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Thread: balance and consequences

  1. #21
    I got a question for you Enfo players: If a shade nor soldier can kill a "good" enfo 1-on-1, toe-to-toe, then who can?

    I'm not going to include MA/NT/Advy because they seem to kill just about anyone these days. Seems like only the elite fixers pose a problem to the well-equipped enforcer at TL7 so that's out of the equation considering there aren't many (at least in rk1). Just what exactly is considered balanced for an enfo? Facerolling 80%+ of the game's profs in perks? Obviously the rebalance is going to set limits on defensive/offensive tools. Not just on enforcers, but on EVERYONE. Like I've mentioned before, the whole deed isn't quite done yet. Let's sit back and watch a bit more before we start jumping the gun here, eh?

  2. #22
    well u cant balance around gimps can u?...
    then endgame acn never be baklanced.. i am endgame on my enf. if it should be a balanced game shouldnt i have a chance vs the top solds or the top shades or the top fixers ?
    just cause im complete with my toon and others arnt shouldnt i have the same opportunity to gank those that are at the same stage of gear lvl as i am?
    and on RK 1 i can name several good fixers.
    Pariss, Flaviosan, Solox(who even told me he usually doesnt even bother to buff anylonger cause he owns people so bad), Missosika, etifix just to mention a few... theres just as many endgame fixers as there are endgame enforcers.
    Moonbolt - 220/26/something. Trox Enf RK1 General of Hells Heroes.
    Renswind - 220/21/67 solitus trader.
    Moonkiss - 219/21/something opifex shade.
    Mooncloud - 150/18/somethin solitus MA.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by nitr0 View Post
    and are that massive nerfs (like in enfo case) will just make them go "screw it" and leave.
    Did not know enfos are getting nerfed.
    About time.
    --Clan "Howlin" Messiah



    Howlin banned indefinitely by Gorafk Reason: Clan "Howlin" Messiah

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Hellrule View Post
    seen After8 consistently beat endgame, good soldiers. super enforcer
    Takes a specialized setup to consistently beat soldiers with an enforcer. A setup built around surviving DPS from a low evade profession, and then killing it with an alpha is not the same setup that could ever defeat an MA, fixer, adventurer, etc of a high gear and skill level.

    Good soldiers are also not guaranteed to have the best setup for taking out an enforcer but all soldier toolsets generally have an advantage against enforcers. Then again, if an enforcer kites the soldiers AMS it is almost a guaranteed win, and if a soldier tries to kite the enforcer and does it can be the same situation.

    This is usually why enforcers have a better chance against soldiers on BS, but soldiers are also very hard to kill when they do not stand and tank through AMS downtime and you lack CC tools.

    Quote Originally Posted by Meleny View Post
    I got a question for you Enfo players: If a shade nor soldier can kill a "good" enfo 1-on-1, toe-to-toe, then who can?

    I'm not going to include MA/NT/Advy because they seem to kill just about anyone these days. Seems like only the elite fixers pose a problem to the well-equipped enforcer at TL7 so that's out of the equation considering there aren't many (at least in rk1). Just what exactly is considered balanced for an enfo? Facerolling 80%+ of the game's profs in perks? Obviously the rebalance is going to set limits on defensive/offensive tools. Not just on enforcers, but on EVERYONE. Like I've mentioned before, the whole deed isn't quite done yet. Let's sit back and watch a bit more before we start jumping the gun here, eh?
    So we are not going to compare end-game setups to end-game enforcers? Balance for enforcers is having a way to kill opponents and being killable by every profession. Only three professions have almost no chance of killing an enforcer. Any profession can die to an enforcer, but it is only from being alphad. Even crats require perks to kill after a certain level of gear and skill meaning that enforcers are bound to a single method of killing end game players.

    If a profession has only one way of killing anyone then it needs to be effective. Unfortunately some parts of the enforcer offense are too effective, but so is every profession at this time. The issues come from players who absolutely cannot die to an enforcer when they fail their alpha and then cry for nerfs because the alpha succeeds.

    If it was not for the current strength of the 1he+1hb alpha or access to Mongo Rage, my shade and MA would never EVER die to an enforcer.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Moonbolt View Post
    well u cant balance around gimps can u?...
    then endgame acn never be baklanced.. i am endgame on my enf. if it should be a balanced game shouldnt i have a chance vs the top solds or the top shades or the top fixers ?
    just cause im complete with my toon and others arnt shouldnt i have the same opportunity to gank those that are at the same stage of gear lvl as i am?
    and on RK 1 i can name several good fixers.
    Pariss, Flaviosan, Solox(who even told me he usually doesnt even bother to buff anylonger cause he owns people so bad), Missosika, etifix just to mention a few... theres just as many endgame fixers as there are endgame enforcers.
    You might have a point there, but if everything is indeed true, what would you propose to even out the odds? Generally it appears everyone who does have an endgame enforcer can come to a consensus that they need some kind of active defense. Everyone can also agree that spamming absorbs and what some might call "mongo kiting" just prolongs being killed (excuse my pessimism ).

