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Thread: Friday with Means - October 15th, 2010 - Aliens OMG

  1. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrangeline View Post
    I just saw sector 9 today. What a depressing movie
    Did you get any good loot?
    GO WITH MANY BLELBINEMS

    GUESS WHO (IT STARTS WITH "SWORD" AND ENDS WITH "BREAKER")

    LOL


  2. #122
    Best possible option:

    All players stop playing and paying for the accounts.

    Then all of the 5 employees can work 100% on new gfx engine.
    The 4 who don't know how the new gfx engine can be build can bring the 1 employee who knows how to build it coffee

    Solved.

    AO players must accept that Funcom is putting 99,9% of the employees to AoC and Secret World, the 2 main money making games of Funcom.
    AO is still alive by nostalgie players nothing more nothing less.

    Don't act that Anarchy online is important to Funcom, if the incomming money is to low for the game, they will close the game.

    DON'T COMPLAIN, 5 EMPLOYEES FOR A MMORG IS A BIG LAUCH!!!
    Even 30 employees is nothing for such a game.

  3. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by nitr0 View Post
    coming soon 2008 -hint-
    (or was it 2007? 2006? dunno... but anyways, claiming fc is not slow on this is a statement even 99% of the fanbois wouldnt agree ^^)
    That their being slow is obvious. If that slowness is justified is the question.

    Could they work faster? Yes.. no? Do we know?

    No. So how can we judge if their slowness is them being lazy or having bad priorities and not just because it's a massive task and they don't have the staff to do it faster?
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    Means: "We have done way dumber things than this..."

  4. #124
    I went out to have dinner yesterday. They took one and a half hour to serve me and the food was cold when it got to the table. Turns out the person that usually works in the kitchen was moved to a new restaurant the owner is opening.

    Could they work faster? Yes.. no? Do we know?

    No. So how can we judge if their slowness is them being lazy or having bad priorities and not just because it's a massive task and they don't have the staff to do it faster?
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  5. #125
    Bad analogy (though, in typical troll fashion, for someone supposedly not into forum PvP you'll never admit that), we have a benchmark for how fast food should be served (ie hot food still hot). We however have no such benchmark for game engines.
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    Rimor
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    Means: "We have done way dumber things than this..."

  6. #126
    It's not a new game engine.. it won't change the game much. It will run better (faster) and have more visual effects. That's about it.

    'Benchmarks' or lack of personnel or mistakes are irrelevant. It took them too much time and the hype is long gone. Players are more and more disappointed as time goes by (oh, there is your 'benchmark') and they express it by whining on forums. It won't help for sure but there's nothing else they (players) can do.

    Analogy with the restaurant wasn't that bad actually (well if you could compare food><restaurant with a new graphic engine><game). If I wait 1h30 and still don't get my order, I leave. In a restaurant, they will spot it. In a MMO, who cares?

    Unless we are talking about their favorite restaurant MMO. Then, they'll complain to the owner/whatever. Oh ... wait ..., that's exactly what they are doing in the Friday w/ Means thread!
    Last edited by NoGoal; Oct 18th, 2010 at 14:45:17.
    blah

  7. #127
    From my point of view, engine is no needed to me - I like those old graphics.
    But from view of a MMORG player, highly allured by RK, I need new engine, which will get new playerbase, so - besieds of Hecks - I belive I will be able to do RK stuff, meet new ppl, help some if needed, and tbh, I can't wait till it will be live!
    I like PvP
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  8. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by NoGoal View Post
    Players are more and more disappointed as time goes by (oh, there is your 'benchmark')
    But because said amount of time varies drastically (some people left years ago, others are leaving now, yet more are still complaining but not leaving yet) it is hardly a benchmark.

    Are we to say that, because people left a year ago, that the engine should have taken less time then that? Or because people are leaving two years after its announced should it have taken less time then that (which leaves it open to be longer then a year however)?

    The analogy with the restaurant was bad because there is an undeniable length of time that it takes food to cook. If you order a hamburger it only takes a few minutes to cook; add time considering that they have to make other patrons orders too and you have your "average time it takes to get a meal". Because we have this time, set in fact of how long it takes to cook a hamburger, we can say that anything considerably over that time is to long.

    With a game engine however, where is that fact that says "engines take this long to make"?

    To long of a wait for you, or your buddies, or the guy over there.. that's not benchmarks, that's a persons desired timeframe. If the likes of an engine takes 3 years to make, then so be it; those who don't want to wait are just impatient/anxious.

    In the end, nobody here knows how long the engine is supposed to take.

    We just know how long we want it to take.
    Last edited by Ayria; Oct 18th, 2010 at 15:52:26.
    Enter the Information Age
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    Rimor
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    Leara - 220|25|62 (Omni Doctor)
    Ponygirl - 220|25|56 (Omni Bureaucrat)
    Means: "We have done way dumber things than this..."

