Friday with Means - September 3rd, 2010 - Battlestation changes

[Ebondevil]

Personally I think it's interesting to see how many are opposed and how many are for the suggested changes, quite a divided viewfront all together, personally I'm for the changes for a number of reasons.

First it should help players who haven't got much opportunity to enjoy the battle-station, there's a feeling that the BS's at certain Ranges don't run, so no one signs up and thus they don't run, this change shakes that up and that alone should help them run more often.

Secondly I've seen a lot of people complaining about how level 200 is so much more overpowered and the new resultant twinks are just going to rofl-stomp all the TL5 tower twinks, my thoughts on that are two fold, firstly 'Ha ha, about time' not very nice of me I know, on a more serious side of that argument, the twinking has gotten out of hand, it's far to expensive and the gap between twink and non twink is far too large, shaking things up there might annoy the twinks but the rebalancing is going to do that anyway, at least I would hope so or it's in vain. Secondly if the 200 toons were so overpowered then why aren't there already a legion of them rofl-stomping the TL 5 tower toons?

Masta suggested it and Solox bumps it, but Solox didn't get that Masta want remove all fields below ql 175.here

I think removing the lower level towers would be a bad idea, personally I'd prefer they removed the PvP level restrictions on the towers so a 220 toon could attack a level 10 tower field (that's not to say they could attack level 10 toons in that field however). That would forever remove the problem of 220's ruining the TL 1-5 tower scene because it would all be TL 7, if the TL 7's cared about the fields in question.

But then I'm also of the opinion that anything before 220 is part of the levelling experience and that permanently stopping a character at a level before that is a sign that general game balance is broken.

It should never be a disadvantage to gain a level.

[Armus]

First it should help players who haven't got much opportunity to enjoy the battle-station, there's a feeling that the BS's at certain Ranges don't run, so no one signs up and thus they don't run, this change shakes that up and that alone should help them run more often..

So by making BS much more imbalanced you think it will run more often?

Secondly I've seen a lot of people complaining about how level 200 is so much more overpowered and the new resultant twinks are just going to rofl-stomp all the TL5 tower twinks, my thoughts on that are two fold, firstly 'Ha ha.

This is the core of the matter right here. Pvm'ers despise that they lose to pvpers who have chosen to setup their toons specifically for pvp.

Pvp for a pure pvmer in ao is less than 1% of the time since you farm your vp and gtfo of bs never to return. Yet you can't be big enough to let the guys who dedicate their toons for pvp.

Pathetic to say the least.

, about time' not very nice of me I know, on a more serious side of that argument, the twinking has gotten out of hand, it's far to expensive and the gap between twink and non twink is far too large.

Since when did 300 combined get cheaper than ql 225?

, shaking things up there might annoy the twinks but the rebalancing is going to do that anyway, at least I would hope so or it's in vain. Secondly if the 200 toons were so overpowered then why aren't there already a legion of them rofl-stomping the TL 5 tower toons?.

1. Tl5 wars rarely ever happen already becayse getting owned by tl5's is no fun at all. Which is why the numbers of tl5 twink killers aren't super high already. Tl5 pvp happens rarely. However. if there were an active BS for these twink killers however.. then there would be alot more "fun" for them to have. Which is why 200 twinks will be plentiful.
2. The current twink killers are usually around level 207. Not many are needed. 1-2 will completely deter most tl5 forces. I know this by personal experience on both the attacking and defending side. th

I think removing the lower level towers would be a bad idea, personally I'd prefer they removed the PvP level restrictions on the towers so a 220 toon could attack a level 10 tower field (that's not to say they could attack level 10 toons in that field however). That would forever remove the problem of 220's ruining the TL 1-5 tower scene because it would all be TL 7, if the TL 7's cared about the fields in question.

But then I'm also of the opinion that anything before 220 is part of the levelling experience and that permanently stopping a character at a level before that is a sign that general game balance is broken.

It should never be a disadvantage to gain a level.

