Weapon requirements based on profession

[Mekh]

Yet they have enough skills to use a title level 7 weapon at 150-170. Is there any justifiable argument for why a 170 doctor can use a Dreadloch Pistol?

Yes, they may be able to equip it at that level, but that does not mean they will become comparable when it comes to offense/damage, when comparing to the same professions you choose to compare them with.

Not that it's really needed, but a justifiable argument could be that it's what it takes for a 170 doc to make semi-decent damage and the fact that for a Doc to get the skills needed to keep it out of OE, they have to use items, perks and armor that are comparable to an enforcer having to wear items, armor and perks that otherwise do not help their primary skills/roll in order to keep their weapon out of OE.

[Saetos]

For the record, I've calculated a Reflex Pistol on a 200 Atrox Adventurer. The usefulness is suspect, as the Burst cycle of 5000 is a bit too excessive, but still a decent Pistol, especially for pre-Shadowlevels.

[Xtremtech]

Aye. Once again for emphasis - it's the performance with the weapon at the given level that is important, not whether you can equip it and keep it out of OE. It's not like all these professions that can equip these weapons that you seem to find so objectionable... are actually seriously overpowered in performance as a result.

You mention MPs equipping tigress, but the MP profession is the most voted for improvement in the survey thread running in this forum. On the other hand you mention Ranged Advies not being able to equip their reflex pistol so easily... when they're really not a profession that's suffering in terms of performance right now.

It doesn't matter that it may or may not be easier to equip these weapons. The important thing is whether the resulting overall performance of that profession is out of balance as a result. In most cases they're not seriously out of balance... and where there are balance issues, it's not as a result of their weapon's stats.

But you also mention the Abandonment of the Xan, which has no profession restriction, as one of these weapons with silly low requirements for their performance that are so terribly unfair.... But the Abandonment has the same requirements and the same stats for all players and any player may equip it.

Any weapon specialist that equips that weapon will have massively better performance with it than the support professions that might use it - with exactly the same equipping requirements. Where's the imbalance in that?

X

[-Klod-]

Correction 1300ish for Hellish Rage. How does that 700 extra requirements feel?

Sadly, I don't have marginally less effective Tigress to equip with only 800 in bow and 400 in AS/fling skill reqs.

Why? If anything, I could simply point out that the offenses of a shield+parry stick MP are actually better than a ranged advy at 170. Before any stupid remarks to that, I have done both, so if you want to argue that the craphander+960 full auto with a Jobe pistol against players with 1300+ dodge ranged at a minimum is better than nukes before HHaB, higher static def and NR, and extensive nanoskill debuffing, feel free to try it.

I guess that's why there are so many level 165-170 MPs out there PvPing, compared to ranged advs. Oh, wait...

[Gatester]

Not that it's really needed, but a justifiable argument could be that it's what it takes for a 170 doc to make semi-decent damage and the fact that for a Doc to get the skills needed to keep it out of OE, they have to use items, perks and armor that are comparable to an enforcer having to wear items, armor and perks that otherwise do not help their primary skills/roll in order to keep their weapon out of OE.

Then should other professions be given abilities that give them the solo capabilities of doctors in pvm? If a doctor needs an option to match the damage of a weapon focused profession, then the weapon focused professions would be equal with a survival toolset that rivals doctors.

The same could be said for crats as well.

But you also mention the Abandonment of the Xan, which has no profession restriction, as one of these weapons with silly low requirements for their performance that are so terribly unfair.... But the Abandonment has the same requirements and the same stats for all players and any player may equip it.

Any weapon specialist that equips that weapon will have massively better performance with it than the support professions that might use it - with exactly the same equipping requirements. Where's the imbalance in that?

X

The abandonment is mentioned because the 451 skill requirement increase for the upgraded version only gives 19 more minimum damage. Despite my enforcer being able to use the upgraded or regular version more effectively than an MP or doctor, an MP or doctor would still outdamage my enforcer with their entire toolset.

Better performance with a weapon does not make up for better performance of a profession. Examples are easy.

JAME soldier is good, JAME trader is better. Soldier uses the JAME more effectively yet the trader still outperforms the soldier.

Neleb rod enforcer is good, Neleb rod doctor is better. Enforcer uses the Neleb rod more effectively yet the doctor outperforms the enforcer.

Onehander+Jobe pistol or peregrine adventurer is...ok, onehander+Amep engineer is better. Adventurer uses...AS more effectively than an engineer, but the engineer has more support with both and outperforms the adventurer offensively.

