Please dont kill tl5

[Molotoff]

Does anyone else see the irony?

Why would that be ironic ? You can't please everyone.

[Organa]

I find it somewhat ironic that after the massive s**tstorm that followed Means' initial ideas to change the Battlestation ranges (see here), that some people here on the forums are now suggesting ranges virtually identical to what he proposed.

To recap, here's what Means posted in his Sept. 3rd FwM:


And here's Ceenah2's post (as an example):


Does anyone else see the irony?

You are completely ignoring (or ignorant of) one highly important factor, that is that HH@B has now been changed to 201+. The HH@B was the main reason why people complained about the proposed 150-200 BS, because it would have unbalanced things enormously.

Now that it has been changed people would be more than happy to have a 151-200 BS range. As it stands right now, the 151-174 BS doesn't run very often now since the 150s, who contributed heavily to the numbers are no longer there.

Org

Org

[Gatester]

(1) 10-25
26-55
56-100
101-159
160-200
201-220

Im sticking with that one. First probably won't run, unless you included 1-25. 26-55 covers the already super active lowbie range (previously, not anymore) with additional tower levels.

56-100 gets that range actually running, 56 is the beginning of a tower twink stage, 60's are totw type twinks and there are several toons up to 100. 61-100 IS NOT RUNNING, and despite a great fight with 1 soldier for 10 minutes yesterday it is a complete joke.

101-159 might not need those extra 9 levels, but it couldn't hurt or you could just shove them in the next one. The rest is common sense. Those top 4 BS's should actually run frequently.

[Scottik]

(1) 10-25
26-55
56-100
101-159
160-200
201-220

Im sticking with that one. First probably won't run, unless you included 1-25. 26-55 covers the already super active lowbie range (previously, not anymore) with additional tower levels.

56-100 gets that range actually running, 56 is the beginning of a tower twink stage, 60's are totw type twinks and there are several toons up to 100. 61-100 IS NOT RUNNING, and despite a great fight with 1 soldier for 10 minutes yesterday it is a complete joke.

101-159 might not need those extra 9 levels, but it couldn't hurt or you could just shove them in the next one. The rest is common sense. Those top 4 BS's should actually run frequently.

Hm, I doubt that would be helpful for tl3 BS. I wouldn't join BS like this with my lvl60 twink(s). Why? Because when I got top twink then I expect it to perform well, very well actually and not to end up in the wrong end of "food" chain.

[Khaldore]

You are completely ignoring (or ignorant of) one highly important factor, that is that HH@B has now been changed to 201+.

On the contrary, I've not forgotten the new HH@B level lock. To be honest, though, I still believe a 151-200 range is pointless, as a level 151 character would still be steamrolled by a level 200, HH@B or not. That's a difference of:

Five regular perks (150 vs 200)
Up to ten AI perks (AI20 vs AI30)
Up to twenty-eight more research lines (LE42 vs LE70)

... HH@B isn't gonna make a sniff of difference where the 190+ characters are concerned, unless it's against people near their own level.

All that being said, of course, I really don't care what they do, I'll play AO until it shuts down. I simply found it amusing that 1) people complained when Means' initial ranges were proposed, and 2) now that other changes are in place, they want something almost identical to what he proposed.

[Oliveerz]

10-29
30-60
61-100
101-150
151-200
201-220

Pls

Word!

[McKnuckleSamwich]

Hm, I doubt that would be helpful for tl3 BS. I wouldn't join BS like this with my lvl60 twink(s). Why? Because when I got top twink then I expect it to perform well, very well actually and not to end up in the wrong end of "food" chain.

This is completely BS reasoning.

If you make a PVM twink, why on god's green earth would you think it'll be effective in PVP?

NO, this is the wrong reason.


The way it should be is this:

If you build a PVM twink, it should perform well in PVM. If you build a PVP twink, it should perform OK in PVP.

Here is the biggest consideration we MUST make, when considering BS:

THERE ARE MORE PVMER's THAN PVPER's!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So, we have to organize BS around the PVM'ers so that the PVPERs have soemthing to do.