Yeah let's force the large community that enjoys lowbie pvp/towers/twinking into the totally broken tl7 range. I know my entire org will vanish from this game will happen. GG

[Gridpain]

But then I'm also of the opinion that anything before 220 is part of the levelling experience and that permanently stopping a character at a level before that is a sign that general game balance is broken.

It should never be a disadvantage to gain a level.

I would like people to understand that not everybody likes the same things than others.

Dont ask for PvP to be removed because you like PvM, and opposite.
Dont ask sub 220 activities (PvP, PvM or RP or leet race ... or anything) jsut because you cherish your 220(s)

"stopping a character at a level before that is a sign that general game balance is broken"

Seriously ?
So what about level lock dungeon ? shoud they be opened to 220 ?
Let s compare SoM and Totw ? which one has real activity ?

AO is game big enough, and populated low enough to be able to share with sub 220, no ?

(I wont even comment on the removing of PvP lock to allow 220 to be able to attack any LQ of CT... )

[Ebondevil]

Since when did 300 combined get cheaper than ql 225?

I said nothing about levels, I was talking generalities, twinking is too expensive.

This is the core of the matter right here. Pvm'ers despise that they lose to pvpers who have chosen to setup their toons specifically for pvp.

And the Gap between PvM and PvP is too large at the moment. Which discourages PvM'ers from casually enjoying it.

Pvp for a pure pvmer in ao is less than 1% of the time since you farm your vp and gtfo of bs never to return.

I mostly enjoy PvM, and I enjoy the occasional PvP, my primary reason for going to the BS is for the VP yes, but once I have it I still go back on occasion. I also despise 4 capping on the BS because I find it ruins the fun, even when I'm mainly there to get VP.

2. The current twink killers are usually around level 207. Not many are needed. 1-2 will completely deter most tl5 forces. I know this by personal experience on both the attacking and defending side.

So what's the point in making a whole legion of level 200 Twink killers?
My point is they don't currently exist for a reason. If people make them and they partake in PvP, well that's more characters partaking in PvP, is that a Bad thing?

Yeah let's force the large community that enjoys lowbie pvp/towers/twinking into the totally broken tl7 range. I know my entire org will vanish from this game will happen. GG

Thank you for confirming it's a sign of broken game balance. If the TL 7 range wasn't 'totally broken' as you put it, which the rebalancing should fix, what then?

I repeat: There should never be a disadvantage to Levelling.

[Animistic]

I dont seriously get these people who dont even seem to play lower level ranges, yet wanna completely demolish them for no sensible reason. You would be just shooting your own leg in the process as many people would leave the game.

[Lusos101]

How bout some reality checking for once?

Reality is that twinking is gone so far as to make it accessible/worth the trouble ONLY for players who can BOTH dedicate a lot of time to playing the game and have done so for a very long time. This means that only a very small percentage of the gaming population actually participates in it. Of those, only an even smaller fraction dedicates their time to PvP. Lets be honest, I have seen many more ToTW or S10 twinks then PvP twinks. PvPers may argue (and they do it like there is no tomorrow) that that is what they like and enjoy and want to do and blablabla without end. But it also means that a very small percentage of the gaming population has hijacked one part of the game for their own benefit. So much that they killed it. Lets be frank here, how many posts say at the same time that NW at level X is dead and that that PvP twinks was a huge investment and they deserve to reap the benefits of that investment? You may adore your PvP twinks and love to PvP all you want. You are few and fewer because you are so effective that nobody else can play. It may be what you like to play, but it is killing the game.

What do you prefer, a lot of twinking that gives only a small advantage and doesnt discourage non twinks to participate or a lot of twinking that allows you to play in godmode all alone by yourselves...for a little while?

And Noobius, PvMers (for the most part) dont despise to loose to PvPers, they despise to be forced into being cannonfooder for PvP twinks. We all know (those who dont want to be blind on purpose) that DUE TO GAME MECHANICS any PvP toon worth the bare minimum of that name is capable of roflstomping almost any PvM toon. PvP between a PvP toon and a PvM toon is just a waste of time. Except for those people with a very strange mentality that takes them into a BS and spawncamp toons without a chance for laughs and/or epeen. And now those same people come into the forums and whine until there is no more cheese, because they are loosing the privileges they shouldnt have in the first place. Now THAT is what I call pathetic. And funee. Please whine some moar, I go get the cheesy.

