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Thread: Friday with Means - August 20th, 2010 - Enforcers + Fixers

  1. #101

    Funcom employee

    Again, on runspeed: Runspeed will be adjusted. Lower level characters will run faster, higher level characters will run slower. The runspeed curve will become much more normalized and with a higher cap. We don't wanna make lower-level characters slower; quite the opposite. And at the end of the day, the professions with the most runspeed will have the advantage - As it was intended to be from the start.
    Brad L. McAtee / Kintaii
    Former Senior AO Designer & Jack of All Trades
    (2007 - 2012)
    ~~ Twitter :: Facebook :: Norse Noir ~~

  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by Kintaii View Post
    Again, on runspeed: Runspeed will be adjusted. Lower level characters will run faster, higher level characters will run slower. The runspeed curve will become much more normalized and with a higher cap. We don't wanna make lower-level characters slower; quite the opposite. And at the end of the day, the professions with the most runspeed will have the advantage - As it was intended to be from the start.
    hope your right and understand that the community believes anything less than the speed at which you move with 1k runspeed is too slow (I would argue thats its some around 750)

  3. #103
    Everything is 4 hour duration now? Wow...that's lame.
    Because Race Yalm

  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by Kintaii View Post
    Again, on runspeed: Runspeed will be adjusted. Lower level characters will run faster, higher level characters will run slower. The runspeed curve will become much more normalized and with a higher cap. We don't wanna make lower-level characters slower; quite the opposite. And at the end of the day, the professions with the most runspeed will have the advantage - As it was intended to be from the start.
    I really hope you guys know how important run speed is in pvp... because I don't see a fixer being killed by melee profession in this current state of the rebalance.
    Harios - [Enforcer] cookies 220/30
    Advass - [Adventurer] nerf 220/21
    Wackios - [Shade] gankzsz 220/16
    Soldios - [Soldier] FA Burst 220/22
    Docios - [Doctor] healsplxz 220/20
    Cratios - [Bureaucrat] tape 220/19
    Proud Board Member of Dark Front Cookies >> Bacon, remember that!

  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by MajorOutage View Post
    Everything is 4 hour duration now? Wow...that's lame.
    But it's balanced cause they're practically removing effective OSBs.... right?
    Enter the Information Age
    Proc Descriptions

    Hunt, and be hunted: The Hunting Grounds | Alien Tower Field :Aliens, that really invade!
    Pet argo management: Servants Protection | Expand the Notum Silo :Make it worthwhile


    Rimor
    Tesgri - 220|17|58 (Omni Agent)
    Leara - 220|25|62 (Omni Doctor)
    Ponygirl - 220|25|56 (Omni Bureaucrat)
    Means: "We have done way dumber things than this..."

  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by Fixietrox View Post
    hope your right and understand that the community believes anything less than the speed at which you move with 1k runspeed is too slow (I would argue thats its some around 750)
    [troll = on]

    We do? I don't remember seeing a survey being done.

    [/troll]

  7. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by Lektronik View Post
    [troll = on]

    We do? I don't remember seeing a survey being done.

    [/troll]
    To troll effectively you can't announce it.

    And yes I do believe the majority of the comminity believes this some may even think higher.

  8. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by Fixietrox View Post
    To troll effectively you can't announce it.

    And yes I do believe the majority of the comminity believes this some may even think higher.
    *swoooosh*

    I hope that didn't hit you in the head on the way over.

  9. #109
    I change my mind after actually going over the nano documentation extensively. WTB profession change options if this is how FC feels is the proper way to make professions balanced.
    Last edited by Gatester; Aug 21st, 2010 at 04:39:05.

  10. #110

    Angry

    This absolutely sucks, fixers with swimspeed??? Those pasty blue computer nerds spend alot of time at the beach? no wai!

    Doctors, with there in-depth knowledge of bio-chemistry should be able to use the knowledge to actively pursue a nutritious diet enabling them to maximise their energy output and buff their median swimspeed!!

    GIF JUSTICE OR I REROLL!!!

