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Thread: New Soldier Nano Changes!

  1. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by Questra View Post
    Xenotic, if/when DoF/Limber remain the same and people are still popping 1k AAD perks and noone is able to perk anyone else, are you going to retract everything you've said here, or will you just be sitting back and smiling while you eat soldiers on BS?

    45% reflect isn't much of a secondary defense when many profs can 1) Cap you through that
    Jesus I wish my enf could absorb 45% of a soldier's damage with my best defense. Instead 1 special negates it because of stupid game mechanics and the next one tears directly into hp. Oh, and for the next 29 seconds, in which time 2 more FAs and 3 more bursts are incoming, I'm stuck without any kind of absorbs at all. Even if I decide to go the other route and rely on absorb casting (once every 10 freakin seconds after rebalance) and absorb items (one trick ponies in a fight that are still affected by stupid game mechanics) I'm still not reducing 45% of a soldier's damage. In the meantime, 45% of the 50% reduced damage I inflict simply doesn't exist. On top of that, getting smacked with that stupid heal efficiency debuff affects perk heals as well so I'll be healing for less. Be happy your defense is constant now FFS, no more all on or all off like has been rightly complained about for years.

    Granted, it's generally accepted that a soldier is a tough fight for an enforcer, especially non-1hb/1he ones, it's fair to point out that it's really ok for other people to be able to hurt -you- now that AS takes 3 seconds to execute, BR is nerfed, GTH ... should be nerfed more, and nukes shouldn't be piercing reflects since LE nukes are being removed. Your nemeses are gone so it's perfectly acceptable to take normal damage.

    Since you're getting that hp boost it'll be nice to see more people able to actually cause significant damage with weapons during AMS. Maybe shades actually will be instagibbing you through AMS V. I'd say that's pretty balanced.
    Last edited by Kopecz; Nov 14th, 2010 at 07:16:08.
    Quote Originally Posted by Esssch View Post
    I think you're wrong. I think AO is the most balanced MOBA out there.

  2. #122
    Quote Originally Posted by Kopecz View Post
    Jesus I wish my enf could absorb 45% of a soldier's damage with my best defense.
    Actually if you twink your def rating as many pvp enfs do today you will negate more than that. With a proper built enf det setup I will capp less than 25% of my fa's and miss alot of regulars and bursts as well. I'm not just saying this. It's how it is. And I have pretty good AR. 3700+.

    Combine this with absorbs, perk heals, stuns, brawlstuns, the fear nano, blind ring etc and it's not at al impossible to make a strong showing vs a soldier.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kopecz View Post
    Instead 1 special negates it because of stupid game mechanics and the next one tears directly into hp. Oh, and for the next 29 seconds, in which time 2 more FAs and 3 more bursts are incoming, I'm stuck without any kind of absorbs at all. Even if I decide to go the other route and rely on absorb casting (once every 10 freakin seconds after rebalance) and absorb items (one trick ponies in a fight that are still affected by stupid game mechanics) I'm still not reducing 45% of a soldier's damage. In the meantime, 45% of the 50% reduced damage I inflict simply doesn't exist. On top of that, getting smacked with that stupid heal efficiency debuff affects perk heals as well so I'll be healing for less. Be happy your defense is constant now FFS, no more all on or all off like has been rightly complained about for years.
    Dude, soldiers gained 2% reflect in ams/tms downtime. Unless you count reflect bracers or the item from scheol quest. Then we lost a fair bit.

  3. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by NJBreed View Post
    My gut feeling is that end result of "rebalance" will be a simple shuffling of the current profession stacking order. These changes will lower the soldiers position.
    Exactly. From the middle of the pack to the absolute bottom.

    Quote Originally Posted by NJBreed View Post
    Only sensible thing to do is vie for your profs place/advancement in said order. Just as every non-sold supporting the nerfs is doing here... call me a pessimist, maybe I've played too long, I dunno, my 2 cred.
    You are not a pessimist. You just know FC. FC breaks, then FC corrects, 3 years later. Which is why now is the time to voice your opinion if you don't want to be stuck with something useless for years.

    They say it's an iterative process. Yeah I'm sure we all realize that. The problem is that we know for a fact that the time between iterations can be years, literally and there is absolutely NO guarantee that FC will listen to the community.

    Take RI as a great example. I haven't met a single soldier that didn't think RI should be nerfed majorly or removed completely along with LE nukes and such. Instead FC does the opposite and gives it a boost iiuc.

    Seriously.. That was one nerf that we all agreed on and would have accepted. But instead they nerf the only def we have so much that we literally won't be able to kill anything except possibly agents, by using RI.