  9. #129
    Quote Originally Posted by Ayria View Post
    BAre we to say that, because people left a year ago, that the engine should have taken less time then that?
    If many left because of it, then yes. But they didn't as AO is more than that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ayria View Post
    The analogy with the restaurant was bad because there is an undeniable length of time that it takes food to cook.
    That's where you are wrong. If I go to the MacDonald, I consider 15 mins wait to be too long. If I go to a (real) restaurant, I won't mind waiting twice or more that time. But both took the same time to cook. So cooking time is irrelevant.

    The wrong part in that analogy is that you don't pay Funcom to release a new engine, you pay them to play Anarchy Online.

    And, again, it is not a new game engine. If it was the case, a lot more players would whine about it.
    blah

  10. #130
    I think the obvious facts that many whiners overlook about the engine, is that;

    a) the new dreamworld engine vs. the old dreamworld engine means that every single new feature added to AoC and TSW can also be easily modified and added to AO. currently, the old DW engine that AO is using is not compatible with AoC/TSW content by a long shot.

    b) after implementation of new DW engine, you can bet your granny's liquer stash that support for AO will improve because it will really be one team stretched across three different games that can be intermixed for various projects. obviously, AO is running on a boatload of nostalgia atm, but if new engine comes in and alot of players come back, it is very possible that AO can grow again in the same womb, alongside funcoms 2 other babies, all sharing the same life support system so-to-speak.


    the above is obviously what funcoms goals are. for a mmo company to do this saves A LOT of money, makes for faster game development with less people and improves bug/sploit/glitch support by a large factor. it is not however putting all eggs in one basket, but who knows, maybe one day your subscription will cover all three games under the DW engine? (its doubtful, but who knows what can happen.)
    Last edited by SoulTarder; Oct 18th, 2010 at 16:57:22.
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  11. #131
    Quote Originally Posted by NoGoal View Post
    That's where you are wrong.
    Probably should have quoted a different part, I am not wrong on the fact that hamburger has a set time to cook. You even agree with me on that point yet call me wrong. So ya, quote a better part next time

    Quote Originally Posted by NoGoal View Post
    If I go to the MacDonald, I consider 15 mins wait to be too long. If I go to a (real) restaurant, I won't mind waiting twice or more that time. But both took the same time to cook. So cooking time is irrelevant.
    Why do you not mind waiting longer then? If you could get your food at a real restaurant in under 15 minutes, because hey; McDonalds is expected to get it done that fast, cooking time isn't an issue, then why are you willing to wait longer without complaint?

    Why isn't McDonalds afforded the same patience? Based on some pathetic ideal that because they call themselves fast food and others don't they should deliver the food sooner despite that, supposedly, other restaurants could do the same but don't?

    Again: it comes down to personal expectations. If a burger takes 5 minutes to cook and you go to McDonalds you expect your food in 6 minutes. But a burger from a 'real' restaurant still taking 5 minutes to cook you'd wait 30 minutes (if not more) for without complaint because.... that's right, your expectations.

    I'll leave it to you to figure out how that ties into my earlier point that you seemed to ignore in lieu of following this restaurant analogy more.
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    Leara - 220|25|62 (Omni Doctor)
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    Means: "We have done way dumber things than this..."

  12. #132
    Quote Originally Posted by SoulTarder View Post
    I think the obvious facts that many whiners overlook about the engine, is that;

    a) the new dreamworld engine vs. the old dreamworld engine means that every single new feature added to AoC and TSW can also be easily modified and added to AO. currently, the old DW engine that AO is using is not compatible with AoC/TSW content by a long shot.

    b) after implementation of new DW engine, you can bet your granny's liquer stash that support for AO will improve because it will really be one team stretched across three different games that can be intermixed for various projects. obviously, AO is running on a boatload of nostalgia atm, but if new engine comes in and alot of players come back, it is very possible that AO can grow again in the same womb, alongside funcoms 2 other babies, all sharing the same life support system so-to-speak.


    the above is obviously what funcoms goals are. for a mmo company to do this saves A LOT of money, makes for faster game development with less people and improves bug/sploit/glitch support by a large factor. it is not however putting all eggs in one basket, but who knows, maybe one day your subscription will cover all three games under the DW engine? (its doubtful, but who knows what can happen.)
    Do note this will just be graphical features.
    No gameplay features (or others along those lines) will be easier to carry over to AO than it was before the new graphics engine.
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  13. #133
    Quote Originally Posted by Ayria View Post
    Probably should have quoted a different part, I am not wrong on the fact that hamburger has a set time to cook. You even agree with me on that point yet call me wrong. So ya, quote a better part next time
    Please read before posting. That was not the point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ayria View Post
    Again: it comes down to personal expectations. If a burger takes 5 minutes to cook and you go to McDonalds you expect your food in 6 minutes. But a burger from a 'real' restaurant still taking 5 minutes to cook you'd wait 30 minutes (if not more) for without complaint because.... that's right, your expectations.
    Hum, no. You don't go there for the same reasons.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ayria View Post
    I'll leave it to you to figure out how that ties into my earlier point that you seemed to ignore in lieu of following this restaurant analogy more.
    With your point being "We don't know", yeah that helps. All I'm saying is that we waited for a long time already and I can understand how people can whine about it. Seems like you can't.
    blah

