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Thread: New Engineer Nano Changes!

  1. #161
    Quote Originally Posted by Alceona View Post
    Ps: Means perk documentation are not an adequate to this new nano changes.
    They most likely will be redoing the perk documentation once all the professions are done with nano wise. That way they can be reflected to the changes of the nanos (which shouldn't take as long given that perks are mostly numbers more than anything).
    220/30 - Spartanx9. Back for a good while.

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  2. #162
    Quote Originally Posted by Technogen View Post
    change a good % of them to buff tradeskills. or offer Nanoskills OR tradeskills
    Yes low lvl engineer will lose possability to cast good droid with it, becouse Mochies and wrangler will be usless for them.

    New nanos that rise our trade skill could change the mochams, but it Removes attack/def skills from buffs. What will we get with it? Noody engi without protection nanos? What is a point to add trade skill nanos to profession that needs a much less trade skills for craft than for nano buffing if you make it impossible to use for nano buffing? Ore does "Removes attack/def skills from buffs" tag mean that it overwrite previus version of this nano?
    Last edited by Alceona; Nov 20th, 2010 at 11:21:53.
    Nemezyda PvP/DD/Solo PVM/tradeskill engineer.
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  3. #163
    Quote Originally Posted by Alceona View Post
    Yes low lvl engineer will lose possability to cast good droid with it, becouse Mochies and wrangler will be usless for them.

    New nanos that rise our trade skill could change the mochams, but it Removes attack/def skills from buffs. What will we get with it? Noody engi without protection nanos? What is a point to add trade skill nanos to profession that needs a much less trade skills for craft than for nano buffing if you make it impossible to use for nano buffing? Ore does "Removes attack/def skills from buffs" tag mean that it overwrite previus version of this nano?
    The removal of the attack defence skill looks like its just removing the 50% mc 50% TS 0% nano resist checks on buffs and such.

    Basically for buffs there are not checks to see if they'll land, they'll land as long as there is ncu for it as there is no need for aggressive checks on them, specially ones that are basically 0% anyway.

    It doesn't mean the buffs are loosing any offensive or defensive capabilities, their just loosing unnecessary checks on casting.

    Combined with the promise of items change to allow for equal tradeskill support for engineers as they have nano support the only thing you can say your loosing is the time it will take to reset into tradeskills out of nanoskills, and seeing as how practically everyone will be having to do that come rebalance...

    Also i believe they already stated they will be adding on tradeskills to certain buffs/debuffs so that you wont loose current buffing ability, just instead of looking for MP's for mochams you'll look for engineers for tradeskill buffs and then head to a player city to get even bigger silly amounts of buffing.
    Last edited by Xenotric; Nov 20th, 2010 at 13:20:52.

  4. #164
    Quote Originally Posted by Alceona View Post
    Yes low lvl engineer will lose possability to cast good droid with it, becouse Mochies and wrangler will be usless for them.

    New nanos that rise our trade skill could change the mochams, but it Removes attack/def skills from buffs. What will we get with it? Noody engi without protection nanos? What is a point to add trade skill nanos to profession that needs a much less trade skills for craft than for nano buffing if you make it impossible to use for nano buffing? Ore does "Removes attack/def skills from buffs" tag mean that it overwrite previus version of this nano?
    Instead they'll need tradeskill buffs, and they'll be able to buff themselves instead of hunting a MP at each login. Attack/def on buffs aren't needed, it's a reminder that such old code is getting the boot.

    With all the offensive stuff being procs or casted through the bots, it's seems the engie nano set is giving up its offensive side.

    What it removes is the ability to combine mochams with wrangle and instead increase TS by the amount of the highest trader/engie tradeskill buff. But with the bots themselves changing (for the better I hope) it's less of a problem. The amount of IP saved however is great, and a newbie can hope to assume a position of TSer right from the start.

    What I'm concerned with is how an engie will handle multiple aggro, considering I put mine on hiatus because of this.
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  5. #165
    Other than the nemesis nano I didn't know engineers had any direct offense nanos?

    They all seem to be aura's from the engineer or pet.

    What it does mean is that engineers are very pet orientated, any offense comes from their pets, not them and with ways to aid the pets defense while tanking and keep things on them rather than the engineer.

    So ideally the engineer themselves should not get attacked much at all the odd attack weakened by their defenses so they can survive long enough for pets to pull them off.

    At lower levels they only have 1 pet but with great support for getting ridiculously high bots on that can massacre most mobs fought, at higher levels have multiple pets to be able to handle more and at the top level most content is team orientated anyway, and what content isn't adds shouldn't be too dangerous.