    ADV Okay. I guess it won't matter much here since most of the time we didn't stand a chance anyway.

    AGENT Can win here if RI lands fo sho.

    CRAT Sorry no chance here. Even with a good rec3 setup and the old AMS a good crat would outlast a soldier even toe to toe.

    DOC Sorry. No chance here either. But I guess it makes the overall sad experince shorter. Maybe that is a good thing?

    ENF It's hard to tell how thins will pan out here. But I know that a good def enf and a soldier in a duel situation the soldier only gets 10 seconds to spare or so after the enf dies before ams goes down. Which means we will have a vey tough time here.

    ENG Well this is one case that actually gets better if you consider an smg setup. The +5 blockers will get riped faster. I'm pertty sure the engi will still have a big advantage. But not quite a big.

    FIX Will continue to just laugh in our faces as they have for years now.

    KEEP These will be able to outlast us and drop us once ams is down. They are melee though so with a bit of luck and bad sync we might be able to kill one if we get a second ams.

    MA No chance to outlast now. Was hard even before.

    MP Their blockers are going away so this is one of the classes that we may have a chance to beat. ofcourse between stuns and messes it will take a while to get their hp down.

    NT Hard to tell what kind of dd they will be able to put out. I'm guessing it wont be bad and they can easily outlast us. They will ofcourse have to use their toolset more now that they can't just bypass our def. But they will win.

    SHADE We're not killing a shade in 40 secons. But after that they will drop us inside 5. No doubt about that.

    TRADER Well.. Sol vs trader was actually semi ok after br was nerfed. Still with the advantage to the trader but not impossible for the soldier. With 40s ams it's just lol.


    This is at tl7. At lower levels reflects are just pathetic. I play a tl5 soldier too and with 65% reflects he will die to ANY class apart from docs before tms is down. Also little to no boosts at these level. Just nerfs. No hotswap alpha. No nothing.


    Now.. I hear ppl say that other classes will get nerfed too! Yes we've seen a few nerfs. The significant ones being the LE nukes and enf run speed.

    I'm just thinking that for a soldier to be able to kill anything after these nerfs every single other class will also need to be nerfed to the moon and back. Is that really what you guys want?

  4. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by Noobius76 View Post
    Actually if you twink your def rating as many pvp enfs do today you will negate more than that. With a proper built enf det setup I will capp less than 25% of my fa's and miss alot of regulars and bursts as well. I'm not just saying this. It's how it is. And I have pretty good AR. 3700+.

    Combine this with absorbs, perk heals, stuns, brawlstuns, the fear nano, blind ring etc and it's not at al impossible to make a strong showing vs a soldier.
    Can't say I've ever fought an enfo in tl7 pvp that I actually missed... definitely not one I missed 45% of the time at base... and Im talking about my low AR high Defense setup character here...

  5. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by Noobius76 View Post
    MP Their blockers are going away so this is one of the classes that we may have a chance to beat. ofcourse between stuns and messes it will take a while to get their hp down.
    What stuns, what meses (calm/mez? We don't have such at PvP)? I believe your major problem here will actually be... Wait for it...

    NSD.
    Renowned jester of the double AS Tigress

    MP in sneak eNSDed me and did about 20k damage in 10-12 seconds

  6. #126
    What they need is to remove buff other reflect. rrfe, engineer reflect. or reduce buff other reflect. I find it 30% from rrfe is too much for others. RK reflect should have self version and team version. or just drop RK one and use only the SL ones.

    As a soldier I am only 15% extra reflect more than others, that is if I am TL7.
    Ceenah 220/30/66 PvM NT @ Newcomers Alliance
    Eeenah 199/0 Froob NT @ Newcomers Alliance

  7. #127
    That "only 15% more reflect" is however 50% more efficiency when compared to RRFE.
    Would be more interesting to see how capped hits are going to be managed in the future.
    As everything may be subject to change we can't be sure that this particulary mechanic will stay as well.

    Thinking about the Last Resort line and its reflect-removal during the Payback effect:
    Could the damage we will have to suffer get scaled depending on the current amount of reflect?
    [Scaled%Hit] = [%Hit]/[Reflectreduction]
    Example: 30/0.7 = 42,857
    To get 30% reduction with 30% reflects running (0.7) the scaled hit would have to be 42,857.
    This would take someone to torture a calculator until he gets enough values. Fewer values for more peace of mind but less smooth scaling.
    Combining the two hits into one may compensate f.e starting the payback effect on calculated TMS levels and TMS dropping before the second hit?
    In this manner we will loose the appropriate percentage of HP without trashing our reflects.
    Last edited by Ikarus; Nov 14th, 2010 at 16:43:05.
    A bullet may have your name on it, but a grenade is addressed To Whom it May Concern.