[Animistic]

Perhaps make some sort of 10k VP clickable items drop from the new Sector 7, so the 'hardcore' PVM crowd who cant be bothered at all to pvp or stop at that level and put somewhat competitive basic setup on for some PVP before leveling, can get their Ofab through pure PVMing.

Because i dont think either crowd needs to be punished for the playstyle and intrests they have in this game.




ps. and talking about reality checks, i provide those to PVMers inside BS whenever i tab some. Youre welcome.

pps. Also i find the pure PVM and PVPer distinction bit silly, since most people nowdays in this game fall in both categories, its just often different ratio of focus on which the player goes more for. Im for example probably around 60%ish of my gametime into PVP while 40%ish to PVM. But that changes depending on what toon im focusing too at the time.

[Gridpain]

oh come on... is there realy someone pointing a gun on your forehead forcing you to get ofab ??

PvM gives you better armor (AI) or decent enough armor for PvM (miy, biodome, DB etcetc)

There only 1 reason that "PvMer" feel compeled to farm BS and get farmed... it's that it is easier to get chained killed and farm VP, than to actualy do PvM ...

/discuss

[Lusos101]

Something here...

Because i dont think either crowd needs to be punished for the playstyle and intrests they have in this game.




ps. and talking about reality checks, i provide those to PVMers inside BS whenever i tab some. Youre welcome.

pps. Also i find the pure PVM and PVPer distinction bit silly, since most people nowdays in this game fall in both categories, its just often different ratio of focus on which the player goes more for. Im for example probably around 60%ish of my gametime into PVP while 40%ish to PVM. But that changes depending on what toon im focusing too at the time.

Neither PvPers nor PvMers need to be punished for anything. But in a game where PvP and PvM are so different there is no sense in putting them togheter. It makes sense to keep them totally separate. It would be better however for the community in general that both where playable by all toons. Because a good part of the gaming population can not or doesnt want to make separate toons. We would all be better if all toons where playable in all content.

Your post scriptum is stupid. You dont give any reality check to anyone. Except for maybe the noobiest noobs nobody goes with a PvM toon (specially a leveling one) into the BS to fight and defeat PvP toons. People do it because it is the only reasonable way to gain VP. You seem to be the one who is clueless. Because you want to be, is my guess. I bet you feel all cool and uber and smart and skilled and stuff when you go to the BS and wtfpwn some "clueless" noob in medsuits. Which is a great excuse for the real lameness of going into a fight that you cant loose and feel all important. I keeled a cocroach the other day, it was "THIS" big. Im a great warrior now.


The PvM and PvP distinction isnt silly. You may be both. But not at the same time. Enjoying both aspects of the game isnt uncommon. Problem is it cant be done at the same time. It would be much more common however if people could do both with the same toons. But that would require changes to gameplay that would make all the "huge horde of PvP fans" who can not even make a BS run, whine so much as to cause the end of the universe and more. The developers wont do it. But they should. Because it would help increase the playerbase and make the forum more fun. Gimme some moar of that whine please.

[Armus]

I said nothing about levels, I was talking generalities, twinking is too expensive..

Actually a top notch tl3 twink for instance cost around 500m. A twinked 220 can easily cost ten times that number. Which is in itself a major reason that for many to choose to play at a lower level.

Anyway. You say twinking is too expensive and you support a suggestion that makes it at least twice as expensive to be competetive in a range that used to be cheap. Doesn't make sense.

And the Gap between PvM and PvP is too large at the moment. Which discourages PvM'ers from casually enjoying it...

Actually a pvp setup toon can do nearly anything a pvm setup toon can. the only noticable difference is dd. Which we have plenty in a pvp setup as well these days. In my opinion it's stupid to make yourself nearly useless for pvp just so you can score a wee bit higher on someones damage dumper. Oh.. remember that you are the one that said the difference is too big. And ppl choose to use the ultra gimpy setups. Noone forces them into that.