    Not many classes can really deal with large numbers of multiples by themselves.

  6. #166
    Quote Originally Posted by Kintaii View Post
    Alright guys, you've been waiting for this one for a while now, so without any further ado I present... The (first draft) Engineer Nano Document!

    Let's get the big one out of the way first:

    Tradeskills: Engineer nanos will now require tradeskills to cast instead of nanoskills. This allows Engineers to be able to focus their IP better, as well as freeing up IP expenditures in the future. It's important to note that as the itemization parts of the rebalancing work have not been detailed/released yet, we will be accommodating this new method of casting nanos in the Engineer's toolset beyond just nanoprograms.

    Tradeskills needed to cast nanos are as follows: Quantum Physics, Weapon Smithing, Electrical Engineering, Mechanical Engineering, and Chemistry. You may notice Tutoring listed in the nano document, but this will not be utilized for nanocasting going forward.
    I assume/hope that their will be a new T-skillilling formula that allows engis to take nano labs/qoils and convert the recs from Time space to whatever its T-skill equivilant is going to be?

  7. #167
    wow looks like we're getting nerfed pretty hard... I bet alot of 220 enigs will quit; as we seem to be getting shafted the most by these changes. The pet double reflect nerf combined with blind nerf may even make soloy city raids solo a thing of the past for some 220 engis; does fc intend to give us a new way to handle adds? I dont see us soloing effectively without our blinds - it us one of the most useful things in our toolset. Also, the tradeskill nano requirement is a nerf for 220 engineers who farmed hours for our alphas and also farmed items specifically for nano skill. Many, many items are going to have to be changed carefully for this revamp if it is actually implemented or it will be a kick in the nuts to 220s with alphas and a ton of different gear to cast nanos as is. these are some of my main grievances with these proposed changes among many others. I know I will probably quit subscribing if they nerf our solo ability like the document shows.

  8. #168
    It's impossible to judge the true impact of losing reflectACs on our pets without knowing how pets will be changed, as we know they're being "rebuilt from the ground up". We know they're supposedly gaining defense. Also, since engineers were more than capable of soloing ground raids well before Mechanized Reflect Shield was added to the game, I can't see how we could lose the ability to solo ground raids.

    I can't see how requiring tradeskills instead of nanoskills is a nerf, nor how this relates to farming and equipping alpha symbs, since these symbs add both tradeskills and nanoskills. Before we see what item changes are made, we can't say if items we've farmed to cast nanos will be useful or not. Perhaps *all* items with nanoskill bonuses will gain tradeskill bonuses.

    The loss of our key tool for managing adds is indeed a blow, and I hope this issue is addressed by FC, as well as the nerf to our blockers.

    I don't think there's a call for predicting mass-quitting of engineers, whether in alot configuration or not; the document has been submitted to us for feedback, which we are providing. Let's see how they respond before getting too upset :-) It's my understanding that after all profession rebalance nano documents have been produced, the devs will go back and review the changes to each profession.
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  9. #169
    All comes down to how the pets change, how items like the trimmers change (hopefully they will fix the ones that don't really work) and how people adjust themselves and if you can persuade them to add taunts to all the offensive pet procs in a scaling manner (least useful one gets the biggest taunt most useful gets the smallest).

    You may have lost your aoe blind from yourself, but that also means you've lost the 300ish taunt you caused every time, add to that stronger and more capable pets and hopefully a better taunt capabilities for them then keeping the aggro on them should be a lot more viable.

    One reason I really stopped playing engineer is because at a certain point pets stopped being able to tank reliably (aka when you've hit the top pet and mobs continue to get harder), the actual engineer character shouldn't really have ever had to tank, what's the point in building giant warmachines if the squishy nerd takes the damage?

    So if pets tanking gets better 2 to 3 mobs shouldn't be too hard to take, any more and I'd say you've overpulled, not many classes can handle so many adds easily.

    I would love to see the taunts added to all procs to some extent, a slight boost to the one thats already there (maybe another 200-300 on top with the other ones getting scaled from that) maybe a few k taunt added back onto the aoe snare so you have an emergency pull button for your pets as well. The taunts don't have to be enforcer like as pets shouldn't really be trying to tank for teams just for the 1 engineer but they need to be a more sure thing.
    Last edited by Xenotric; Nov 22nd, 2010 at 13:08:57.