Dshark soldier is good, Dshark engineer is better. Soldiers can use the dshark pretty well yet the engineer completely blows a soldier out of the water using the same weapon.

If these professions are using the weapons massively better than the support professions, why are they outperforming them?

I guess that's why there are so many level 165-170 MPs out there PvPing, compared to ranged advs. Oh, wait...

I think there are two of both atm.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

Then should other professions be given abilities that give them the solo capabilities of doctors in pvm? If a doctor needs an option to match the damage of a weapon focused profession, then the weapon focused professions would be equal with a survival toolset that rivals doctors.

The same could be said for crats as well.



The abandonment is mentioned because the 451 skill requirement increase for the upgraded version only gives 19 more minimum damage. Despite my enforcer being able to use the upgraded or regular version more effectively than an MP or doctor, an MP or doctor would still outdamage my enforcer with their entire toolset.

Better performance with a weapon does not make up for better performance of a profession. Examples are easy.

JAME soldier is good, JAME trader is better. Soldier uses the JAME more effectively yet the trader still outperforms the soldier.

Neleb rod enforcer is good, Neleb rod doctor is better. Enforcer uses the Neleb rod more effectively yet the doctor outperforms the enforcer.

Onehander+Jobe pistol or peregrine adventurer is...ok, onehander+Amep engineer is better. Adventurer uses...AS more effectively than an engineer, but the engineer has more support with both and outperforms the adventurer offensively.

Dshark soldier is good, Dshark engineer is better. Soldiers can use the dshark pretty well yet the engineer completely blows a soldier out of the water using the same weapon.

If these professions are using the weapons massively better than the support professions, why are they outperforming them?



I think there are two of both atm.

Interesting discussion.

I think this is where FC needs to take a good HARD look at support profs. Like, WTF is a doc doing at TL7 with good offensive capabilities?

Why is an engineer, with arguably the best defensive toolset ODing to the moon, DAMAGE profs like MA?

No question about it, gatester, I've raised the same issue: Only more specifically, about the MBS on an aimed shot pistol. It's the same principle, anyway, support profs are sticking on weaps which in no way should be getting used at the capacity they are getting used at by the profs who are using them.

Aimed shot+Rifle+ long att/rec +partial toolset in other areas =balanced
Aimed shot+pistol+multi wield+fast att/rec+huge toolset not involving AS= OP'd to sh7t

[MassDebater]

Why is an engineer, with arguably the best defensive toolset ODing to the moon, DAMAGE profs like MA?

Maybe because Engineers cant tank as awell, nor have as good support buffs as MAs, or even heals.

[Mekh]

Then should other professions be given abilities that give them the solo capabilities of doctors in pvm?

I never ever use my Doc for soloing... Lots of professions are a lot better for that.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

Maybe because Engineers cant tank as awell, nor have as good support buffs as MAs, or even heals.

omg are you kidding me?

Because engies are one of two profs in AO that have reflects. I'm sure you never get a raid invite because of that. whereas my MA always gets raid invites because damn dude, you can't finish a raid without DF and MoP.

Yes, oh, and I forgot, yes, my heals is what makes or breaks raids.

Good try, but no.

[mocs]

http://auno.org/ao/equip.php?saveid=120329

I assume you did that setup in 5 minutes for replying to notcrattey...

Joshua Khan's Catskin Patch-->MA,fixer,agent,shade??? (in case it still drops)
270 supple is a bit of stressing even for opi (org contracts/Lya patches)
175ish Tsakachumi / 842 rifle with no IP in it? haven't checked tho..
Simple Distance Weapons Guide both clan and omni so again setup is for neutral??
In this case bye bye contracts/high towers.
Case dismissed.

[alderwaran]

maybe you all should make clear whats your focus is on this debate: pvm or pvp

so tell me: whats the use of as for a mp if you cannot hide from the mobs... yeah its a close to pure pvp weapon which is imho easily beaten by a 1hb/pistol im pvm.
how does an engi do so much damage... well he is three hitting the mob (little ref to crats who also can deal a ton of damage)... in pvm, where his oh so uber blockers dont count sh!t contrary to pvp where his pets not able to climb a little step count sh!t.

regarding the doc pistols, because i once had a doc... you really think those will kill you on a regular base, or the docs offensive perkset alphaing you out of your socks, or engis, or mps...?

[Xtremtech]

JAME soldier is good, JAME trader is better. Soldier uses the JAME more effectively yet the trader still outperforms the soldier.

Neleb rod enforcer is good, Neleb rod doctor is better. Enforcer uses the Neleb rod more effectively yet the doctor outperforms the enforcer.