Here is what to do:

1. Figure out the most populous PVM twinking levels
2. Organize BS around them.

OK, now, with S7 incoming, we have a level 200 PVM twink. Great, we also have 150 (S10), 60 (TotW), and possibly 100 (foremans), and also possibly 110 (COH), and 24 (subway)

Arguably, Foremans and COH are pretty weak populations, but, if this reasoning holds up, maybe some changes will be made to these dungeons to encourage more PVM twinks to be built.

Ok, so: 24, 60, 100, 110, 150, 200, 220

Not a bad set of numbers to start with. So, lets talk about some underlying assumptions regarding PVM twinks: Probably, they will be better geared than a toon of comparable level, meaning, they should have slightly better survival and capabilities in PVP, but, not so much that it sets them apart as PVP twinks.

So, with that in mind, lets discuss the relevance of having a BS DOMINATED by PVM twinks, Versus a BS DOMINATED by PVP twinks.

The old TL5 system encouraged PVPers to choose a level slightly above 150 for twinking, for the IP advantage, while still being out of range of 220's and other TL7's. This encouraged a range of levels within the substructure of BS. Many people built excellent 164-171 twinks with the obvious mind set of being tower capable as well as BS capable. This is good. Also, since 150 and 174 are not THAT far apart, it made way for very good populations of toons to fight against for all the people that twinked for PVM. Tl5 BS was roughly 50-70% S10 toons, and 30-50% PVP twinks.

Of note is that the new system, with 151-174 means that TL5 has now lost at least 50% of the population. And it's now not running, EVER.

So, we can see that a BS range dominated by PVM twinks in the bottom level works perfectly fine. PVM is PVM, PVP is PVP. Put a PVM twink in with hardcore PVP twinks, and you'll get an excellent range of encounters, with many 150's teaming up to put significant pressure on the PVP twinks. Some, prof for prof, put up a better fight than other "PVP" twinks. So it worked very well.

Using this as a basis for the next set of hyposthesis, I will now discuss the MERITS of using populous ranges of toons to support Battlestation.

Since we can assume that the main PVM twinks will "power" BS, we should expect to see larger numbers of that level within BS. We should also assume that since they are Twinked for PVM, they will operate at a level slightly-to-far above an average toon of that level.

So, what happens now, with all of the S10 Twinks operating at the HIGHEST level available in the 101-150 BS?

Very simply: You've got the biggest possible variation of skill and equipment, being incredibly skewed to the top end, with absolutely 0 chance for anyone under that level having a remote chance to compete. Consider a top end 110 twink, with full evades gear, and perfectly suited for 110 PVP. Evades are maxed out at around 1200- 1300 evades, and thats with everything in, as your sole defence. Now, add to that 40 levels, gear 100 levels higher, and far more perks, and the average S10 twink is sitting on about 1300-1600 AR. So, even a properly twinked 110 toon, for PVP, doesn't stand half a chance VS a PVM twink of 40 levels higher: End result: Massive massive FAIL.

Ok. So, clearly, with PVM twinks forming the basis of the Population, and with the PVM twink being better than average for a char of that level, they MUST be relegated to the lower rungs of levels, as opposed to the top rungs, or in an absolutely worst possible situation, the top level: (current TL4-150 BS is an absolutely nightmare, and completely eliminates any possible reason to twink for BS at a level sub 150).

Ok, so, with that established, lets finally discuss what levels BS SHOULD BE.