  10. #170
    Quote Originally Posted by Xenotric View Post
    Also i believe they already stated they will be adding on tradeskills to certain buffs/debuffs so that you wont loose current buffing ability, just instead of looking for MP's for mochams you'll look for engineers for tradeskill buffs and then head to a player city to get even bigger silly amounts of buffing.
    Haha yeah that's pretty funny image, all the lowbie engies spamming their city HQs instead of twinking since there's no items to twink. xD
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  11. #171
    Was more thinking along the lines of "as well as"

    They said they'd be dealing with items so you'll still be able to twink like that, the city machines would just be a bonus (specially as I doubt they'll add tradeskills to the mining HQ city buff) so it will probably be slightly easier to get a higher pet on as an engineer after rebalance.

  12. #172
    Keeping it out of OE will be a challenge though, if you don't have gear that buffs TS like your blackshirt, neleb robe, and all the usual nanoskill buffing staples.
    bai2u!
    -::l2pvp!1::-
    Electronite: FFA also destroyed Clan hegemony when it comes to tower wars. Ironically the downfall was started by the most active pvpers. Another ironic thing is that the downfall happened due to pvm conflict. Silirrion: (We have pretty good anti-troll filters by now though) Means: Thong-wearing troxes will always be a part of this game and a point of AO pride. Keldros: Obviously reall trolls don't use conditioner Marlark: If this forum was Swedish in it's language .. id pawn you any day. 220 NT: tl7 is a joke most of the time. 90% of the people are double double dead. some are worth debuffing tho. Mastablasta: you guys are right and I'm wrong. Ebag: No. You alpha me'd due to the stat bug. More Ebag: I don't have any twinks currently, nor do I participate much in mass TL7 PvP (though I do go occasionally, usually just to watch). Questra: an MP in sneak eNSDed me and did about 20k damage in 10-12 seconds

  13. #173
    well those are the sort of items I expect them to alter or put similiar stuff in for engineers, I mean they clearly stated that there will be item support for the new engineer stuff (theres also plenty of current day TS boosting items to go as a base with)

    keeping it out of OE may be a challenge if you go to far with the twinking, but same can be said for these days, when you start stacking wrangles and mochams your opening yourself to OE problems, difference is after rebalance you'll be able to buff your own skills a bit higher self before looking into outside and temporary buffs such as wrangles and city machines.

  14. #174
    Well, I'm not into engi's but I just want to state that I find it sad what's happening here. I consider choice/variation very important and an important aspect of AO. I think you guys realize this as I've seen a few chances that increase the variation. For engi's an increase in variation was announced by making tradeskill engineers more variable. Instead you decided to make everybody tradeskill engineers. I consider this very sad, as I like the idea of sacrificing one thing to obtain another thing (e.g. a bit of damage for being a supreme tradeskiller) instead of just getting all the good stuff at once.

    I was going to force you into adding other kinds of variation (don't think I can change the current idea...) by threatening with illegal /ragequit as a froob (you'll be broke!), but I noticed engi's get more support for shotgun and RE weaponlines, so you beat me on that.

    Still I hope you can add more variation to these different weaponlines then simply the meshes and sounds being different.

    Because that's what it comes down to if you have different choices if ranged dd doing about the same. But I have to agree: shooting laserbeams, grenades or shotguns is way cooler then shooting simple pistol-bullets. Even if they do about the same damage and there is no other differences.

    Some random ideas to make differences in weapon-lines:
    - Shotgun: more damage, very short distance
    - Grenade multiple enemies at once
    - Ranged Energy: melee-init debuff proc because melee users get depressed by seeing laserbeams: it makes them feel medieval!
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  15. #175
    Quote Originally Posted by Edta View Post
    Well, I'm not into engi's but I just want to state that I find it sad what's happening here. I consider choice/variation very important and an important aspect of AO. I think you guys realize this as I've seen a few chances that increase the variation. For engi's an increase in variation was announced by making tradeskill engineers more variable. Instead you decided to make everybody tradeskill engineers. I consider this very sad, as I like the idea of sacrificing one thing to obtain another thing (e.g. a bit of damage for being a supreme tradeskiller) instead of just getting all the good stuff at once.
    If you grouped skills into 3 main categories (among others, but to keep it simple, let's say 3), you'd have Tradeskills, Nanoskills and Weapons.

    Engis have enough IP for 2 of them, while always needing additional IP for the category left behind. Now this is gone.

    So, it's actually a good thing for engis, because even those that went the PVP route, always needed some tradeskill in order to use some tools or allow some perks to land.

