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Thread: New Enforcer Nano Changes

  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by Obtena View Post
    Don't worry, you can be NM or Opi if you want. Actually, I think NM will be a good option for enfos for PVM and even for PVP. I definitely see NM enfos 'outlasting' trox counterparts with their more abundant nanopool.
    I think after balancing enfs of all breeds will have their merits... It's certainly going to be interesting & hopefully fun!

    In the shortish term, after balancing, as he's pure tank, I'm planning to change my soli to opi for the extra static def and the nice blocker from perks (beta genome irc)

    But hey, each to their own!
    Troxxor - Atrox Enforcer - My Ganker [Target]
    Slights - Solitus Enforcer - My Tanker [Target]

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  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by Obtena View Post
    Don't worry, you can be NM or Opi if you want. Actually, I think NM will be a good option for enfos for PVM and even for PVP. I definitely see NM enfos 'outlasting' trox counterparts with their more abundant nanopool.
    And this makes sense at all. How does a breed designed for casting and the manipulation of nanotechnology with their mind factor into the idea of an enforcer. This is completely counter-intuitive.

    On the whole it looks like the atrox breed is becoming obsolete as every advantage an atrox has is available to all other breeds though buffs, items, research and perks. As an avid atrox user I am against this. I like the idea of the breed and would like ot see it have more advantage than mongo rage. MR is pathetic quick fix buff anyway and should have been taken out of game years ago.

    To me it seems the devs have no idea what they are doing with the Enforcer class. The idea that a nanomage enforcer could be viable for anything other than an oddity is laughable. Our toolset is already too "nano" dependent as it is. Why can't e get MA-like stances that make us tank, solo, pvp and adjust our nano costs, defenses and offenses accordingly. Something that sets our combat style for an extended period of time and allows our toolset to change and expand based on that style.

    Edit: I was a bit harsh on the NM enfos out there. I know there are good ones but they are few and very specialized and again take advantage of the pathetic capping special scaling dmg system. I'm not saying NM enfos shouldn't be an option but certainly should be a last option.
    Last edited by fortorn; Dec 4th, 2010 at 12:43:31.
    "Can I have some shoes?"

  3. #83
    It's not ... enforcers are actually rather heavy nanocasters (even moreso if we have the kind of costs I'm seeing). Nanomage is completely reasonable breed for them.
    Awwww muffin, need a tissue?

  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by Obtena View Post
    It's not ... enforcers are actually rather heavy nanocasters (even moreso if we have the kind of costs I'm seeing). Nanomage is completely reasonable breed for them.
    Oh i know i counted. We have over 100 programs.. well over. What I'm talking about is the... sense of an enforcer. What an enforcer really is. I think certain breeds by there story and feel are more suited to some professions than others. When I think enforcer I think trox. Keeper I tihnk solitus. Shade I think opifex. NT i think nanomage.

    I don't think that a toolset already overburdened with nanos should get bigger and make a breed never really intended for the profession a desirable option.

    Edit: Again, I think also making a trox a totally undesirable option as an enforcer is unacceptable.
    "Can I have some shoes?"

  5. #85
    If you think being nanomage is a great idea because of the DtN breed ability you are in for a rude awakening. How fast do you think your nanopool will last? Without the DtN the benefits of being nanomage will fall short of the benefits of being solitus, and the DtN is honestly suicide for any tank that actively takes damage. There are no benefits for having more nanoskills than needed on an enforcer so I really am struggling to see the benefits of a breed that has almost no beneficial trickle for important skills to enforcers.
    Last edited by Gatester; Dec 5th, 2010 at 17:10:26.

  6. #86
    the DtN stuff from nanomage breed would really depend on how all the nano regain stuff gets reworked, NM enfo's would have 1 from their breed line and perhaps NTs and Traders nano regain toolsets will be more potent and possibly the cost reducers reworked for nts and mps.

    That said I can't see Nanomage being a popular choice at all even with high nano requirements and dtn perks etc.

  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by Gatester View Post
    If you think being nanomage is a great idea because of the DtN breed ability you are in for a rude awakening. How fast do you think your nanopool will last? Without the DtN the benefits of being nanomage will fall short of the benefits of being solitus, and the DtN is honestly suicide for any tank that actively takes damage. There are no benefits for having more nanoskills than needed on an enforcer so I really am struggling to see the benefits of a breed that has almost no beneficial trickle for important skills to enforcers.
    55% -cost cap.
    The Fine Arts:
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    The Traitor


    Xirayne: I couldn't care less about who is clueless or what the exact definition "real" pvp is in ao, I want "fun" pvp!