24 must not be a top level and is populated
60 must not be a top level and is heavily populated
100-110 must not be a top level and is populated
150 must not be a top level and is heavily populated
200 must not be a top level and will be heavily populated

So, lets start at the top and work down:
220- 205 (All TL7 included, and the 220's will ensure it runs)
204-190 (includes all TL6, and, all the 200 twinks will populate this BS ensuring it runs)
189-150 (Includes all TL5, and the 150's who will dominate the population, will ensure it runs. The 189's, who choose to twink at that level will enjoy a benefit, but, not so much as a 190, with various items opening to that TL range)
149-100 (includes everyone who does twink at lower levels, but, if someone did choose to twink at a higher level, still provides them with opportunity to fight with people not outside their normal PVP range)
60-99 (TOTW twinks will populate this range, and everyone in TL3 can fight with them, but can enjoy slightly higher equipment, but not completely OP'd items like Level 101-200 Jobe implants.)
24-59 (lowest level of BS, and populated by previous BS range twinks 45, 49, 55 and obviously subway twinks)

In this way, all BS ranges will be not completely overrun by PVM twinks at the very top levels of the range, which is seen, as cited, to break BS. This will provide ample opportunity for twinks of obscure levels, to add flavour to the BS, and which may incite some interesting challenges. Bottom line: Tl5 is currently broken, Tl4-150 is currently broken, and These two need some SERIOUS overhaul.

[Lusos101]

@ the sandwichguy:

Impressive wall of text, almost fell asleep reading it. And a nice piece of BS too. Your reasoning is pretty good. It is however based on premises of your convenience. To reach the conclusions you want to reach.

Battlestations dont run on twinks, they run on cannonfooder. The previous battlestations that did run always had a big percentage of non twinked toons (S10 twinks in the making and leveling toons), almost always the percentage would be above 50% and sometimes even 100% (making for a fun battlestation if you want to know). PvP twinks are made, for the most part, to farm titles on these toons. Whatever new ranges the BSs will have the pattern will repeat itself. And dont give me the bovine excremental evacuation argument about level 160 NW toons. Those go to the BSs when there are no 174s, cos they run pretty fast when they become cannonfooder too. Although due to the bizarre leveling mechanisms of AO they still stand a good chance most of the time as you know better then me for sure.

Another point, any twinked toon will perform much better in PvP then any toon with average gear (same goes for PvM obviously). In fact, what we see with existing AO gameplay is a lot of poorly equipped toons going into BS to farm VPs and being farmed by a few well equipped toons. Most arguments defending ranges with 150s on top are of people who want to use the S10 twinks to farm titles too.

Whatever the ranges, most of the gaming population will not complain and carry on adjusting gameplay to whatever BSs that run. Because they go to the BSs to farm VP and dont give a rodents hindquarters about PvP. They in for the OFAB/nanos/etc. they need/want. The few self proclaimed PvP affictionados will continue whining and moaning about the ranges that dont suit their own tastes, IE very badly disguised selfish interests.

Personally I am convinced that no BS will ever run in the lower ranges (excepting occasional organized VP farming). Leveling toons are happy with Predator, Miy's and similar armor at those ranges. Nobody farms VPs for stuff they going to outgrow very fast. No cannonfooder for joo thar. For higher levels, it will run depending on S10 and/or the new APF. If the new playfield turns out a dud, giving axp and dailies but without valuable phats, then nobody is going to bother in making twinks and the BS will rarely if ever run. If it becomes a much better income source it may replace S10 and 150 BS will die. If it is similar to S10 then they may both run but with the dwindling population becoming more divided they will have both difficulty in running. And 220 BS ofc.

See? I kan maek wallotestes 2.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

I prefer to be optimistic, and hopefully there will be enough toons to populate a 200 BS and a 150 BS.

[Emergenzee]

I support the originally proposed BS level range changes proposed by the devs.

[Ciex]

tl;dr

(...)

Bottom line: Tl5 is currently broken, Tl4-150 is currently broken, and These two need some SERIOUS overhaul.

101-150 isnt broken by any ways. Its running 75% of the time and we have some great fun altho we could use more clans there. I dont want to see 150-174 or 150+ ever again. It was boring and lame and 170 twinks were pointless. It was 2 days ago when ive discovered (and most likely many others) i can have some fun with a 150 pvm character without being instaowned by predator wearing agents of lvl 170.

Having max level range of BS at the level where there is something to do in pvm (60, 100, 150, 200, 220) so its finally worth doing a twink is most likely the greatest change so far to BS system. Now ill roll a lvl 60 character finally and most likely many others will do such characters, especially 150s. Its a double win system; you win in pvm and in pvp. Having a good 150 just to get humiliated by 170s never worked good to make BSs more populated.