Onehander+Jobe pistol or peregrine adventurer is...ok, onehander+Amep engineer is better. Adventurer uses...AS more effectively than an engineer, but the engineer has more support with both and outperforms the adventurer offensively.

Dshark soldier is good, Dshark engineer is better. Soldiers can use the dshark pretty well yet the engineer completely blows a soldier out of the water using the same weapon.

Your OP point that I was responding to was that the Profession Specific weapons had much lower requirements for support professions and so they were imbalanced. But the examples you quote here don't have a profession specific requirement. The reason the profession specific weapons have the requirements they do is because they're targeted specifically at level ranges for those professions.

The weapons you quote in your examples though (Dshark, Onehander, JAME, Neleb etc) are all weapons that have always been notorious for being weird, out of whack weapons. But even for these kinds of weapon it's important to compare like with like in terms of the levels at which they equip them. Let's take the Abandonment example...

The abandonment is mentioned because the 451 skill requirement increase for the upgraded version only gives 19 more minimum damage. Despite my enforcer being able to use the upgraded or regular version more effectively than an MP or doctor, an MP or doctor would still outdamage my enforcer with their entire toolset.

The requirement is primarily there to set the level range of usage. Since there's no profession requirement, the Enf can equip the item at much lower levels than a doc can. That's especially true of the specials requirements, when comparing to support professions.

The Enf can also much better reach Multi-Melee requirements and weapon combos... 1HB/1HE perhaps? There's no way support professions will support the split AR and extra specials costs well for that PvP 1HE combo. You'll note that the MultiMelee requirement on the Kur'Ush is 550 more... which is a major issue for any support profession... and of course the Kur'ush gives Dimach too on top of the min dmg, which gives better performance and also makes it even harder for support professions to equip.

Compare a 1HB doc at the same level that the Enforcer can first equip the Xan for example, and you'll find that the 1HB doc will be using a much less effective set of 1HB weapons. Then the lack of +damage, multi-melee, speed of specials recycle, lower specials damage, worse AR template etc should kick in on top of that and you should find that the comparitive overall performance should be much more reasonable. In PvP, you need to add in the lack of all the Enf tools that make melee more useful (CC resists, runspeed, efficiency with specials etc) make the effectiveness of a Doc or an MP with the 1HB even weaker.

For most weapon lines, by the time the doc has caught up to the QLs that the Enf was using 30 levels ago, the Enf is now using a far higher QL or using a completely different line or a profession specific weapon that far outperforms the combo that the support prof is now using. Comparing true like with like includes comparing the right levels of using the same weapon too.


There will undoubtedly be some weapons without profession restrictions that have very unusual stats, like some of the ones you've mentioned, that can be used extremely well as one-off weapons in the very latest parts of the end-game by some support professions - or can be used in specific TLs. Often, they'll be more likely to show their best for support professions in the PvM environment only, where the balance issues are less severe or impact less anyway.

However, there are some of these exception weapons, which at end-game may end up being unbalanced compared across to specialists in all environments... but this isn't really about their requirements, rather it's about their stats. Depending upon the levels of imbalance, they should be addressed... but it's their stats that would need addressing, not the requirements.

Your point about requirements doesn't work. With Profession Specific weapons the targeted level range is achieved by the requirements and comparing them across professions makes no sense. With weapons without profession specific requirements, the vast majority of weapons balance well because specialist professions equip them much earlier, use them much better.

X

[Gatester]

I assume you did that setup in 5 minutes for replying to notcrattey...

Joshua Khan's Catskin Patch-->MA,fixer,agent,shade??? (in case it still drops)
270 supple is a bit of stressing even for opi (org contracts/Lya patches)
175ish Tsakachumi / 842 rifle with no IP in it? haven't checked tho..
Simple Distance Weapons Guide both clan and omni so again setup is for neutral??
In this case bye bye contracts/high towers.
Case dismissed.

Was supposed to be Lya Sangi patch, so its more trickle. 270 supple is doable. Rifle would definately be a stretch but there are alternatives with nearly the same benefit such as a Super Queen. You can equip the guides before changing faction, but I am not sure those guides are actually in game for omni or that quality.

What "case" is there to dismiss me on? Even before I reposted this setup and redid the calcs I said in orgchat what I said before, I know exactly how far away from equipping the Tigress a 170 MP is.

[NEPA] Manticorre: people questioning my calcing skills
[NEPA] Apenbot: [Guest] Dagger: I am
[NEPA] Manticorre: I need to check towers daag
[NEPA] Manticorre: last time I calced I was about 100 bow off

I doubt enforcers are 100 points away from 2251 weapon skills.