  14. #134
    Quote Originally Posted by NoGoal View Post
    Please read before posting. That was not the point.
    I know it wasn't, hence why I was pointing it out. Not my fault you construed that as hostility.

    Quote Originally Posted by NoGoal View Post
    With your point being "We don't know", yeah that helps. All I'm saying is that we waited for a long time already and I can understand how people can whine about it. Seems like you can't.
    I understand why they're whining, I just think their reason is dumb.

    What happens if the standard (taking into account staff size) for an engine is 3 years, or 4? What if all this whining is premature and simply our impatience rather then any kind of justified complaints over an overdue project?

    Crying cause you're impatient is quite a bit more annoying and stupid then crying cause something is overdue.
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  15. #135
    Quote Originally Posted by Ayria View Post
    What happens if the standard (taking into account staff size) for an engine is 3 years, or 4? What if all this whining is premature and simply our impatience rather then any kind of justified complaints over an overdue project?
    CCP has ~600 employees and is working on 3 games, 2 of which are still in development.

    Funcom has ~320 employees and is working on 3 games, 1 of which is still in development. (With supposedly the Xbox version of AoC still in development too, but lol @ that)


    EVE has a cult following (which, to be fair, so does AO, but even with AO's learning curve, AO is easier to get into). Chances are (admittedly, I don't know for certain) that EVE's team is only slightly larger than AO's team. AO has what, 7 people? EVE probably has maybe 30ish? EVE was released in 03, and in 07 they released an updated graphics engine. That's 4 years, but that's only from release until their new engine. How long were they likely working on that engine? I have no concrete facts about it, so if you want to look it up, feel free, but I'm betting it wasn't 4 years.

  16. #136
    Well beyond that they have a larger staff for EVE, how many of that staff were working on the new engine? You could have 500 people on payroll, if only 5 are working on the engine it's still gona take a while.
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    Rimor
    Tesgri - 220|17|58 (Omni Agent)
    Leara - 220|25|62 (Omni Doctor)
    Ponygirl - 220|25|56 (Omni Bureaucrat)
    Means: "We have done way dumber things than this..."

  17. #137
    See, that's what I mean. I don't know how many were working on the engine. I'm willing to bet it wasn't that many people. More people does get it done faster, but it also increases the complexity of the code, which is generally a bad thing. You get everyone putting in their little touches, so it's a huge mess. Kind of like AO's code is now.

    Besides that, I'm fairly certain the staff for EVE and the staff for AO were roughly the same back then. CCP was smaller, and AO was more popular.


    My point is, we do have benchmarks for how long a graphics engine should take.

  18. #138
    There's about a dozen people working on AO in total.
    From what I could tell at the event, there were 3 coders.
    We know Macrosun isn't working on the engine and there's a new nickname on IRC lately.
    So that would be between 1 and 3 programmers from the AO team on the new engine.

    Ofcourse we don't know how many people from the Conan team are involved and the exact relation between all this.
    But the effort done to make the AoC engine work with AO is done by 3 people at most.

    And no, there is no valid benchmark possible for this.
    We're talking about implementing a graphics engine from a different game into a 10 year old codebase with complexity we don't know about.
    There is no possible way any of us could make an accurate prediction at how long this should take.
    It's all unique variables that makes this an undertaking we can't reliably compare to anything else.

    Can't really compare it to EVE either way. EVE is CCP's flagship. AO is just an old game FC maintains with limited resources.
    Last edited by Vhaxx; Oct 18th, 2010 at 20:10:48.
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  19. #139
    I think comparing EVE to AO in terms of game development is a bit ridiculous. They aren't the same game and they don't use the same tools, business structure, assts, etc... There is no comparision there. Each game has different requirements and therefore, needs for different kinds of 'computer' people. I'm betting that EVE has much more complex database management than AO does, for instance.

    The only 'valid' benchmark for a graphics upgrade for AO would be if UO/Everquest or some other equally ancient MMO would attempt it. There aren't many games out there even as old as AO. Why do people think it's sensible to compare what AO devs can do to some more current games? That's just ignorant.
    Last edited by Obtena; Oct 18th, 2010 at 21:52:05.
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  20. #140
    Well, it would be nice of them to finish at least engie doc soon(ish), so we can all troll it a little and let them work on graphics engine in peace.
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