Friday with Means - September 3rd, 2010 - Battlestation changes

[Mekh]

It's only i-win against ppl who have no skills, that refuse to learn and are totally underequipped.

If the difference between twinks and "normal" people was not so huge, it would be more about skill, than about how long you have played the game.

But I suspect you don't really care about the skill part, but only about the kill-part.

[Tazalanche]

This is the thread that doesn't end,
Yes, it goes on and on, my friend.
Some people started posting in it, not knowing what it was,
and they'll continue posting in it forever just because...


(rinse, repeat)

[MassDebater]

If the difference between twinks and "normal" people was not so huge, it would be more about skill, than about how long you have played the game.

But I suspect you don't really care about the skill part, but only about the kill-part.

Its well understood by 99% of people who start playing MMOs that their equipment is going to be underpar, and hence, they are uncompetitive with older/better equipped players. Any multiplayer game you will ever play is going to contain people who have it easier than you, unless you started at launch, in which case you had it easier than them.

[Mekh]

Its well understood by 99% of people who start playing MMOs that their equipment is going to be underpar, and hence, they are uncompetitive with older/better equipped players. Any multiplayer game you will ever play is going to contain people who have it easier than you, unless you started at launch, in which case you had it easier than them.

Of course... What I'm saying is that the difference is too big in my opinion.

[Insane666]

If the difference between twinks and "normal" people was not so huge, it would be more about skill, than about how long you have played the game.

But I suspect you don't really care about the skill part, but only about the kill-part.

i wouldnt offend noobius with accussing him he's more about kills then skills, at the lvl range i used to fight him his prof of choice is hardly flavor of the month+9 lvls lower then the general BS NewB poppulation


but hey, i guess its easy and convinient, you dont agree with his point of view call him a kill farmer yeah?

I just heard from somebody who was at the Funcom day in Oslo that the proposed changes should no longer be considered a done deal (despite Means' words suggested it). So, if you leveled your twink to 200, you just might have made a mistake...

HALLELUJA!!

[Fixminx]

Of course... What I'm saying is that the difference is too big in my opinion.

Its well understood by 99% of people who start playing MMOs that their equipment is going to be underpar, and hence, they are uncompetitive with older/better equipped players. Any multiplayer game you will ever play is going to contain people who have it easier than you, unless you started at launch, in which case you had it easier than them.

Mostly agree but not 100%, there are games where PVP skill counts more than equipment. One I personally know is Guildwars where you can buy bargain basement equipment or pay top dollar for the rarest and nicest looking gear, either way they still do the same thing stats wise. The only difference is the levels of the equipment. So PVP and PVE is 95% skill 5% equipment. Everyone regardless of time played can have an equal chance of winning but vets will likely look cooler doing it :-)

I agree with Mekh, the difference is too large. The best player with basic equipment will almost always be outdone in AO by a worse player who has farmed billions of credits or purchased a few billion credits online.

[Armus]

If the difference between twinks and "normal" people was not so huge, it would be more about skill, than about how long you have played the game..

Show me any sport for instance where someone who has practiced for years doesn't have a well big, well deserved advantage over someone who begun 2 weeks ago and I shall not argue with you any more about this. But we all know that you can't already

But I suspect you don't really care about the skill part, but only about the kill-part.

I care about fun and team spirit. That's about it.

I can't see how you can argue that twinks are too powerful in relation to leveling toons and at the same time support a suggested change that will make the difference even bigger.

I suspect that you and many of the other supporters simply want an easy way to get back at the twinks for what they did to you in BS.
Yes it's a simple question about bruised egos in ppl who don't want to learn how to pvp well, don't want to work on their toons since they are leveling anyway, and lastly they are in organizations that avoid pvp.
So they get no help inside bs either.

It's sad that you can't accept that someone who is dedicated and skilled should have big advantages over those who are not. Even in a computer game. Truly sad.

That's all I have to say.