  11. #111
    Well fixer can swim isnt the prob,

    I am still waiting funcom explaination of why Parrot(a bird) can swim
    Ceenah 220/30/66 PvM NT @ Newcomers Alliance
    Eeenah 199/0 Froob NT @ Newcomers Alliance

  12. #112
    Wow, the fixer changes look sweet! Thanks guys
    ALTS: Alienhunter, Moonglum, Quellist, Quellcrist, Jesharet

  13. #113
    I could have missed something but with the new Fixer SL garden warps just requiring the key quest completed instead of having the key equipped what happens to Neutrals who may have completed both quest?
    Malcom Ciafardoni
    Circle-G Inc. - The Past. The Present. Your Future.

    I'm not a gimp, I'm a trade skill Trader.

  14. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by Whealer View Post
    I could have missed something but with the new Fixer SL garden warps just requiring the key quest completed instead of having the key equipped what happens to Neutrals who may have completed both quest?

    I'm guessing a dialog box pops up and asks which garden you want to go to.

  15. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by Lektronik View Post
    I'm guessing a dialog box pops up and asks which garden you want to go to.
    I'm guessing it crashes both zones.

    Anyone else?


  16. #116

    Funcom employee

    Quote Originally Posted by Whealer View Post
    I could have missed something but with the new Fixer SL garden warps just requiring the key quest completed instead of having the key equipped what happens to Neutrals who may have completed both quest?
    We're trying to address that one in a rather unique fashion - Just waiting on code support (initial feedback from Macro sounds positive) before we make our plans known/finalized. =)
    Brad L. McAtee / Kintaii
    Former Senior AO Designer & Jack of All Trades
    (2007 - 2012)
    ~~ Twitter :: Facebook :: Norse Noir ~~

  17. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by Phargus View Post
    I'm guessing it crashes both zones.

    Anyone else?
    Haha...I like that one better.

  18. #118
    This is copied from the enforcer forums. It is long but I think FC needs to actually pay attention to what they did where 3 professions see massive love and 1 profession sees the opposite. If FC is hiding something that makes this better than what it really is, they should start revealing it quickly or they will hear nothing but grief from people that actually understand what was done.

    Essence line:
    Old max health from buffs ~ 34500
    New max health from buffs ~ 15500

    Now viable in all situations both pvm and pvp, but over a 50% reduction in total max health. I felt our max health buffs were excessive though, and made gear sacrifices for PVM almost irrelevant with current support strength. NCU is also irrelevant as a viral compiler is no longer needed, thus freeing up space. We are able to maintain our str and stam buffs while using large max health buffs as well, which is a benefit I did miss.

    Insta cast, four hour duration, and no worries about recasting.

    Side note, +700 max health for a level 5 enforcer!!! You are gonna give my level 1 a hell of a lot of work to take those bastards

    Mongo line:
    Healing has remained relatively the same, 510 healing per 2 seconds. The possibility to cast mongo during one of the refresh points will not alter healing as the previous versions could be cast in the same manner.

    The max health buff was removed which also removes the max health "damage" that casting the buff would cause.

    Taunting (mongo+single taunts):
    Taunting values previously: Imp. Mongo taunt 326,086 per minute / Single taunt 600,000 per minute
    Taunting values after documentation changes: Mongo+Single combined taunt 540,000 per minute

    Chain casting nano cost previously: Imp. Mongo 11021 cost per minute / Single taunt 7980 cost per minute
    Chain casting nano cost after documentation changes: Mongo+Single combined 19980 cost per minute

    Taunt levels from Mongo+Single taunts is actually increased during actual use. If the taunt proc from Ice Burn is removed, then taunt levels might decrease slightly, but there are some damage increases in our documentation as well as a slight increase in the Dreadbringer taunt that may counter this.

    The nano cost is very high, but can be mitigated by PVM choices that favor % nano cost reduction and the use of nano regain stims or perks. Teaming with an MP, Trader, NT, or Keeper would likely cause the chances of casting difficulties to diminish. If changes are made to Nano Delta however, the nano cost would be impossible to maintain without the assistance of other professions or changes to the effectiveness of stims.

    Dreadbringer line:
    Minor increase in taunt value. Has no pvp function.

    Nemesis Nano:
    Player taunt that can redirect attackers towards the enforcer. No duration likely indicates that target only switches aggro and does not lock the attacker onto the enforcer for a set time. If the melee damage effects players and not mobs (or both) then it becomes an incredibly strong pvp nuke.