Your OP point that I was responding to was that the Profession Specific weapons had much lower requirements for support professions and so they were imbalanced. But the examples you quote here don't have a profession specific requirement. The reason the profession specific weapons have the requirements they do is because they're targeted specifically at level ranges for those professions.

Your remark was based on weapon based professions using weapons better than support professions, I disagreed with that and used weapons both could utilize to disprove your point. The fact is, with the exception of MAs, weapons do not make the profession in AO, nanos and perks do.

Now, which weapon that support professions cannot use is giving combat professions a massive advantage that FC needed to fix? I am more than willing to accept that combat oriented professions should have lower DPM than a support profession who wishes to deal damage as well, but claiming support professions deserve these weapons because combat professions have a huge advantage in weapon effectiveness will need some serious supporting calculations.

If these professions need weapons to match the effectiveness of weapon based professions, then what are Pets, DoTs, and Nukes for, and why are they also equipping the weapons with 2251 skill requirements if 1701 is supposedly difficult for them? Weapon advantages should be for professions dependant on them.

[-Klod-]

I doubt enforcers are 100 points away from 2251 weapon skills.

Maybe not, but they already have ridiculously OP'd weapons, easy to equip at tl5.

[Mostadio]

This has got to be a joke thread. Comparing "easy to equip weapons" on casting profs who, until relatively recently, couldn't even train pistol mastery 10 and only have fling in implants is laughable. Some 174 engis have AMEP, that's great. Look at the rest of their toolset tho. Crats got easier to equip pistols because it was impossible to dual wield 300 peregrine 6s. How dare they. I'm not even going to comment on bow MPs. I do, however, agree that docs should only be able to press heal buttons and cast SFA at bor grid.

[MassDebater]

omg are you kidding me?

Because engies are one of two profs in AO that have reflects. I'm sure you never get a raid invite because of that. whereas my MA always gets raid invites because damn dude, you can't finish a raid without DF and MoP.

Yes, oh, and I forgot, yes, my heals is what makes or breaks raids.

Good try, but no.

You mean, those reflects that get overridden by RRFE?


Good try, but no.

[crattey]

If these professions need weapons to match the effectiveness of weapon based professions, then what are Pets, DoTs, and Nukes for, and why are they also equipping the weapons with 2251 skill requirements if 1701 is supposedly difficult for them? Weapon advantages should be for professions dependant on them.

Oh please, we don't even come close to matching the effective weapon use of other professions, and you know it. Only engis and crats have great PvM damage.
Now try adding crat pets and nukes to a soldier. Or to a MA. Or keeper. Or advy. Or shade. Do you think their damage output would remain roughly the same? Doesn't that alone say enough about how effective crat weaponry is?

MPs, docs and traders have **** damage output. Considering neither traders or MPs have much to do but deal damage, I'd say it would warrant even better weaponry, with equally reasonable skill requirements. Docs, well, they have a rather clearly defined role. Then again, advies, MAs and keepers have equally well-defined support roles, yet I don't see you lumping them in with the 'support' professions.

[Cryfreman]

Cool, lets duel a 170 Tigress MP v a 170 Enfo. Let me know how you get on.

[Radia]

So ... if traders class as a support profession, where are our lower-requirement weapons?

Methinks perhaps that the whole argument is moot. FC don't design weapons based around absolute requirements; rather they design them the correct way round, so that an appropriately equipped character with sufficient buffs can get the relevant equipment on.

Of course, there is another problem. LoX has brought new equipment, and more convenient ways of buffing (the symbs that took me 2 months to get on 2 years ago took me only 2 hours of re-perking to get back on last night , with no OSBs. Yes, I need new symbs - thats not the point). Also buffs themselves have been upgraded - what we see now as a low requirement wasn't low back then.

Just something to bear in mind ...

[Weltall]

MPs, docs and traders have **** damage output. Considering neither traders or MPs have much to do but deal damage, I'd say it would warrant even better weaponry, with equally reasonable skill requirements. Docs, well, they have a rather clearly defined role. Then again, advies, MAs and keepers have equally well-defined support roles, yet I don't see you lumping them in with the 'support' professions.

Well firstly, MPs can do pretty damn good damage if they try, maybe your MP is just useless. Secondly I'd say keepers have a good support role but advs and MAs? MAs/Advs can provide a small amount of support but in no way can it compare to a keeper/trader/MP/crat/doc


Maybe with that logic you'd wanna add in shades and NTs to support profs as well since they can provide minor support.