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Thread: Petition To Keep Improved Precognition For Soldiers

  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Marinegent View Post
    For your closing point, yes, ADDING evades free of charge would not be right. But we give up (to some degree or another) ALL of the above stats in some way in order to make defense setups work. And I can give you the numbers, should you like to see them.
    Nothing stops you to get outside evade buffs, still. So...

    I see this striking you only as a personal insult of some kind, because you won't be able to buff yourself to gain full potential of defensive setup. In general, you don't lose anything on this department.
    Renowned jester of the double AS Tigress

    MP in sneak eNSDed me and did about 20k damage in 10-12 seconds

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by -Klod- View Post
    Nothing stops you to get outside evade buffs, still. So...

    I see this striking you only as a personal insult of some kind, because you won't be able to buff yourself to gain full potential of defensive setup. In general, you don't lose anything on this department.
    While I could indeed hug a crat and get RI from an MA and get the 12 man buff and run around like that in a full AR setup and still reach 3k evades, yes. (and don't quote me on this, because I know technically 100 from 12 man/410 crat aura/100 commanding pres/10 more from RI does not bring 2.1/2.2k to 3k, just making a point)

    However - Outside buffing, temporary pvm buffs, aura's, towers, etc are not a basis to discuss balance or what a profession should or shouldn't be capable of on it's own. These are all temporary things. Professions need to be looked at by themselves. If that isn't the way things were done, I could say fixers get too much reflects for not being a reflect profession, cause of rrfe!

    Or, Doctors have their own TMS!!! nerf their healing! I saw a soldier give a doctor RRFE then pop guardian on him and the doctor could tank a zerg and never die cause BI is a 10k heal and he had TMS!!! wtf!?

    You know?

    You just really can't use temporary boosts, and especially not ones outside of your own profession, as a basis for argument, because it really throws everything off to the point where nothing could ever logically be changed or modified because theres always that "what if" scenario where something would be OP as ****.
    Last edited by Marinegent; Nov 15th, 2010 at 19:44:57.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CuisinartBlade View Post
    to be fair, 2.8k ar is enough to perk anyone except fixers, mas, advs, shades, nt's that blinded you, shield mps, bow mps that landed dazzle, def docs, crats, or marinesold

    so all in all it's a fairly viable setup

  3. #63
    Well, you are so obviously wrong that it hurts. You are generalizing in a completely wrong way now.
    Renowned jester of the double AS Tigress

    MP in sneak eNSDed me and did about 20k damage in 10-12 seconds

  4. #64
    Oh marine... how I love some of your posts, they always seem to ignore everything else.

    for example to boost to RI that gives it a 4 hour duration and 150 evades buff, more than sufficient to make it useful for anything but multiple BS runs (unless of course MA's join in too)

    And I think the point many of the people have tried to make is that soldiers should not be self buffing their evades, they are not a profession that is designed around them and their tools generally don't do all that much to encourage them.

    I don't really even understand what your point is with your wild accusations... nerf doctors healing because they got outside buffs? What?

    No ones saying nerf soldiers reflects or AR because they can get outside buffs, we're saying you don't need and evade buff for your own as it doesn't match your profession.

    So if you wanted to make such a statement it would be more a long the lines of "nerf doctors weapon buff because their not a weapon class" which of course doesn't mean anything because they don't have a weapon buff because their not a weapon class.

    But if you want Iprecog and evade buffing for your soldier, then I say sure then can my fixer get a reflect buff equivalent to major reflective field? He'd like it for all those attacks that ignore his evades entirely.

  5. #65
    You can always spot a troll when their arguments start shrinking down to the size of a pea, and all they have to say to you, "You're wrong". I think thats when the debate is finally won.

  6. #66
    @ Xeno

    A lot of people seem to be suggesting that soldiers should not have I-precognition, because other professions can buff them with RI, or something else. I just think that isn't the basis for an argument, and compared it to a scenario about doctors. Take away doctor healing because they can get enough OSB to have TMS-like reflects. It just doesn't make sense and shouldn't be considered a valid point.

    That is all.

    Soldiers have always had a handful of semi-evade buffage. The special forces line, Precognition and Improved Precognition. The top full auto buff and some of the 2/3rd best full auto buffs also boost evades by a small amount. I feel like we were intended to have small boosts here and there via nanos/perk lines/etc and have about as much support as other professions like NT's who are considered a "semi evade profession". They have some sick offensive power and also can absorb more damage than any other single class in the game. But nobody has said "take away Dark Movement! Nukes dont support evades!", it just doesnt seem to make sense to me.