    The 120 second cooldown makes it difficult to use readily, but still gives enforcers a start towards additional uses in pvp. The cooldown is likely because of the nuke, and if so I would prefer a 15-20 second cooldown in exchange for no damage, this would make an enforcer extremely compatible as a pvp supporter in a team.

    PLEASE PLEASE, be sure that this nano would not, in some way, be able to target an MP's heal pet and cause it to attack the enforcer.

    Damage Shield line:
    Removal of taunt proc on Ice Burn. Slight increase in damage shield value.

    Would have preferred a taunt proc on all levels, but it might not be necessary although it made the line interesting. A much larger damage shield that might block absorb use as well could be a nice option to diversify enforcer defensive preferences.

    Emergency Absorb line:
    High level absorb with short duration. Has a team effect and appears to effect the enforcer as well. Self damage effect would be effected by pvp damage cap making the maximum possible damage 30% of an enforcers max health.

    Great addition to make enforcers a necessary part of team/mass pvp. A support effect with the equivalence of Shadowbreed strength that will have definate use for zerg/anti-zerg rushes. It will undoubtedly be used as an emergency nano in PVM as well, with the collector instances final wave or the last wave of Hollow Island as obvious areas where it will be welcome.

    For solo pvp or duels, the absorbs effect will allow players to make use of the capping damage rule to possibly mitigate the self-damage. I am unsure if absorbs can also reduce the self-damage caused by this nano, but it would likely be irrelevent without enough max health+absorbs to reduce damage (bio cocoon or endurance booster). This nano will be valuable in duels to increase the time enforcers can survive, but will be unreliable for other solo pvp situations.

    Absorb line:
    Current absorb values: 17690 absorbs per minute* (at capped cast speed)
    Perk documentation absorb values: 8000 absorbs per minute

    Absorb amount per minute does not include casting any other buffs. Capped cast speed of absorbs currently requires adjusted aggdef or rage to be running while at full defensive. Absorb loss overtime from chain-casting only absorbs is 9690 absorbs per minute.

    This is an enforcer's main way of mitigating damage in PVM and PVP. Spamming the absorbs allows enforcers to handle attackers with multiple damage types much more easily, especially considering the sheer amount of damage enforcers take currently (second only to doctors). With this level of absorb reduction enforcers will be nerfed severely in defense where they were already incredibly low in strength.

    Supplemented by the nerfs to enforcer runspeed, and thus the professions survival, enforcer defensive strength is greatly decreased even with adjustments to Aimed shot, which were only truly a threat from agents (a profession whose offensive potential with Aimed shot will likely increase making them more dangerous for enforcers).

    If the values of these absorbs are not static, and thus effected by body development as was hinted for a possible effect on bio cocoon, then the damage to enforcer defenses may be non-existant. The values, however, would have to nearly triple the current levels to actually improve an enforcers current ability to mitigate damage, which the current documentation does not allow for more than a brief moment.

    Team castable versions of these absorbs would also have been appreciated.

    PVP Fear line:
    Removal of PVM duration and AAD reducers. 160 second cooldown prevents chain casting in pvp and pvm.

    Long lockout on a nano used by experienced enforcers in pvm excessively makes the nano useless in pvm. The snare would be slightly beneficial in pvm but not entirely necessary as a mob effected by a long duration fear would have a large distance from the enforcer, and the snare could in fact cause the mob to hit the enforcer from a larger distance.

    In pvp, the nano is slightly useful but is little more than a gimmick. In mass pvp it is nearly useless due to keeper auras, so the best function is to close distance on a debuffer such as a trader. Either way, the lack of improvements to pvp from this line and a massive nerf to fears in pvm is a highly negative change to an already difficult-to-use-without-support profession.

    Brawl and Fast Attack lines:
    Thank you. The damage increase may seem nice to some, but it is actually from the weapon lines so this is another missed opportunity to pull enforcers from the lowest levels of PVM damage. The skills will be nice in pvp and at lower levels for twinking. Unfortunately, our use of brawl without crit modifiers is highly limited in pvm and pvp.