[Lusos101]

Sports, a silly comparison, but lets use it. If you play against a player who has a much higher skill then you, will you continue to compete against him? No, because one of you (at least) will get bored fast. You may play against him occasionally to learn, he may play against you occassionally to teach. Then each one of you goes back to where he is competitive and develops his skills.

What happens in AO?
While the game allows for toons to have a huge range of builds, from the infamous "medsuit noob" to the hypersupertwinked PvP specific toon, and including intermediate stages like the well geared PvM leveling toon. It doesnt allow for the separation of the different levels of skill and equip. The result is that the superspecialized PvP toon who can tank and kill a big group of other toons is always the winner. This may be very satisfying for your ego. But it isnt for the other guys, new players or people with busy lifes who can not dedicate enough hours to research and development to make an uber twink. And they give up. The bigger the diference, the more people give up. A small diference and only the really lazy ones will give up. A big difference and many will give up leaving only the ones who really like the game (It becomes a niche game). A huge difference that requires as much as AO does and the only players left are you and a handful of Epeen junkies who love their Iwin buttons. That is the state of AO at the moment in relation to PvP. And it is not my opinion. It is a fact. Proof? See what is left of PvP in this game. Only places where you see PvP regularly is BS, where game mechanics force unwilling players into PvP. The occasional duel, more often between friends to test or compare toons then competitively. And a handful of griefers for lowby towers. The big majority of the small AO population shows absolutly no interest in PvP. In my opinion if we remove the non PvP population for some reason, then the game will close immediatly.

There are many possible solutions to this dilemma. Balancing PvP, REDUCING (not eliminating as you conveniently insist of accusing people) the huge gap between twinks and non twinks and between PvP and PvM toons are some of the most logical alternatives. Other, less orthodox, alternatives, like forcing toons to level (by giving xp even in PvP and removing the XP button) could also be used. What can not continue is to keep things the way they are or even worst, increasing the gap.

[Insane666]

Sports, a silly comparison, but lets use it. If you play against a player who has a much higher skill then you, will you continue to compete against him? No, because one of you (at least) will get bored fast. You may play against him occasionally to learn, he may play against you occassionally to teach. Then each one of you goes back to where he is competitive and develops his skills.

What happens in AO?
While the game allows for toons to have a huge range of builds, from the infamous "medsuit noob" to the hypersupertwinked PvP specific toon, and including intermediate stages like the well geared PvM leveling toon. It doesnt allow for the separation of the different levels of skill and equip. The result is that the superspecialized PvP toon who can tank and kill a big group of other toons is always the winner. This may be very satisfying for your ego. But it isnt for the other guys, new players or people with busy lifes who can not dedicate enough hours to research and development to make an uber twink. And they give up. The bigger the diference, the more people give up. A small diference and only the really lazy ones will give up. A big difference and many will give up leaving only the ones who really like the game (It becomes a niche game). A huge difference that requires as much as AO does and the only players left are you and a handful of Epeen junkies who love their Iwin buttons. That is the state of AO at the moment in relation to PvP. And it is not my opinion. It is a fact. Proof? See what is left of PvP in this game. Only places where you see PvP regularly is BS, where game mechanics force unwilling players into PvP. The occasional duel, more often between friends to test or compare toons then competitively. And a handful of griefers for lowby towers. The big majority of the small AO population shows absolutly no interest in PvP. In my opinion if we remove the non PvP population for some reason, then the game will close immediatly.