    Nukes, nanocost buffs, absorbs, and CC support evades about as much as Reflects, weapon buffs, and a perk HoT does. They don't really, but the key to my argument here is that it doesn't matter if the rest of the toolset supports evades. They can just be another addition to the toolset and I-precog is a good example of one that should remain in order to give soldiers more options.
    Last edited by Marinegent; Nov 15th, 2010 at 22:31:58.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CuisinartBlade View Post
    to be fair, 2.8k ar is enough to perk anyone except fixers, mas, advs, shades, nt's that blinded you, shield mps, bow mps that landed dazzle, def docs, crats, or marinesold

    so all in all it's a fairly viable setup

  7. #67
    Except healing fits a Doctor and it plus HP buffing is their only properly supported defense.

    And no ones said nerf soldiers anything because they can get outside buffs.

    whats being said is "don't give soldiers support for a defense that doesnt match the rest of their toolset" nothing about nerfing you because you can get outside buffs.

    The whole outside buffs thing is to point out that if you want to try and capatilize a skill that your profession doesn't support, just like everyone else you should have to go find professions that do to get the buffs.

    Your entire argument for having it revolves around "they've always had it and you don't see why they shouldn't have it even if it doesn't match the profession and that they'd need it to get an evade their not supported in to be reasonable"

    But fine, if you want an evade buff that you can self cast on your non evade class thats the current equivilent of the third best evade buff from actual evade classes then you can have it as long as evade classes get a self reflect buff equivalent to the third best reflect buff of the reflect classes. They may not get support for it but it doesnt matter if the rest of the toolset doesn't does it? they can be just another addition to the toolset.
    Last edited by Xenotric; Nov 15th, 2010 at 22:55:38.

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Vurtuoso View Post
    You can always spot a troll when their arguments start shrinking down to the size of a pea, and all they have to say to you, "You're wrong". I think thats when the debate is finally won.
    And then again, there are far worse "things" then trolls. This is where you step in.

    Back on topic...

    @Marinegent

    So, you do agree that each profession should be given "on target" versions of reflects, HoTs, weapon buffs etc...? Not the top-notch ones, of course, but again, better then those available on hacked grafts.
    Renowned jester of the double AS Tigress

    MP in sneak eNSDed me and did about 20k damage in 10-12 seconds

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Xenotric View Post
    But fine, if you want an evade buff that you can self cast on your non evade class thats the current equivilent of the third best evade buff from actual evade classes then you can have it as long as evade classes get a self reflect buff equivalent to the third best reflect buff of the reflect classes. They may not get support for it but it doesnt matter if the rest of the toolset doesn't does it? they can be just another addition to the toolset.
    I'm following your logic, and I do see what you are saying. However I believe there is an inherent difference between giving soldiers an evade buff which brings them to a whopping 2.2k dodge in a full offensive equip, and giving a profession that's already extremely hard to hit reflects to reduce the damage even further.

    There is a difference, and the difference is that you have to look at each profession differently and judge it by power and current defense options already. An evade profession with high support for reflects is as bad as giving an Offensive soldier a boost to the 3k evade mark.

    Now, if the evade profession gave up a hefty amount of evades or offense, seeing some reflects added as a trade off of CHOICE would be something totally fine in my eyes. As long as things come at a fair sacrifice, there is no problem. Problem with reflects in this is example is that reflects will give you a static boost to your profession without any sacrifice needed. But evades must be at a certain level before they even show at all, and even then are still mediocre. But at least that takes sacrifice to achieve a higher level.

    You can twink evades and you can't twink reflects. So comparing the two is a little hard to debate because it is somewhat apples and oranges. But hopefully you see my point.

    Quote Originally Posted by -Klod- View Post

    @Marinegent

    So, you do agree that each profession should be given "on target" versions of reflects, HoTs, heals, etc...? Not the top-notch ones, of course, but again, better then those available on hacked grafts.
    I believe that within reason, everyone should have a general amount of options at the cost of Sacrifice. Either sacrificing a little of everything, or sacrificing a huge portion of one strength in order to gain another ability/tool/strength.

    Such as is the case that I am debating here with soldiers.
    Leave "Marinegent" AScar - 220/23/65 Atrox Agent
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    Quote Originally Posted by CuisinartBlade View Post
    to be fair, 2.8k ar is enough to perk anyone except fixers, mas, advs, shades, nt's that blinded you, shield mps, bow mps that landed dazzle, def docs, crats, or marinesold

    so all in all it's a fairly viable setup

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Marinegent View Post
    I believe that within reason, everyone should have a general amount of options at the cost of Sacrifice. Either sacrificing a little of everything, or sacrificing a huge portion of one strength in order to gain another ability/tool/strength.