    Weapon Buff lines:
    They now stack, but most of the previous modifiers were added to brawl and fast attack buffs.

    Enforcers still lack significant weapon skill in exchange for large amounts of AAO compared to other weapon based professions. This my seem irrelevant but this lack of weapon skill greatly effects our perk damage, our crit chance, and our abilities to handle our weapons through debuffs.

    Challenger line:
    Cooldown allows for permanent buffing of challenger. Psy Mod is no longer reduced by the nano skill debuff.

    This nanoline works more effectively with our defenses in the current documentation, but it will still cause us to be unable to remove CC tools with rage if we also require this nano to be cast. The AAO is also too low to actually set us apart from fixers, soldiers, keepers, shades, traders, and NT's while their own debuffs or offensive increasers are active. We are not the highest Attack Rating profession, we have no defensive debuffs in this documentation, and I see no increases in our actual damage levels.

    Challenger should either be a long duration buff for such minor benefits, especially when AAO is no longer more effective than weapon skill in pvp, or a massive short term buff option should be included. The nanoskill shutdown should also be removed, core tools should not lock out the majority of a profession's toolset when the benefit is low despite being necessary.

    Rage line:
    Removal of runspeed benefit. 10 second cooldown on an enforcer's only means of CC removal.

    Other means of allowing us to remain in active combat with opponents was mentioned, so the loss of runspeed to developers likely seems excused. The benefit of the runspeed, however, was in that it was the only method, combined with chain casting of this nanoline, which allowed enforcers to survive in pvp what-so-ever. Enforcers are not a defensively strong profession, only a high survival profession that can get out of difficult situations. Even with adjustments to runspeed as a whole, the fact that enforcers will be among the slowest professions means that the profession will have no choice but to fight or die.

    With a CC vulnerability, lowest levels of runspeed, no apparent increases to enforcer offense (current documentation maintains our LE proc reliance) and a massive nerf to our damage mitigation in the current form of the nano documentation, enforcers will be unable to survive most pvp situations. I dread the thought of trying to even approach a debuffing profession.

    Element line:
    Damage type changes can be maintained indefinately. Damage increase removed. Duration is 40 seconds.

    The damage of enforcers seems to be even lower after this nano documentation with it removed from these lines. These nanos are also unecessary in most situations, but would have been much improved if the buff had the same duration as the Martial Artist damage change buffs. The cooldown should also be removed, and allow enforcers to change damage at will so that this line may find more use.



    Overall, thanks for the max health nerfs, it might make all my PVM sacrifices meaningful and we can use our full health in any situation now. Damage mitigation is completely trashed, survival is non-existant, and chances to properly modify enforcer offense levels are so far ignored. I like the thought of helping my teammates in pvp for once, but it seems I won't survive long enough for other players to try to ignore me in pvp anymore.

    I seriously hope there are some actual benefits for a profession that is no where near as strong as these nerfs would have demanded, especially with the three other professions whose documents we have seen recieving massive boosts (keepers gaining engineer level reflects for instance).
    Last edited by Gatester; Aug 21st, 2010 at 04:25:47.

  19. #119
    I have always said that only one that should be able to catch or outrun my 220 fixer (assuming no roots/snares are used) is 220 enforcer in rage.
    Now that rage will be "balanced"...
    <Means> I always laugh when I have to type "/get sex" when debugging

    [Social] Eponyx: I don't drink, yeah it is true. Can you please get that pink moose of the platform. And park the polkadot elephant to reclaim.

    Uaintseenme: This is why i love Test sever so Much.
    I can wake up in the morning and think to my self, "Im going to break AO today" and should i managed to do it, I'll get rewarded for it.

  20. #120
    when i saw that enfo rage had runspeed buff removed, I half expected to keep scrolling down and see a new enforcer "adrenaline/charge/sprint" nanoline, where for a duration of like 5-10 seconds (with appropriate cooldown) an enforcer would gain a sudden surge of speed and an increased crit/stun chance. good thing i only half expected to see a compromise.
    Last edited by SoulTarder; Aug 21st, 2010 at 08:57:38.
    wtf happened to my avatars eyebrows?

    I used to listen to Dubstep in the 90's... every time I connected to the internet.

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