There are many possible solutions to this dilemma. Balancing PvP, REDUCING (not eliminating as you conveniently insist of accusing people) the huge gap between twinks and non twinks and between PvP and PvM toons are some of the most logical alternatives. Other, less orthodox, alternatives, like forcing toons to level (by giving xp even in PvP and removing the XP button) could also be used. What can not continue is to keep things the way they are or even worst, increasing the gap.

wanna shorten the gap? ask for easier accessible alien armors, becouse thats what keeping newbies and lazy ppl behind

and who the hell forces unwilling players into BS to pvp? last time i checked no1 forced me to join the que, i did it willingly,,,

if they really dont care about pvp, then:
1. theres other ways to gain VPs
2. theres better gear then ofab for pvm

they only do go there becouse its still lots less effort to get ofab then combined, even if it means afking and letting others steamroll/chainkill you i guess, otherwise there would be no pvmers ever in bs

really. theres nothing else that will ballance stuff as good as easier accessible alien amor, and you wont have to destroy a part of the game in the process

[Gridpain]

(this one's going to hurt...)

You want to narrow the gap between leveling toons and PvPers ?

Remove OST and Kiting ...

[Dutyfree]

(this one's going to hurt...)

You want to narrow the gap between leveling toons and PvPers ?

Remove OST and Kiting ...

Kiting, rofl

[Mekh]

Show me any sport for instance where someone who has practiced for years doesn't have a well big, well deserved advantage over someone who begun 2 weeks ago and I shall not argue with you any more about this. But we all know that you can't already

You're comparing apples to bananas...

If the skill (equip wise) gap between a PL'ed toon in medsuit and a hyper super twink where zero, then what you wrote above would be the case.
That the one "who has practiced for years" should have the upper hand simply due to playing their toon better.


That is currently very, very, very far from the real case in AO.

I suspect that you and many of the other supporters simply want an easy way to get back at the twinks for what they did to you in BS.
Yes it's a simple question about bruised egos in ppl who don't want to learn how to pvp well, don't want to work on their toons since they are leveling anyway, and lastly they are in organizations that avoid pvp.
So they get no help inside bs either.

I could not care less.... Even if I was to get a perma touch of marius buff, i could see no reason to go and do PvP...

This is not about me, but about making changes that I believe would make for a better game, without changing anything about what makes AO unique... For example twinking.

Having the gap between a decent levelling setup and an all out twinked setup lessened from like 200% to 20% would NOT change anything about the twinking...
It would just mean that actual SKILL would matter more.

It's sad that you can't accept that someone who is dedicated and skilled should have big advantages over those who are not. Even in a computer game. Truly sad.

I would accept anyday that someone who was the more skilled should win anytime...
That is however not what I'm talking about.

I'm talking the gap that exists in peoples setup, which is enabled not by skill but more in how long they have played.

[Mekh]

Show me any sport for instance where someone who has practiced for years doesn't have a well big, well deserved advantage over someone who begun 2 weeks ago and I shall not argue with you any more about this. But we all know that you can't already

Actually... Using your Sports example I just thought of a better comparison...
Martial arts in a real world scenario.

Me:
The fighters should be on equal level, so what defines the outcome of the fight is their individual dedication and skill.

You
It is OK that one of them get's built-in steel knuckles and have knifes on their feet if they have practiced Martial arts longer than the other player.



However this is an mmo after all, so having a benefit from farming items and twinking should give a benefit.

1% higher stats would give the "dedicated" player a benefit, but I think that would not be enough to encourage farming and twinking enough (playing the game).

A total offset of maybe 20% would be a significant offset (Just imagine what you would do to get a 20% offset to your current setups!!!)

If would still put the "dedicated" player at a significant advantage, but not more than a good and skilled newer player could kick-ass a bad dedicated old player who have been able to farm for years.

[Luziciona]

...to further stretch the real life fighter example:
150 - 200 BS would mean that players in all middle-high divisions would face each other, regardless of weight, ranking and other stats.
And in AO, being "bigger" also means stronger, faster, more hp etc... and none of the drawbacks...

[Ebondevil]

You're also forgetting that in sports when there is a disparity in skill and people play against each other there are these things called handicaps to make the matches more fair.

[Armus]

Actually... Using your Sports example I just thought of a better comparison...
Martial arts in a real world scenario.

Me:
The fighters should be on equal level, so what defines the outcome of the fight is their individual dedication and skill..