    Engis actually have more choices now, for other "categories" of skills.
    Last edited by Ocene; Nov 27th, 2010 at 21:59:44.

  16. #176
    Quote Originally Posted by Chrys View Post
    Keeping it out of OE will be a challenge though, if you don't have gear that buffs TS like your blackshirt, neleb robe, and all the usual nanoskill buffing staples.
    There are currently tons of items in game that add equal if not more tradeskills than nanoskill buffing items that go in corrosponding slots. Silver Boots instead of Prisoner boots, Beast gloves instead of DB gloves, alb tskill gizmo can replace hud 2 NCU wossname, etc.

    Also, why would I want a neleb's robe that takes 6 different skills for a paltry bonus when I can tripple imp tutoring and slide in all 3 focus funneling devices for a whopping 150 ME/EE? Suddenly I think that pioneer backpack is going to be a lot more useful... In fact, I'll donate my robe to a scientologist so he can make new drapes while I use the gizmo from noob island that blows it out of the water. 6k credits in noobland instead of "excuse me Mr Highlevel, can you obliterate this gray mob ploz?" I can dump 8 perks into Illogical Patterns at level 75 for 160 more tradeskills and raise my middle finger towards the 207 cap on CONC 10. 60 more skill and 2 extra AI perks? Deal. Problem Solving Device x5 at lvl 50 for 100 more. I think FC is going to be up to their ears in work combing the DB for all these things. With all this taken into consideration, I'm really not crying about the 15 skill we'll be losing out on when having to buffbeg an engi/trader for mastery/maestro instead of mochams.
    Last edited by Mostadio; Nov 29th, 2010 at 14:39:10.
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  17. #177
    Quote Originally Posted by Kintaii View Post
    To everyone raising concerns about the blind nerf: As we've stated before (and, knowing how this goes, will have to state again), the changes we're making to the professions are with the totality of the rebalancing in mind - NOT while taking into consideration the current state of balance in the game. Things like the blind nerf are *not* going to be as bad as it appears when taken in the context of *where we're going*.

    Comparing anything in the balance documentation with the current state of the game is just going to give you guys a headache and isn't really worth it. Just try to remember that this is all part of a larger picture that we're headed towards, not anything to do with the current state of balance in the game. =)
    Does this include:
    - Engi's not going squish when a 2nd mob shows up when soloing pvm?
    - Enfo not going squish doing a raid with a lot of mobs like Hollow Island (done by froobs)?

    I don't see why blinds are being nerfed in pvm, I thought you guys were going to make things have a different effect in pvm and pvp? This only works for perks? I also fail to grasp how other balance documentation can have an effect on engi's soloing and I doubt that you're going to make NT area blinds so powerful they account for the loss of engi blinds in raids...
    Edta 200 NT, froob , Setup, General of NEPA, Raid Leader of TLfiveplus (Froob Raids)
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  18. #178
    Quote Originally Posted by Edta View Post
    Does this include:
    - Engi's not going squish when a 2nd mob shows up when soloing pvm?
    - Enfo not going squish doing a raid with a lot of mobs like Hollow Island (done by froobs)?

    Why shouldn't an engi go squish when a 2nd mob shows up? I don't think it's unreasonable ... they have two pets, snares, etc... In otherwords, they have other ways to deal with adds. Why does blinds need to get a nerf in PVM? I would like to think it's because it's a pretty OPed nano.
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  19. #179
    To be able to solo Raids is not a requirement for balancing.
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  20. #180
    Quote Originally Posted by Obtena View Post
    Why shouldn't an engi go squish when a 2nd mob shows up? I don't think it's unreasonable ... they have two pets, snares, etc... In otherwords, they have other ways to deal with adds. Why does blinds need to get a nerf in PVM? I would like to think it's because it's a pretty OPed nano.
    Most engi's only have 1 pet. Snares don't stop mobs, especially not ranged mobs. Also, since the mob needs to be near pet before getting snared they still reach engi pretty fast and in lots of instances running around to stay away from these mobs will only attract more mobs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerusha View Post
    To be able to solo Raids is not a requirement for balancing.
    I'm not talking about soloing raids. I'm talking about 1. simple solo pvm content 2. raids with lots of people. For some froob raids the engi blinds are quite essential.
    Edta 200 NT, froob , Setup, General of NEPA, Raid Leader of TLfiveplus (Froob Raids)
    Neutral For Life, AO For Ever!
    Please, let Clan and Omni return to Neutral Clan/Omni Resignation forms!

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