[Scottik]

Stuff

Even thou I didn't read all of the text you typed above I guess you didn't get my point.
I'll use Ciek's post as he said it perfectly:

Having max level range of BS at the level where there is something to do in pvm (60, 100, 150, 200, 220) so its finally worth doing a twink is most likely the greatest change so far to BS system. Now ill roll a lvl 60 character finally and most likely many others will do such characters, especially 150s. Its a double win system; you win in pvm and in pvp. Having a good 150 just to get humiliated by 170s never worked good to make BSs more populated.

Besides at ~lvl60 there are usually minor differences between PvM and PvP chars if any (except for a traders with ithaca but who the hell uses trader for totw farming anyway).

Also please avoid these huge walls of text. Nobody wants to read it that's the only result you will get.

[erozc]

And dont give me the bovine excremental evacuation argument about level 160 NW toons. Those go to the BSs when there are no 174s, cos they run pretty fast when they become cannonfooder too. Although due to the bizarre leveling mechanisms of AO they still stand a good chance most of the time as you know better then me for sure.

...

Personally I am convinced that no BS will ever run in the lower ranges (excepting occasional organized VP farming). Leveling toons are happy with Predator, Miy's and similar armor at those ranges. Nobody farms VPs for stuff they going to outgrow very fast. No cannonfooder for joo thar.

I don't know any 160ish who runs from level 174s, so that is total BS.

Lower BSes can run, be exciting and be fun, most profs have 1-2 pieces of OFAB that are useful even when leveling, 1k VP for the research devices, etc. not to mention the BS daily that many find enjoyable.

So, with that in mind, lets discuss the relevance of having a BS DOMINATED by PVM twinks, Versus a BS DOMINATED by PVP twinks.
...

So, even a properly twinked 110 toon, for PVP, doesn't stand half a chance VS a PVM twink of 40 levels higher: End result: Massive massive FAIL.

...

Bottom line: Tl5 is currently broken, Tl4-150 is currently broken, and These two need some SERIOUS overhaul.

I do disagree with some points. If your level 110 twink won't cut it, you got the short end of the stick. Would you rather be in a BS that doesn't run? Guess not. If your twink doesn't cut it in what's the most frequent PvP, what do you do? Change it, obviously, or relegate it to just tower duty.

It is stupid that 151-174 does not run. I would much rather face level 200 PvM twinks on my level 170 than change back to 150-174, because challenge is fun. I would just like a BS that runs. If my 170 then becomes totally suppressed and oppressed by the 200s, I will probably make another toon to enjoy 200 PvP and have something else for towers.

[Lusos101]

I have seen it often. After a round or 2 the lower level toon dissapears.

I have not yet leveled many toons, but the few I did got 100% of the VP from mothership missions before reaching level 150. I can farm enough VPs in missions for the hud thingies and a OFAB piece or 2. Aprox. 10 AI levels before level 150 can give enough VPs. Signing up for BS has never worked for me, except on one occasion and it was a VP farm not PvP. And signing up regularly while playing for several hours almost every day and at different times of the day. In RK1, the populated server.

I can count by the fingers of my hands the times I saw people trying real PvP, IE PvP twinks fighting each other to win the BS. Usually when one faction dominates the BS all twinks from the opposite faction dissapear. I see very little PvP for fun, I see a lot of title farming. And spawncamping, gloathing and other behavior that would earn a beating if it was in RL.

So yes, BS are fun, except when PvP twinks show up.

[Ciex]

snip

Human nature demands more and more. More sex, more money, more power... and more pvp score :P

It isnt our fault that pvp score system is so poor that it gives exactly same effect when you farm a lonely greenie on BS and an opponent 30 levels higher than you - 1 point. With the old legacy title system there was almost no spawn camping (ofc it did happen from time to time when people were angry or something) as those greenies were worthless for any decent pvp oriented character.