No, not dedication. Dedication (training) is out the window if you limit it as much as you want to. Which means nobody will bother to put in hte hundreds of hours of farming, calcing and twinking needed to reach the ultimate setup.

You
It is OK that one of them get's built-in steel knuckles and have knifes on their feet if they have practiced Martial arts longer than the other player.

That's a really silly and immature way of argumenting. It's perfectly possible to increase your stamina, strength and endurance by a factor of two or more in real life if you exercise several tims a week compared to someone who did nothing.

Actually the numbers are much, much higher than 2x. So no, there is no extra gear needed to reach the improvement levels that you can't tolerate. It can easily be obtained through exercise and practice.
Which is similar to building your toon in AO.

Let's assume they nerfed just about every "good" item in game. Also every good nano and every perk, le perk and put caps on everything much earlier than now. Because this is what you are asking for.

Who would do anything other than leveling? Who would go through the pain of farming ai levels and armour that takes perhaps 100 farm raids for just one set? Who would do the db quest if the nanos were a few % better than the rk nano? Same for the aipf nanos.. who would do those?
Who would finish their research? Who would do pande? Who would do anything in lox?

In short, who would do anything that requires an effort?

Because the best stuff you can get from all the raids coupled with careful planning and many sacrifices made should only ammount to a difference of 10-25% in the end.

Oh by the way, this should ofcourse also extend into a pvm scenarion. Sorry guys, fully twinked endgame toon should only do 10-25% better vs joe sixpacks toon that he put literally 2 weeks into. Sorry.

Through and through this is a silly idea that basically nulifies the whole point of the whole game.

However this is an mmo after all, so having a benefit from farming items and twinking should give a benefit.

1% higher stats would give the "dedicated" player a benefit, but I think that would not be enough to encourage farming and twinking enough (playing the game).

A total offset of maybe 20% would be a significant offset (Just imagine what you would do to get a 20% offset to your current setups!!!)

If would still put the "dedicated" player at a significant advantage, but not more than a good and skilled newer player could kick-ass a bad dedicated old player who have been able to farm for years.[/QUOTE]

[Mekh]

That's a really silly and immature way of argumenting. It's perfectly possible to increase your stamina, strength and endurance by a factor of two or more in real life if you exercise several tims a week compared to someone who did nothing.

Actually the numbers are much, much higher than 2x. So no, there is no extra gear needed to reach the improvement levels that you can't tolerate. It can easily be obtained through exercise and practice.

I know... I'm a former national champion in Ju-jutsu, so I know very well how much training does.


A said earlier a total offset of maybe 20% would be a significant offset, and far more than what people already raid months to achieve from some items.

[Rktim]

Noobius76.... just got.... PWND! Wow.. just.. wow... *builds a small shrine to Mekh*

Also...

I agree with Mekh, a 20% ofset would be pleanty, sure one of the main things i love with AO is that you can equip level 200 gear at level 60 if you work for it.. Well actually.. meh i like both ways.. A change would be nice for its own reason but keeping things as they are would be equally nice in my book... abit conflicted... -.^

[Gridpain]

20% ? 15% ? 100% ?

could people think about the numbers they throw ?

20% between what and what ? full twink vs PLed noob in medsuit ?
"medium twink" vs "decently equiped leveling toon" ?

define full twink, medium twink, "decently equiped" and so on...

Should a full twink win 100% vs a medsuit ?
Should a full twink die 100% vs 2 medsuit ? <= that's anything below 100% difference

I agree the gap between twinks and other is maybe something to rework... but, please, let's not rush into the "number throwning"...

[Mekh]

I agree the gap between twinks and other is maybe something to rework... but, please, let's not rush into the "number throwning"...

That's why I keep using words such as "maybe"... I don't know what would make a sensible amount, I just think the current gap is too big...

I think the discussion as such is more important than the numbers.

Should this be something that FC would be considering at some point, I'm 100% sure they would have their own idea of that.