  8. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by Xenotric View Post
    Can't say I've ever fought an enfo in tl7 pvp that I actually missed... definitely not one I missed 45% of the time at base... and Im talking about my low AR high Defense setup character here...
    Fight Kinkstah.
    Gunfytr 220/30/70 Soldier Lawdog80 220/30/70 Advy
    Quote Originally Posted by Kintaii View Post
    Because we said so.
    Quote Originally Posted by Anarrina View Post
    I am unamused. I strongly suggest you don't unamuse me further
    Quote Originally Posted by Means View Post
    This nano blocks CH. This is intended.

  9. #129
    Quote Originally Posted by Gunfytr View Post
    Fight Kinkstah.
    he sucks compared to any trox def enf lol but all troxes just wanna MR gank with 1hb and 1he alphas so def enfs are rare


    the only illusion that *def enf* exist is called having towers and 12 man.

  10. #130
    Quote Originally Posted by Noobius76 View Post
    Actually if you twink your def rating as many pvp enfs do today you will negate more than that. With a proper built enf det setup I will capp less than 25% of my fa's and miss alot of regulars and bursts as well. I'm not just saying this. It's how it is. And I have pretty good AR. 3700+.

    Combine this with absorbs, perk heals, stuns, brawlstuns, the fear nano, blind ring etc and it's not at al impossible to make a strong showing vs a soldier.
    3700+ AR against 2650 dodge ranged+AAD. This is probably the last bit of motivation I needed to post a set of actual enforcer setups to show you guys how ignorant your claims are. Atrox enforcers need 13 perk points just to gain a temporary dodge rating level of 3200ish, and that is still low enough for you to actually use your dodge debuffs.

    Enforcers survive soldiers through high max health and HD setups that squeeze out every ounce of healing and absorbs they can, not because of a defense level nearly 1000 points less than their attack rating.

    Quote Originally Posted by Noobius76 View Post
    Dude, soldiers gained 2% reflect in ams/tms downtime. Unless you count reflect bracers or the item from scheol quest. Then we lost a fair bit.
    Correct me if I am wrong but, was there not a 5-10 second gap where soldiers had 0% reflects, which was the time enforcers actually alphad soldiers in duels? With that eliminated are you actually going to claim that a momentary 0% reflect was far better than the loss of 2% reflects?

    The duration seems really rough for current pvp standards, I will give you that as it would scare me too...if I didn't think about it applying after a large series of adjustments in the future.

  11. #131
    Quote Originally Posted by Gatester View Post
    3700+ AR against 2650 dodge ranged+AAD. This is probably the last bit of motivation I needed to post a set of actual enforcer setups to show you guys how ignorant your claims are. Atrox enforcers need 13 perk points just to gain a temporary dodge rating level of 3200ish, and that is still low enough for you to actually use your dodge debuffs.

    Enforcers survive soldiers through high max health and HD setups that squeeze out every ounce of healing and absorbs they can, not because of a defense level nearly 1000 points less than their attack rating.



    Correct me if I am wrong but, was there not a 5-10 second gap where soldiers had 0% reflects, which was the time enforcers actually alphad soldiers in duels? With that eliminated are you actually going to claim that a momentary 0% reflect was far better than the loss of 2% reflects?

    The duration seems really rough for current pvp standards, I will give you that as it would scare me too...if I didn't think about it applying after a large series of adjustments in the future.
    In order of points..

    It would seem that most soldiers in the current game don't believe in using debuffs. I however see a problem with this, as yes - without the debuffs enforcers will reliably evade our full autos and be unperkable to PU perks. With debuffs, the tune changes a little. In a duel scenario, where enforcers have all the tools available to them in addition to the extra 29K hp, I have yet to find one enforcer I can't beat. Trox or otherwise.

    But enforcers do have a nice defense rating in general if not debuffed. That cannot be debated.

