think perhaps the main problem with PvP in AO atm is that the old title system is no longer part of the game and so that kind of excitement and progression in PvP is gone. The new title system doesn't do much good because you can't lose anything, you can only gain kills. So there's little thrill left. This thrill that used to make AO PvP so exciting has been replaced with rewards that are more suited to PVM gameplay.
    And yet we still have so called PvPers complaining about dual loses being visible.
    Enter the Information Age
    Proc Descriptions

    Hunt, and be hunted: The Hunting Grounds | Alien Tower Field :Aliens, that really invade!
    Pet argo management: Servants Protection | Expand the Notum Silo :Make it worthwhile


    Rimor
    Tesgri - 220|17|58 (Omni Agent)
    Leara - 220|25|62 (Omni Doctor)
    Ponygirl - 220|25|56 (Omni Bureaucrat)
    Means: "We have done way dumber things than this..."

  18. #158
    Quote Originally Posted by Ayria View Post
    And yet we still have so called PvPers complaining about dual loses being visible.
    Ye but that's different. Once you have gained a "loss", you can't change that ever again. Every loss is a stain on your character. Every loss increases the size of that stain. The old title system only shows you what title you currently had, not how much you died or failed in the process. If you lost with the old title system, you could undo that loss by winning again. This is what made it exciting.

    The duel system atm makes a lot of people, that might have liked to duel, stay away from it because they don't want a visual representation of all their failed duels. If duel losses weren't visible, then people wouldn't mind dueling people that they would most likely lose to for fun or for practice and they wouldn't mind dueling people for "giggles" (as opposed to a serious duel between two people that take duel stats very seriously).
    Last edited by Wrangeline; Aug 15th, 2010 at 23:45:21.
    Veteran of Equilibrium

  19. #159
    @Nitr0
    I agree. The lobby would at least mean that the waiting issues can be circumvented with an activity involving PvP and VP. A Battlestation wouldn't be fun with 4 players, so having some kind of lower threshold is actually necessary.
    Those loggin in to check if something was going on could get right into the new playfield and stay in the queue. Having to wait an unclear amount of time for the action to begin clearly sucks. In short: I do prefer the lobby idea to be continued. Further spreading seems counterproductive.

    Most of your points are valid. I wouldn't like to see VP accessible account wide, though. There are already some professions ranking significantly higher in the popularity than others.
    OFAB clearly is heavily skewed towards PvM. So there should be realistic VP gaining methods for PvMers, too. Not as fast as on BS - but not that unearthly slow like those clumps.



    @Wrangeline
    I don't get the new title system, too. It feels like more of an opportunity grind to me. What's PvP without the possibility of loosing? Displaying duel stats seems just like a novelty, would be more fun to just identify a successful duelist by his title.
    The idea behind the old system was really good.
    A bullet may have your name on it, but a grenade is addressed To Whom it May Concern.

  20. #160
    Quote Originally Posted by Kintaii View Post
    At any rate we now have at least one more person in the world who knows that the thing really does exist.
    Shenanigans, y'all are bots, we all know it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kintaii View Post
    Like "make Macrosun cry" territory.
    Shhh, don't tell anyone, but this is your favourite, isn't it?
    Quote Originally Posted by Brucelee2003 View Post
    If someone thinks he can win by dirty tricks - he totally wrong.
    Quote Originally Posted by Chrys View Post
    Damn nazis
    Edit: No Annarina we're not talking about you this time...

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