    Such as is the case that I am debating here with soldiers.
    But, once again, you didn't sacrifice anything to be able to cast that buff.

    You are drifting away now. But seriously, I'm not even sure what made FC to give you Improved Precognition in a first place.
    Renowned jester of the double AS Tigress

    MP in sneak eNSDed me and did about 20k damage in 10-12 seconds

  11. #71
    /signed

    Options and variations are good. One and only one direction is bad.
    General of First Order

  12. #72
    Again it comes down to, should you have a buff that is out of place for your profession which has no real support for it otherwise even for varieties sake.

    Because you don't sacrifice anything to cast a nano that takes the same skills as your other buffs so saying you have to sacrifice for it doesn't work.

    What you sacrifice is for a setup that gives you evades, not the buff and you shouldn't get a buff to self buff skills you have to sacrifice for.

    Thats not the same as you shouldn't have the option to sacrifice to get such things, thats fine and totally up to you, but you can't expect toolset support for it as well, instead like others trying to use skills they have to sacrifice for that they don't have support for you should have to go get the buffs from the toolsets that do.

    If there were no evade buffs at all that you could get then I'd have more sympathy for you, but there is, and I don't see why you should be able to buff a non supported set up when others can't.

    I mean I could sacrifice stuff on my fixer to wear hp and reflect giving items, but I'd have to go to the professions that actually have support for hp and reflects to get the nano buffs for such set ups, as my own toolset doesn't so it doesn't contain any buffs.

    Though as said, I wouldn't mind getting a reflect and hp nano set to go with such set ups, of course they'd also help those that don't sacrifice anything for such set ups as well but oh well.

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by -Klod- View Post
    Well, you are so obviously wrong that it hurts. You are generalizing in a completely wrong way now.
    ~AND~
    Quote Originally Posted by Vurtuoso View Post
    You can always spot a troll when their arguments start shrinking down to the size of a pea, and all they have to say to you, "You're wrong". I think thats when the debate is finally won.
    I agree, I think Marine pretty much won his side. And I am going to cave in on this one. Seeing Marine make valid, reasonable argument for keeping this I am going to agree. This is 2010, and re-balance is coming soon. Cookie Cutters are already there, if someone wants to have a buff that doesn't really impact much then why not?

    /signed

    As for people who again didn't make a point...
    Quote Originally Posted by Xenotric View Post
    Oh marine... how I love some of your posts, they always seem to ignore everything else.

    for example to boost to RI that gives it a 4 hour duration and 150 evades buff, more than sufficient to make it useful for anything but multiple BS runs (unless of course MA's join in too)

    And I think the point many of the people have tried to make is that soldiers should not be self buffing their evades, they are not a profession that is designed around them and their tools generally don't do all that much to encourage them.

    I don't really even understand what your point is with your wild accusations... nerf doctors healing because they got outside buffs? What?

    No ones saying nerf soldiers reflects or AR because they can get outside buffs, we're saying you don't need and evade buff for your own as it doesn't match your profession.

    So if you wanted to make such a statement it would be more a long the lines of "nerf doctors weapon buff because their not a weapon class" which of course doesn't mean anything because they don't have a weapon buff because their not a weapon class.

    But if you want Iprecog and evade buffing for your soldier, then I say sure then can my fixer get a reflect buff equivalent to major reflective field? He'd like it for all those attacks that ignore his evades entirely.
    This guy completely missed the points Marine was saying. When you are dueling, you don't duel with the intention of having sick outside buffs. It would be like a doctor wanting duels but showing up with RRFE. How fair is that? Point is the game shouldn't be dictated by the number of OSB. He never asked for any nerfs, and people need to improve reading comprehension skills.

    PvP should not come down to how many outside buffs you got, and you very well may have more with 4h buffs. But that is not what setups should be around. You don't say you have a setup with 60% crit when you need outside buffs (TTS/MoP) just to get it there. Really hope no more comments are added like the one I just read. How can Marine make an argument if people can't even read it?
    Last edited by tharss; Nov 16th, 2010 at 00:20:51.
    Ctrlaltwin. Man. Legend.