    What would you, as an endgame enforcer, propose as an active defense? Keep in mind it also must fall within the concept of your profession.. otherwise we might as well let anyone perk into acrobat, right? Feel free to comment everyone.

  6. #26
    as i have said a very long time ago in the enforcer forums i suggested to actually make ACs worth anything.
    ive suggest increased absorbs.
    i have suggested a heavy nerfing of enf alphas for a more sustained dmg form that forced enfs to stick around to fight instead of alpha and run.
    i have suggested a form of absob that absorbs a piece of every hit that hits teh enforcer like for example 600 of every attack would go out into an absorb.
    there is a ****load of different stuff in the lines of "fixing" the enforcer profession that could have been done.
    Moonbolt - 220/26/something. Trox Enf RK1 General of Hells Heroes.
    Renswind - 220/21/67 solitus trader.
    Moonkiss - 219/21/something opifex shade.
    Mooncloud - 150/18/somethin solitus MA.

  7. #27
    I personally think AC's is something that needs an immense overhaul. I mean, sometimes one can completely forget about them because you hardly ever notice the difference in damage in both pvm and pvp. If it weren't that they're the reason armor exists, people would just wear it for the bonuses that come with it. This is something I'd love to see addressed. Poor engies...

    But by all means, continue.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by nitr0 View Post
    atm fully equipped toon(100%) vs fresh powerleveled toon (30%) would have to be 100% - 90%...
    then u would have "balance".
    Difference beetween twinked and powerlvl'd toon could be reduced by 2 things so it is bearable :

    - Changing core mech so that power lvl'd toon are more performant then today (say, win 25% performance here)

    - Reducing the time sink needed to properly twink a newly powerlvl'd toon so that he can cross the gap more easely and arrive @ 90% of the performance of a fully end-game toon (which is in progress allrdy with daily mishes, quest giving XP, AXP mish inc etc).

    Tweaking those 2 factor at the same time should be more acceptable then just artificilly increasing powerlvl'd toon performance by 200%.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Meleny View Post
    I got a question for you Enfo players: If a shade nor soldier can kill a "good" enfo 1-on-1, toe-to-toe, then who can?
    Except they can. I've seen enfs get destroyed by shades very quickly. But since I play soldier I'll talk about that.

    Enforcers with very good setups can stand a small chance vs an equally good soldier. But usually the soldier can just blast away and kill the enf very easily.

    And now after the balancing enfs wont be able to cancel the big hp so they will not stand a chance against a soldier.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Djiax View Post
    Difference beetween twinked and powerlvl'd toon could be reduced by 2 things so it is bearable :

    - Changing core mech so that power lvl'd toon are more performant then today (say, win 25% performance here)

    - Reducing the time sink needed to properly twink a newly powerlvl'd toon so that he can cross the gap more easely and arrive @ 90% of the performance of a fully end-game toon (which is in progress allrdy with daily mishes, quest giving XP, AXP mish inc etc).

    Tweaking those 2 factor at the same time should be more acceptable then just artificilly increasing powerlvl'd toon performance by 200%.
    OMFG you are a commie!

  11. #31
    but in the end it's the only thing they can do... boost toons with minor equip and nerf those who got everything.
    else there will be no way to balance it...

    and i doubt ppl will like it, because that takes away a big part of what ao is =)
    -[nitr0]-
    sexiest trox alive

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Noobius76 View Post
    Except they can. I've seen enfs get destroyed by shades very quickly. But since I play soldier I'll talk about that.

    Enforcers with very good setups can stand a small chance vs an equally good soldier. But usually the soldier can just blast away and kill the enf very easily.

    And now after the balancing enfs wont be able to cancel the big hp so they will not stand a chance against a soldier.
    That wasn't really what I meant.. perhaps the wrong choice of words and phrasing on my part. We know soldiers eat enfos; there's just no way an enf can stand there and tank more than 3 Full auto's on top of ams. Shades can also chow on enforcers given that they're both not OSB'd. Same situation with enf vs. sold. You can't tank a shade's quick-recharging alpha more than three times at most.

    What I was trying to point out is: Why is it wrong that a soldier or shade kills an enforcer in a one-on-one, non-kiting fight? Given AO's rock-paper-scissors mechanics as is, ofc.
    Last edited by Meleny; Aug 23rd, 2010 at 19:44:17.

  13. #33
    just figured they are going the "let's level lock everything" way on fixers.
    yes, WOW is successfull, making AO a game of level locks will make AO... disappear for sure.
    -[nitr0]-
    sexiest trox alive

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Meleny View Post
    That wasn't really what I meant.. perhaps the wrong choice of words and phrasing on my part. We know soldiers eat enfos; there's just no way an enf can stand there and tank more than 3 Full auto's on top of ams. Shades can also chow on enforcers given that they're both not OSB'd. Same situation with enf vs. sold. You can't tank a shade's quick-recharging alpha more than three times at most.