I mostly enjoy PvM, and I enjoy the occasional PvP, my primary reason for going to the BS is for the VP yes, but once I have it I still go back on occasion. I also despise 4 capping on the BS because I find it ruins the fun, even when I'm mainly there to get VP.

So here we have it again. Ppl who practically never joins bs is whining that they can't get vp on their tl6 toons and then FC destroys the fun for the ppl who is dedicated to battlestation and notum wars. So stupid it makes my skin crawl.

So what's the point in making a whole legion of level 200 Twink killers?
My point is they don't currently exist for a reason..

I already explained to you why they don't exist. I can't fathom how you can not understand that. 200 twinks don't exist today because their only venue for pvp is tl5 wars which never happen in the first place due to the already broken pvp range.

There you go, again.

If people make them and they partake in PvP, well that's more characters partaking in PvP, is that a Bad thing?.

Honestly..It's been stated about 15 times in this thread alone why it is bad both inside bs and outside. I just.. can't.. understand how you can NOT understand.

Thank you for confirming it's a sign of broken game balance. If the TL 7 range wasn't 'totally broken' as you put it, which the rebalancing should fix, what then?.

Tl7 is broken because it has too many overpowered items/nanos etc. I doubt fc will make it any better. Putting 201's in 220 bs is going to make it so it is all about who has the least greenies. Skill won't matter much if you have bad luck and end up with noob vp farmers who don't give a rats ass about pvp/team play.

I repeat: There should never be a disadvantage to Levelling.

That's because you don't play lowbies and you hate ppl who happen to have fun at those levels.

[Armus]

The PvM and PvP distinction isnt silly. You may be both. But not at the same time. Enjoying both aspects of the game isnt uncommon. Problem is it cant be done at the same time. It would be much more common however if people could do both with the same toons.

Except you can. You may not be able to post the highest dd on som silly pvm zergbot in a pvp setup but you can do nearly anything just as well as a "pvm" setup. While the opposite is not true. You may choose to discard pvp as a whole because you want to eek out that last dd that never really matters. But it's silly to complain about it.

So yeah, you can easily do both. just don't choose to gimp yourself for dd epeen.

[Armus]

I dont seriously get these people who dont even seem to play lower level ranges, yet wanna completely demolish them for no sensible reason. You would be just shooting your own leg in the process as many people would leave the game.

Actually that suits them just fine. They clearly hate ppl just for owning them in bs or whatever. If the hard core pvp group disappears they'll be left with a group of equally gimped, clueless ppl only. That's probably their idea of balance.

[Ebondevil]

That's because you don't play lowbies and you hate ppl who happen to have fun at those levels.

Your whole argument seems to be based on this misapprehension, just because I don't have all my characters listed in my signature, doesn't mean that I don't play Lower levels.

To correct this misapprehension, I have Three accounts, Two of which are full, and only two 220 characters out of the lot.

My shade has levelled since I last updated my sig a few years ago but is still within the TL 5 range. Currently sat at 169 and partaking in the Battle-station.

So I do play lower level character, I work on their gear frequently so they're far from gimp, I enjoy playing them, and I enjoy levelling them after a while. I did not particularly enjoy being 150 chain rooted and getting rofl-stomped by 165's-170s nor would it make any difference if it were 200's partaking in that activity. Except now the 165's-170 twinks have to watch out for the payback, sounds more balanced to me, not less and that is what seems to scare the hardcore PvP crowd, their 'Uber' twinks might start getting pwned by others. I lack Sympathy.

I personally don't see the point in spending 500m or 5bil on making a twink to rofl-stomp others and ruin their fun. Personally I don't think it should even be possible to create set-ups that are capable of that sort of activity. A lot of the time prices to create those twinks have been set by an over greedy community and tend to exclude people more than include them. The whole mentality is something I don't agree with and I find it highly anti-social to be perfectly honest.

So shaking things up and making the game more enjoyable for a larger community is certainly something I can support.

[Armus]

Your whole argument seems to be based on this misapprehension, just because I don't have all my characters listed in my signature, doesn't mean that I don't play Lower levels..

Let me guess, your lowbie pvp toons are "sekrit", that's why you won't list them, right?