  8. #88
    ^ and larger nanopool. I'm not sure how the obvious advantages of NM are eluding you Gatester but they are real and they appear to be significant based on the costs being presented to us in the latest version of the document.
    Awwww muffin, need a tissue?

  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by fortorn View Post
    Oh i know i counted. We have over 100 programs.. well over. What I'm talking about is the... sense of an enforcer. What an enforcer really is. I think certain breeds by there story and feel are more suited to some professions than others. When I think enforcer I think trox. Keeper I tihnk solitus. Shade I think opifex. NT i think nanomage.

    I don't think that a toolset already overburdened with nanos should get bigger and make a breed never really intended for the profession a desirable option.

    Edit: Again, I think also making a trox a totally undesirable option as an enforcer is unacceptable.
    This is spot on.

    All professions have an 'ideal' breed and for Enforcer it's Atrox. If the changes mean that Atrox isn't the optimum Profession for Enforcer then it will be a crying shame.

  10. #90
    Spot on? No I don't think so. In fact, that kind of thinking is opposite to the meaning of having choices for character creation that are significant and meaningful. There should be advantages for every breed, regardless of the profession and the changes to the enfo nano doc are reflective of that. If anything is a crying shame, it's the fact that Atrox IS the defacto breed for enfos and that other breeds advantages are rather insignificant.
    Awwww muffin, need a tissue?

  11. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by SultryVoltron View Post
    55% -cost cap.
    10% DTN. You are in pande, collector, or APF. How long do you think that nanopool will last with 10, 20, 30+ mobs beating on you? Then that 25% DTN emergency perk would make the pool go away instantly.

    Think about just how much damage an enforcer takes as an AOE tank and get back to me on how a nanomage enforcer relying on DTN is supposed to maintain nano.

  12. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by Gatester View Post
    10% DTN. You are in pande, collector, or APF. How long do you think that nanopool will last with 10, 20, 30+ mobs beating on you? Then that 25% DTN emergency perk would make the pool go away instantly.

    Think about just how much damage an enforcer takes as an AOE tank and get back to me on how a nanomage enforcer relying on DTN is supposed to maintain nano.
    You don't have to perk it...
    The Fine Arts:
    Mime | Surgery | Zen
    The Traitor


    Xirayne: I couldn't care less about who is clueless or what the exact definition "real" pvp is in ao, I want "fun" pvp!

  13. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by Obtena View Post
    Spot on? No I don't think so. In fact, that kind of thinking is opposite to the meaning of having choices for character creation that are significant and meaningful. There should be advantages for every breed, regardless of the profession and the changes to the enfo nano doc are reflective of that. If anything is a crying shame, it's the fact that Atrox IS the defacto breed for enfos and that other breeds advantages are rather insignificant.
    Meh, don't be silly Ob. Of course Trox is THE breed for Enfo's.

    Atrox excell in health and heal delta, Opi's excell in agility and evades, Nanomages excell in Nano casting and Solitus are a well rounded mixture of everything. I think we can all agree that with those areas of expertise, Atrox is the one for an Enforcer who's main characteristic has been high Health and the ability to absorb damage.

    Yes, there are and will be advantages to playing other classes and no-one is saying that Nanomage Enforcers shouldn't work but the fact remains that Atrox is the ultimate Enforcer breed.

    Now if your saying that the advantages to being Atrox will no longer be sufficient to warrent them being the number one choice for the profession then steps need to be taken to ensure that they remain at the top.

  14. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by Tanana View Post
    Now if your saying that the advantages to being Atrox will no longer be sufficient to warrent them being the number one choice for the profession then steps need to be taken to ensure that they remain at the top.
    Sorry, why? Just because it's inconcievable that Enfos that aren't atrox can excell in certain aspects of being enfos better than Atrox? Sorry, I don't agree with you and I don't think anyone being objective does either. It's called breed advantages and it shouldn't be dependent on the profession. There is no compelling argument to artificially maintain atrox as the enfo preferred breed.