    What I was trying to point out is: Why is it wrong that a soldier or shade kills an enforcer in a one-on-one, non-kiting fight? Given AO's rock-paper-scissors mechanics as is, ofc.
    theres nothing wrong with the fact that shades and soldiers destroyes enfs.
    the whole discussion was started from shades that complain they cant hurt enforcers wich is utterly bull****.
    like most of the people here on forums whining about enforcers the people that stated the argument is prolly just undergeared and dont know how to handle their toons.
    and everyone that keeps whining here seems to forget that enforcers doesnt have easy mode vs all professions enforcers already have alot of issues in pvp.
    but its so much easier to crie OP then realise that it might be vs the profession u got as a main since it is a rock paper scissor system.
    nvm its all good....
    im starting to get realy tired of people thinking that an enf can have MR + 3800 AR + 3200 def and 45k HP + all our perks have a 50 % check.. both the 1hb and the 1he and we always cap that SA and our dimach has a 30 second not 30 min recharge.
    cause that is the picture u whiners are trying to point of enfs endgame enfs.

    tho it is true that enfs can reach 3800 AR and 3200 def they can only reach one fo them at once and if they go for the def setup they wont have MR or higher then 3100 ish AR w/o procs.
    Moonbolt - 220/26/something. Trox Enf RK1 General of Hells Heroes.
    Renswind - 220/21/67 solitus trader.
    Moonkiss - 219/21/something opifex shade.
    Mooncloud - 150/18/somethin solitus MA.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Moonbolt View Post
    everyone that keeps whining here
    ofc, as you don't keep on doing it

    Quote Originally Posted by nitr0 View Post
    making AO a game of level locks
    some stuff are already level locked in AO, & not everything will become at rebalance ...

    in my opinion that kind of control shouldn't be used on every elements or you end up with a boring stepped gamed (like Wow wich is a game i dislike on several levels - but anyone is free to like it).
    oppositely there was for sure a proeminency of OSBs at low level making the fights harder to balance & artificially boosted. also there was a certain lack of self RS.

    so level locking hot & RS in a better curve of RS among level seems totally acceptable on paper. let's wait to see it implemented ...
    Bitnykk/Bittorrent - young RL of AP & old emissary of CODE

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Meleny View Post
    I got a question for you Enfo players: If a shade nor soldier can kill a "good" enfo 1-on-1, toe-to-toe, then who can?
    Really? Did someone say that?
    Awwww muffin, need a tissue?

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by bitnykk View Post
    ofc, as you don't keep on doing it


    some stuff are already level locked in AO, & not everything will become at rebalance ...

    in my opinion that kind of control shouldn't be used on every elements or you end up with a boring stepped gamed (like Wow wich is a game i dislike on several levels - but anyone is free to like it).
    oppositely there was for sure a proeminency of OSBs at low level making the fights harder to balance & artificially boosted. also there was a certain lack of self RS.

    so level locking hot & RS in a better curve of RS among level seems totally acceptable on paper. let's wait to see it implemented ...
    one consequence just shooting thru my mind: tl1-2 pvp, oh an orb! let's all run with 100rs...
    "oh noes..."...
    -[nitr0]-
    sexiest trox alive

  18. #38
    Nitro I understand your angle and I'm sure some people will be less than happy with the upcoming changes, however most MMORPGS have situations such as this where some professions may become slightly more overpowered at their time in comparison to some others. Most of the time a "perfect balancing" is just not possible due to the nature of gameplay in these games. It might be best to either accept it that way and reroll another character for the time being (optional), continue living with this reality, or leave. But expecting this to have a radical change is expecting a flawless balance and mechanics....in my opinion, we wouldn't do them justice to expect that.
    Unlimited "Millerna" Rifleworks (220 / 30 / 70) Agent

  19. #39
    i really wonder how many ppl will stay, when the game they are addicted to ain't what it used to be anymore. i mean core parts - like buffing lowbies hnq and all that stuff...

    when u have to learn "the game new" concerning nanos and stuff will be a perfect point to leave for all those who are just around because they are so used and familar to ao, that they just kept on going until now.

    my feeling tells me they will have to merge rk1 and rk2 after "balancing"
    -[nitr0]-
    sexiest trox alive

  20. #40
    So you're saying that we're a bunch of conservative twits who don't want any change no matter how good it is and how much better the game becomes after it? I quite recent that, and you don't find many people more veteran than me.
    Thor Mastablasta Hammersmith - Level 220, AI 30, LE 70 Clan Atrox Nano Technician - Setup
    The Red Brotherhood

    I'm a Nano-Technician, don't ever expect me to fight unbuffed, alone or fair.

    Means: about f'ing time :P
    Satenia: heresy <3
    Znore: Mastablasta <3
    Kinkstaah: I have agro from many mobs ;(
    Madarab: we are aoe class, we are supose to use pistols
    Marxgorm: the NT toolset does not fit into my raiding tactics

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