To correct this misapprehension, I have Three accounts, Two of which are full, and only two 220 characters out of the lot..

Tell us who your lowbie pvpers are then. Shouldn't be hard.

My shade has levelled since I last updated my sig a few years ago but is still within the TL 5 range. Currently sat at 169 and partaking in the Battle-station...

Yes I think I've seen your shade once in the 500+ tower wards and countless bs's I've done. Incidentally noone else in org ever saw your shade.

So I do play lower level character, I work on their gear frequently so they're far from gimp, I enjoy playing them, and I enjoy levelling them after a while.
I did not particularly enjoy being 150 chain rooted and getting rofl-stomped by 165's-170s nor would it make any difference if it were 200's partaking in that activity..

Except now the 165's-170 twinks have to watch out for the payback, sounds more balanced to me, not less and that is what seems to scare the hardcore PvP crowd, their 'Uber' twinks might start getting pwned by others. I lack Sympathy...

I don't really like expressions like this but.. the word butthurt seems to fit you so deliciously perfect.
Payback from what? Other twinks that happen to be level 200? I doubt pvmers will make much 200 twinks. It will be pvpers who do that. And they will make life inside that bs range even sucker, for everyone. So it won't run at all.

I personally don't see the point in spending 500m or 5bil on making a twink to rofl-stomp others and ruin their fun. .

But others do. And you can count on them to do it at level 200 as well.

Personally I don't think it should even be possible to create set-ups that are capable of that sort of activity. A lot of the time prices to create those twinks have been set by an over greedy community and tend to exclude people more than include them. The whole mentality is something I don't agree with and I find it highly anti-social to be perfectly honest.

Ao is hardcore. But thats what ao is. Take that away and you have nothing but crappy gfx, sound, crappy engine and a tiny user base. In other words ao would have nothing then and that means a fast death.

So shaking things up and making the game more enjoyable for a larger community is certainly something I can support.

So far everything points at the opposite of enjoyment. It points at HUGE imbalances and ppl leaving because of them. Be sure that this will kill the tl5 range inside bs and outside.

[drops]

If the hard core pvp group disappears they'll be left with a group of equally gimped, clueless ppl only. That's probably their idea of balance.

What's the minimum size of your epeen? 10km? Egomaniacs like you make me want to roll a 200, just to enjoy roflplastering to the wall epeen loving idiots the same way those TL5 walking epeens enjoy roflplastering to the wall people that are there to farm VPs.

[Obtena]

Instead of crying about it, a real twinker would be calculating their very next level 200 PVP monstrosity. I love the irony that tower people don't have a problem rolling huge numbers of twinks for towers, but when you only need one or two for BS, it's ruining your PVP game. I guess some people haven't learned to PVP self buffed yet? Or maybe you have done it and sucked immensely. Either way, I'm not sure what you are afraid of, other than being challenged appropriately in a PVP encounter. Doesn't sound like a 'hardcore PVPer' attitude to me.

PS. Glad I never leveled my 149 agent

[Obtena]

If the hard core pvp group disappears they'll be left with a group of equally gimped, clueless ppl only. That's probably their idea of balance.

Right, because everyone that leaves are the only people good at twinking and PVPing ... That's pretty funny ... the hardcore PVper's I would image don't really care what level they can do it at, as long as they can PVP.

[Ebondevil]

Let me guess, your lowbie pvp toons are "sekrit", that's why you won't list them, right?

Tell us who your lowbie pvpers are then. Shouldn't be hard.

I don't have any 'Dedicated' PvP Characters, I have characters that I play, and work on as the mood takes me, if there's PvP available I'll try and have some fun. As I'm not on any of the lower bots dedicated to PvP I find it's rarely available, as a result I don't PvP much. When I do I'm generally alone or with my org.

Generally though I find the PvP attitudes of people in general to be a deterrent and I generally don't have fun even when I do go. 4 capping on the BS being one of those deterrents, spawn camping on the BS another.

The more things stagnate the longer people have to 'perfect' their twinks and the bigger the gap gets between the casual PvP'er and the hardcore twinks. Shaking things up with the BS changes will help remove some of that gap simply because it will cause people to change their no-longer-perfect Builds.