    As for the reflect hole.. sometimes it's non-existant, sometimes it is there for a good 10 seconds. It's actually random and impossible to time, because pre-nullity refreshes every 10 seconds. It's just luck of the draw based on when you AMS. If you ams perfectly 1 second before it refreshes, then right when AMS ends pre-nullity will be up. In my personal experience, the reflect hole is usually smaller in time than it is large. But either way, 43% is a joke and so is 45% in terms of viable "static" defense.
    Leave "Marinegent" AScar - 220/23/65 Atrox Agent
    Wakeup "Marinesold" Screaming - 220/30/70 Nanomage Soldier
    "Moonmarin" - 220/30/80 Solitus Martial Artist
    "Marinekeep" - 215/18/4x Atrox Keeper
    Quote Originally Posted by CuisinartBlade View Post
    to be fair, 2.8k ar is enough to perk anyone except fixers, mas, advs, shades, nt's that blinded you, shield mps, bow mps that landed dazzle, def docs, crats, or marinesold

    so all in all it's a fairly viable setup

  12. #132
    Quote Originally Posted by Marinegent View Post
    But either way, 43% is a joke and so is 45% in terms of viable "static" defense.
    Why?

    Unless there's a scenario where you are tanking a blob that is raining down capping specials on you, but then again, no one is supposed to survive that without external support.
    Renowned jester of the double AS Tigress

    MP in sneak eNSDed me and did about 20k damage in 10-12 seconds

  13. #133
    Hopeing specials and way reflect/coon order is calced will be changed so it makes having 45% active, like it was pre LE were it was effective as a non ams dmg mitigation
    Posted by Seventh: Has something to do with the fact that RL speaking im 172 sm high and weight 96 kg, all of which come in muscle form (and guessing your reaction about forum pvp, yes i can log into webcam )

    Said the pixels lol..

  14. #134
    With piercing nukes gone and with new specials (mainly AS) being reworked, it will be effective even with the current coon/reflect calcing order.
    Renowned jester of the double AS Tigress

    MP in sneak eNSDed me and did about 20k damage in 10-12 seconds

  15. #135
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaveup View Post
    Seems more like the soldier community providing feedback. I would agree tho, take away the max hp buffs please, I already get hit for HUGE caps with 20-22k hp... so now my cap will be higher and I'll have less reflect... but I'll be able to sit down a lil better.

    PS I was already able to get just about 30k hp on a soli for "tanking" situations.
    Good idea, wrong correction imo. Remove the capping specials.

    Specials should have an easy to create formula and have crits.

    AS should be a 150% normal hit special, FA 100%-200%, burst 50% fling 50% with crits.

    To hell with these 10k-22k hits. They are a joke and break pvp entirely.
    "Can I have some shoes?"

  16. #136
    Quote Originally Posted by Marinegent View Post
    It would seem that most soldiers in the current game don't believe in using debuffs.
    Or that the debuffs take 10 seconds to land?

    Quote Originally Posted by Marinegent View Post
    I have yet to find one enforcer I can't beat. Trox or otherwise.
    Same, though fights with the best enfos usually last until my AMS is down. Let's see what chance a soldier has vs an enfo when AMS lasts half the time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marinegent View Post
    As for the reflect hole..
    Agreed. I think it's flawed that Gate and a couple other people are pointing at that quirky bug and acting as if it was intended. It was just the best mechanic the previous devs could come up with when SL auras were introduced.

    Besides, balance in PvP isn't about fixing one bug, patching one hole, just to open up two more.

    Quote Originally Posted by Esqi View Post
    Hopeing specials and way reflect/coon order is calced will be changed so it makes having 45% active, like it was pre LE were it was effective as a non ams dmg mitigation
    This would help us, but only if FA becomes much more reliable, or a soldier's damage output is going to be crippled. We'd need easier checks on the first 3 bullets.

    And if the coon order is redone back to pre LE, I think advies should not be able to max the line. I can't think of any semblence of balance where an advy could absorb 3 or 4 capped hits into coon as well as having BoL/BR/Lick Wounds and Limber/DoF. You already need a team of people to take down the best advies.

    Enfos and probably keepers and engies will need it, but an advy with any more than 3 or 4k absorbs in such a rebalance would be seriously bad.

  17. #137
    Quote Originally Posted by Noobius76 View Post
    (...)
    DOC Sorry. No chance here either. But I guess it makes the overall sad experince shorter. Maybe that is a good thing?

    (...)

    NT Hard to tell what kind of dd they will be able to put out. I'm guessing it wont be bad and they can easily outlast us. They will ofcourse have to use their toolset more now that they can't just bypass our def. But they will win.
    Nothing personnal or agressive, but I think you're overflipping out here.

    Firstly "from the middle of the pack to the absolute bottom" can't be serious. Soldiers are as for now one of the most represented and rolled profession out there. No shortage of soldiers ever. This is not the kind of process you witness for merely average performing professions.