  14. #74
    Of course. We understand. But... You can’t eat your cake and have it too.
    Renowned jester of the double AS Tigress

    MP in sneak eNSDed me and did about 20k damage in 10-12 seconds

  15. #75
    What valid argument?

    The most I've seen is the statement that it's needed to make a non supported set up slightly more feasible.

    If that's the entire arguement that's persuaded you I want to see every profession getting buffs for every set up there toolset doesn't support.

    For example that doctor turning up for the duel shouldn't have to get rrfe, instead they should be able to self buff reflects while the soldier buffs his evades.

    Profession toolsets SHOULD be cookie cutter, that's how they get definition, variety should come from how people distribute their ip/equipment and make use of others ability to buff skills their own toolset lacks.

    I mean marine makes some of the biggest points for this, he clearly states how much sacrifice it takes to get this set up and how even then it's not so effective. This showing how it isn't meant to be supported.

    Just because you can make a build for it does not give you the right to get support for it, otherwise what's the point in having any professions? What if I built an assualt rifle nt? Does that mean I should get assault rifle buffs for nt's? Because without them I wouldn't be able to self buff myself stat, would make me have to rely on osb's.

    If not why not? Is it so different to what's being asked here?

    Asking for support for something that clearly isn't supported is silly and would have to apply to everyone and every skill equally to be fair and truely remove "cookie cutter" professions.

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by -Klod- View Post
    And then again, there are far worse "things" then trolls. This is where you step in.

    Back on topic...

    @Marinegent

    So, you do agree that each profession should be given "on target" versions of reflects, HoTs, weapon buffs etc...? Not the top-notch ones, of course, but again, better then those available on hacked grafts.
    As for being a troll nemesis. You got that right. If someone starts thinking that a debate can be solved entirely by opinion as if they have been chosen by some higher being as the intellectual superior, I will be there to swat them from the sky like the irritating mosquitoes they are.

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by Xenotric View Post
    What valid argument?

    The most I've seen is the statement that it's needed to make a non supported set up slightly more feasible.

    If that's the entire arguement that's persuaded you I want to see every profession getting buffs for every set up there toolset doesn't support.

    For example that doctor turning up for the duel shouldn't have to get rrfe, instead they should be able to self buff reflects while the soldier buffs his evades.

    Profession toolsets SHOULD be cookie cutter, that's how they get definition, variety should come from how people distribute their ip/equipment and make use of others ability to buff skills their own toolset lacks.

    I mean marine makes some of the biggest points for this, he clearly states how much sacrifice it takes to get this set up and how even then it's not so effective. This showing how it isn't meant to be supported.

    Just because you can make a build for it does not give you the right to get support for it, otherwise what's the point in having any professions? What if I built an assualt rifle nt? Does that mean I should get assault rifle buffs for nt's? Because without them I wouldn't be able to self buff myself stat, would make me have to rely on osb's.

    If not why not? Is it so different to what's being asked here?

    Asking for support for something that clearly isn't supported is silly and would have to apply to everyone and every skill equally to be fair and truely remove "cookie cutter" professions.
    You have yet to clearly read his points, and of course I wouldn't expect or even fathom how you could comprehend if you didn't even understand Marine's last post. There are always buffs/items/weapons that do not make sense in this game. I think being a soldier is more then big guns and weak defense...they should at least have a choice to have a partially gimped defense.

    No profession SHOULD have to resort to cookie cutter, some like MAs are forced to (Shen sticks or just fist). Just like if an MP sacrifices to be a shield MP...it doesn't mean he shouldn't be able to hold a solid defense. I think you aren't thinking this out, and are spouting off in this manor. I shouldn't even respond, but I did to tell you this: it isn't supported, but that doesn't mean it can't at least be tried. I've seen evade engineers tried, I'll at least give comfort to anything people want to try.

    Just because something is "silly" doesn't mean it can't be tried, and cookie cutter should NEVER EVER be force on ANY profession. Yeah, even MAs need different weapons. I guess I came in this thread seeing it as "silly" and not plausible in my head...but that is not the approach to take. Soldiers should not be forced into a high HP/Assault Rifle setup.
    Ctrlaltwin. Man. Legend.

  18. #78
    Precog should have never been in a soldier buff toolset, ever.
    Posted by Seventh: Has something to do with the fact that RL speaking im 172 sm high and weight 96 kg, all of which come in muscle form (and guessing your reaction about forum pvp, yes i can log into webcam )

    Said the pixels lol..

  19. #79
    Soldiers clealy should have a bigger evade buff than MP's. That's just logic.

  20. #80
    /signed for sake of variety in setups

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