The other reason I strongly approve of this change is because it shows that the developers are willing to change things around and shake things up, change is almost never a bad thing. Stagnation on the other hand leads to boredom.

[Soliphus]

Obtena & Ebondevil = clueless fanbois?

First of, making the ranges bigger wont make the BS suddenly active. Ppl PvP at TL5 for a reason, it is the most balanced TL. With the new ranges, they will all be insanely imbalanced (except TL7 if the rebalancing don't fail(admit it, even if they manage to balance TL7, they arent going to be able to do that at every TL)). What FC should do is balance first, and not 99% of it at TL7.

Obtena:

People currently don't make lvl 200 tower twinks cause they get wtfpwned by lvl 220s (d'uh).
Many of the ppl you bash at for being angry, are angry because they are "caster" proffs, do you have any idea how much those proffs suck at TL6? It's IMPOSSIBLE to land drains/roots/snares/stuns/UBT/GTH etc. at that lvl, and since there has been no word of NR being balanced at that lvl, ppl freak out because the fear of their proff becoming useless.
No, not all us twinkers afford to have twinks at every single TL, also twinking is alot cheaper at 150-174 than at lvl 190-200.
People should not be punished for twinking, AO is based on twinking, people play AO for twinking, the only part of this game that is superior to other MMORPGs is the complexity of character building. If you haven't noticed, the other parts of this game is dull and shallow, even free MMOs have more and better raids dungeons etc. but for us AO players clicking on an item to make it equipped simply isnt satisfying enough, thus we twink, and it is the only part of AO that keeps it alive. (I bet that last part fried your fanboi brain, but it is the truth).

Ebondevil:

Most people that have played AO longer than 12 minutes would disagree with you that lvling is the better choice, as I said above, twinkin is 99% of the point most people play AO. Be it frooby sub/totw/fore twinks, Sector twinks or PvP twinks, it doesnt matter, no one would play AO if you couldnt twink. You have to realize that lvlers like yourself is the minority of AOs playerbase, and the masses should always decide what happens to the community, theres a reason that less than 8% of AOs playerbase is TL7, after getting a char to TL7 you realize how boring TL7 is and start making twinks!




I love AO, and have loved it for many many years. I can't imagine how you can play AO without twinking, ofc everyone have different taste, but twinking is AOs strong point, if you don't like twinking, why not play another game and leave us twinkers be? (No, I don't mind PvMers, I'm just very pissed atm(for good reasons)) Just cause you don't like twinking don't mean you should ruin the fun for the rest of us. Be relevant. When you want to change something, listen to the opinions of the people that actually uses what you're changing. Stop taking advice from PvMers when it comes to PvP!

BS = PvP related. PvPers like making twinks. Twinkers don't like these changes. <- Take the hint

Balanced or not, PvPers will always demolish PvMers in PvP, no matter what you do, PvMers will always whine about PvP.

When it comes to changing PvM stuff I'd love to hear your opinions. But when we're talking about PvP changes, please don't input your PvM opinions, they arent relevant.

[Obtena]

Obtena:

People currently don't make lvl 200 tower twinks cause they get wtfpwned by lvl 220s (d'uh).

Yeah, I'm aware of that thanks. What does that have to do with BS? Are you one of these guys that thinks PVP doesn't exist beyond towers? That everything PVP have to revolve around NW and changes should accommodate it? Sorry, it doesn't and this change is just one more reminder of that. Twinkers don't like change ... LAWL. Are you eyes open? Do you not see what is happening around you? AO is going to change so much, that you won't even know how to PVP on your current twinks. You and others better get with the program and fast, because statements like "OMG I'm a PVPer, don't change stuff" isn't going to get anywhere next few months. TBH, if you think FC is listening to that kind of logic, there is really no point in even including you in a discussion about it. The whole premise of the re-balancing is to change PVM and PVP. If you aren't there yet, you're just talking history.

You're going to have to make ALOT less sense to fry my brain because I've argued with people much more nonsensical than you are being.