    I singled out Doc from your post because it strikes me as weird that sols are getting basically a Doc nemesis nano (Obliterate Caduceus, 50% NR check vs 50%MC+50%MM, which will debuff the doc's healing efficiency by 70 to 100%) opening yourself a 10s window to pump damage on them, but that doesn't seem to fuss you.
    I also singled out NTs, because you managed to finish by "They will win" without having the singlest idea of what will be NT's toolset and abilities. There is something irrational in foreseeing NT's victory over Sols when all we can guess is that NT will prolly still be a DD focused profession. A bit too thin for chewing imo...
    Tribute to Aratink : Racatti and Artyomis will be pale shadows of you as long as they don't have the infamous Clanslator in their sig.
    Noim, Neutral TL7 NT
    Sethis, Neutral TL7 Keeper
    Anthraxal, Omni TL5 Enfotrox

  18. #138
    DW Q. If they are to be consistent in their nerfing efforts limber/dof/coon/heals/perk heals will be nerfed by 33% in strength and by 50-65%% in duration. Which means that dof for example will have a 20s duration. And since limber will also have 20s there will be a 20s hole, or more!

    Any other aad buffs or defences should recieve a similar treatment until they are as "effective" as ams. Many classes already have heals in addition to those defences so they get nothing to compensate. The ones who don't will get a deathtrap hot/dot.
    Last edited by Noobius76; Nov 15th, 2010 at 13:12:01.

  19. #139
    Quote Originally Posted by Questra View Post
    Or that the debuffs take 10 seconds to land?
    what about perk changes?

    Laser Paint Target  Player level: 30+  (2)
    Dodge ranged -400
     15 seconds pvp / 30 seconds pvm
    Attack:
    1 second
    Recharge:
    Hit: 30s
    Miss: 15s

    I belive its 4 seconds today for the old -400 dodge debuff Triangulate Target
    Last edited by haavarst; Nov 15th, 2010 at 12:37:50.
    Andvord, 220 Adv (retired)
    Knekt, 220/30/70 Keep (retired)
    Haavarst, 220/23 Crat
    Delifix 217 Fix
    Delivio 215 Shade
    Dilek 174 Doc
    Delisol 165 Sol
    Clown 126 Trader TL4 twink project
    Hannibal 22 Enf

  20. #140
    Quote Originally Posted by Shrubberyman View Post
    Nothing personnal or agressive, but I think you're overflipping out here.

    Firstly "from the middle of the pack to the absolute bottom" can't be serious. Soldiers are as for now one of the most represented and rolled profession out there. No shortage of soldiers ever. This is not the kind of process you witness for merely average performing professions.
    Well, go ahead and tell me which class a soldier can kill inside 40 seconds today in a real 1 vs 1 situation. AMS is already the most easily circumvented defence. Root and run if you need to. OR if you happen to be a class with roots just cast and recast those and use los until it's down and then alpha the helpless soldier.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shrubberyman View Post
    I singled out Doc from your post because it strikes me as weird that sols are getting basically a Doc nemesis nano (Obliterate Caduceus, 50% NR check vs 50%MC+50%MM, which will debuff the doc's healing efficiency by 70 to 100%) opening yourself a 10s window to pump damage on them, but that doesn't seem to fuss you.
    Well let's see. 3 sec cast, that's insta for a soldier normally. But it's going to be a bit tougher with ubt running. So it's going to be a question of who gets what off first. And if it lands the soldier needs to do 30k+ pvp damage inside 10 seconds. Today that would be possible with as/fa swap. But after the big nerf who knows. 7500 from fa and perhaps 7000 from burst x2.
    But where are you getting the other 15500k pvp damage from inside that 10 second window.
    This is ofcourse assuming no reflects at all on the doc.

    The reality of this nano is that in a 1 vs 1 situation it will rarely make a big impact on the outcome. But in mass pvp with a few soldiers spamming this on docs that are already chased by everyone it will KILL the fun for the docs. It's the kind of 1 button killer that noone wants but we're still getting it forced upon us. Sad/bad idea and I hope they remove it asap.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shrubberyman View Post
    I also singled out NTs, because you managed to finish by "They will win" without having the singlest idea of what will be NT's toolset and abilities. There is something irrational in foreseeing NT's victory over Sols when all we can guess is that NT will prolly still be a DD focused profession. A bit too thin for chewing imo...
    Well, we need to be able to kill them before ams goes down. I seriously doubt their defences are going to get nerfed at all. Noone has even mentioned that. So.. We won't win.

    What I'm saying in general is that for a soldier to be able to kill anything everyone elses defences have to be nerfed similarly to what ams/tms was. And so far nothing has even come close to that in the other nano docs. Which leads me to belive that it's not happening. We shall see. Well. Those who will still be in game when this hits live will see.

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