    And no, just because Atrox have advantageous HP and HD doesn't make them the preferred breed for enfos IMO, especially when that difference is almost insignificant considering equipment and buffs.
    Last edited by Obtena; Dec 6th, 2010 at 19:34:19.
    Awwww muffin, need a tissue?

  15. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by Obtena View Post
    And no, just because Atrox have advantageous HP and HD doesn't make them the preferred breed for enfos IMO, especially when that difference is almost insignificant considering equipment and buffs.
    Sigh..

    Which is the problem.

    Theres no argument that if you roll a NM Enfo you shouldn't excell in nano casting and shouldn't run out of Nano Pool ect ect. IMO though these shouldn't be areas that you NEED to excel in to perform well as an enforcer. The standard Enfo model should be based upon a Trox's ability to achieve high health and absorb damage while being able to cast thier nanos and maintain their nano pool. If you roll a NM your going to have less problems with managing your nano pool but should be severly disadvantaged when it comes to your Heakth and ability to take as much punishment as a Atrox.

    If your saying, which seems to be the gist of your posts, that come patch day NM will be the best breed for enfo then how can this be good?

    And how is making the profession fundamentally different so that a NM is considered THE best breed something that we want to see? If you think Enforcers, tanks, taking damage, you don't imagine a big strong brich sht house or what? I know I do, just the same way as when I think wizard I imagine some fragile spindley dude with a staff.

  16. #96
    I understand the desire to have multiple options for a prof/breed combo.. and there are. The best enforcers by stat are trox and solitus and I personally think Solitus make the best PVP enfos simply because they work without mongo rage.

    However the advantage of a Nanomage is high int/psy nanopool and cost. It comes at a high cost, currently, of too little HP and heal delta.

    With our HP being nerfed in PVM situations quite a bit I still see very real potential problems with nanomage enforcers. Enforcers still have no dmg mitigation. Enforcers still have no heals of any consequence except a battery of them every 4 mins. To me this means nanomage enforcers as well as trox enforcers are going to be at a large disadvantage.

    Troxes won't be able to sustain their nanopool in a fight and nanomages wont have enough starting HP to outlast their target(s) or provide a significant buffer of HP for a doc to heal.

    Our toolset is too nano reliant and with nano costs going up to address the infinite nano "issue" our prof is going to be even worse. Why? Our prof is already one where you are absolutely worthless or perfect, very little inbetween. These changes look like they are going to make that line smaller and move it further to the need for huge gear grinds for every title and endgame will be close to nightmarish.
    "Can I have some shoes?"

  17. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by Tanana View Post
    Stuff
    I'm not going to argue with you about what an enfo should be. There should never be a situation in a game with breed choices where there is only ONE optimal breed for a given profession, regardless of how you want to use that profession. If you can't be objective and see how breed advantages and disadvantages can and SHOULD come into play for enfos, you need to get onboard pretty quickly because it looks like it will be a reality pretty soon.
    Last edited by Obtena; Dec 6th, 2010 at 20:50:19.
    Awwww muffin, need a tissue?

  18. #98
    I can almost understand why 'balance' between professions is needed, although it's becoming more and more apparent that balance is just another word for nerf. But I don't think that we need to balance breeds within professions, more over I feel that it will be impossible.

    No, I don't agree that every breed should be able to function the same. I belive that certain breeds should be tailor made for certain professions and a profession that is supposed to get and take damage should be most suited to the Atrox breed.

    It's going to be hard enough for FC to balance different professions without then having to balance the different breed choices within said professions. It's called setting yourself up for a fall. There will always be one profession and one breed in that profession that comes out on top.

  19. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by Obtena View Post
    you need to get onboard pretty quickly because it looks like it will be a reality pretty soon.
    I don't see what I'm supposed to get on-board with, I'm not a singing monkey. If I have an opinion on something I'll post.

  20. #100
    That's you choice ... you can have an opinion if you want, but it's rather uninformed given the information we are getting from FC. You can have the opinion that the world is flat too. Unfortunately, that would be wrong, much like an opinion that states that any changes should maintain Atrox as the optimal enfo breed. They aren't and they likely won't. You can have your opinion, it's up to you to decide how you want to be perceived stating and maintaining it.
    Last edited by Obtena; Dec 6th, 2010 at 21:35:12.
    Awwww muffin, need a tissue?

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