Another aspect are sided conflicts. Its one side that dominates BSs levels and the other gets owned over and over. If it was poosible to sign up for whatever side you want, many people who dont need vp would choose loosing side to have a real fight.

[erozc]

Somehow you make it seem like any "pvp twink" would leave when they are on the losing side, and not PvP for fun. I do not understand your distinction of "for fun" and "title farming". Of course you're going to kill every enemy in sight. If the opponents put up a good fight, it is even more fun.

[Gatester]

Hm, I doubt that would be helpful for tl3 BS. I wouldn't join BS like this with my lvl60 twink(s). Why? Because when I got top twink then I expect it to perform well, very well actually and not to end up in the wrong end of "food" chain.

There is an issue of what is better, allowing a common twinking spot to be the top level in a battlestation or combining it with another group to ensure the battlestation runs.

As players get higher level, they need more VP to gear their toons. However, there is a possibility that with AI armor use at 75-100 that more VP is needed by the pre-ai tech 2 playerbase. There are a lot of variables, more so than just who becomes best and who does not. There is also the draw for lower level players that can kill the higher level players, thus gaining significantly higher scores. That was the purpose of the agent in my signature and why undercutting frequented battlestation on his trader, 250 score per kill is very attractive even if I died a bit more often.

With that, I think I do agree with you that I would rather 60 remains a top of the line level, but I'm just not sure those three lowest level ranges can run consistently enough as they are. So even I have to choose something I would disagree with personally if it helped battlestation rounds to occur. Perhaps we need a 50-100 alien sector that drops viralbots as well

[Seinstheorie]

A view things i observed about new BS-ranges and system:

1st: 4 on each side to start is good for not populated ranges. But on the other hand it encourages spawncamping and 4-capping in populated ranges as people leaving after that does not stop BS but make the side-playernumber-balance even worse.

2nd: 101-150 range is interesting, but highly boring. I understand that some people with 150 characters are happy to farm gray people, but a lot of other 150-players miss the challenge in that range. The problem for many lower pvp-twinks in that range is simpel: IP are tight, they were built for NW, so they calculated OBS in to keep armor 100% and CI to cast there nanos (some professions not ofc)

3rd: Just in terms of level-balance i would support:
220- 205
204-190
189-150
149-100
60-99
24-59
as it is basically what i thaught too, when reading first about BS-changes.

A 150 character can be a threat to a 189 character
101 vs 150 is pretty impossible
(based on same effort of twinking the same profession)

[Lusos101]

Eroz you dont understand my definition of "for fun" and immediatly after you say that it is more fun if the opponent gives a good fight. Lets use your definition. Fighting for fun is when you try to fight opponents that are challenging. If you go into a battlestation and look for opponents that you know have no chance of winning against you or even are in the battlestation sitting in a corner then it is not a fight "for fun" it is "title farming".

I have seen some people who go into the BS "for fun", they fight against those who can fight back and ignore everybody else. But this is not the norm. Most of the time people bring their twinks to farm easy kills. If the kills are not easy they quickly give up. I can only conclude that there are very few who are interested in PvP "for fun". Most people make twinks, not with the intention of making challenging toons, that they can try in PvP. They just want easy titles.

[erozc]

I have seen some people who go into the BS "for fun", they fight against those who can fight back and ignore everybody else. But this is not the norm. Most of the time people bring their twinks to farm easy kills. If the kills are not easy they quickly give up. I can only conclude that there are very few who are interested in PvP "for fun". Most people make twinks, not with the intention of making challenging toons, that they can try in PvP. They just want easy titles.

Well, I think it's time to use the RK1 card here or maybe not.

Either way, e.g. on my engie, I do enjoy a good fight on the BS, but that doesn't mean I won't hunt and kill every greenie out there since they will try to cap points and make my life harder as well. There's no ignoring people in a BS environment. What I will do is run away from the 170 enfs that I have no chance of beating unless my full toolset is up, but leave BS? Most often it's been a problem of lack of omnis, then lack of challenging omnis (which makes them quit) in the old TL5 BS.