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Thread: Friday with Means - November 19th, 2010: The Sky is Not Falling

  1. #221
    Quote Originally Posted by Lupusceleri View Post
    I'd be curious to hear how much space your Windows 7 installation consumes, excluding games or the Users folder.
    Considering I don't have Windows 7 I'd be hard pressed to give you an answer. I have Vista *hides in shame*

    But to answer anyway my Windows installation takes 20 gigs, twice as much as Linux. But: for 0.083$/gig (64MB, 7200 RPM, SATA III: 1TB HD for 86$), I think the 83 cents (for 10 gigs more for Windows) is worth access to any game or application I want.

    Is AO worth enough to you to pay 83 cents more in HD space to install Windows?
    Last edited by Siyra; Nov 24th, 2010 at 02:12:36.
    Shhh... I'm in disguise.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tazalanche View Post
    People that continuously insult the player base TRYING to level, while asking why the population is so low, need to get a clue.

  2. #222
    Quote Originally Posted by Siyra View Post
    Considering I don't have Windows 7 I'd be hard pressed to give you an answer. I have Vista *hides in shame*

    But to answer anyway my Windows installation takes 20 gigs, twice as much as Linux. But: for 0.083$/gig (64MB, 7200 RPM, SATA III: 1TB HD for 86$), I think the 83 cents (for 10 gigs more for Windows) is worth access to any game or application I want.

    Is AO worth enough to you to pay 83 cents more in HD space to install Windows?
    Is AO worth rebooting every time I want to play it, where I can't access my music collection unless I throw it on a terrible filesystem, and completely overhauling my partition scheme?

    It's not just the money, you know.
    Lupusceleri L220/30/70 Agent -- Advisor of Spartans -- equip endgame AR setup endgame def setup <3 Azs wearer of Cheree's pants
    Arrowsmith -- Arafellin -- Alphacenta -- Aesculapias -- Wolfseye -- Lysdexic


    TL5 enf twink: im out those MPs are to overpowered

    crattey: The Balance Discussion forum. Where common sense goes to die.

  3. #223
    Quote Originally Posted by Lupusceleri View Post
    Is AO worth rebooting every time I want to play it, where I can't access my music collection unless I throw it on a terrible filesystem, and completely overhauling my partition scheme?
    Not if you currently play an Agent, hahaha
    The Fine Arts:
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    Xirayne: I couldn't care less about who is clueless or what the exact definition "real" pvp is in ao, I want "fun" pvp!

  4. #224
    Quote Originally Posted by Lupusceleri View Post
    It's not just the money, you know.
    Whether it's money, or rebooting, or altering partitions, or waiting till someone alters Linux (seeing as Funcom has long stated they don't officially support Linux it is not their job to fix it) it comes down to: what price are you willing to pay to play AO?

    Personally I've gone so far as holding back upgrading my graphics card because when I did last time it made AO unplayable for me. So I'm sticking with an old card, forgoing other games or playing them on lower graphic settings, so that I can keep AO till the new engine.

    So either pick an inconvenience/hassle, or deal without AO. It is not Funcoms job to fix this, because they didn't break anything. The game works fine on Windows, so the problem lies with Linux. Fix Linux, or quit.

    Or, of course, keep complaining because you're a Linux user and feel that Funcom has slighted you by denying you access knowing full well that you've been playing on a system that it was never designed for.
    Shhh... I'm in disguise.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tazalanche View Post
    People that continuously insult the player base TRYING to level, while asking why the population is so low, need to get a clue.

  5. #225
    Quote Originally Posted by Kopecz View Post
    I'll field this one:


    Because they're smarter than you, duh!


    1: Never preface a statement with "Because I'm American". There's a reason the rest of the world doesn't like us, not the least of which is "Hur hur I'm American."
    2: Who the hell says that everyone has to send Bill Gates $100 every time they want an operating system? It is a free market after all and competition breeds innovation. So bump for everyone that uses a different OS. I don't , but that's not really what's important.
    I'll preface however I want to, and not one person mentioned me being American. But Hur hur, tard.

    Quote Originally Posted by NoGoal View Post
    Replace Linux by AO and Windows by .. Why are you still here?!

    If no one supports the minority, it will stay a minority (if not worse).
    Wal-mart, America, Microsoft, and big oil already runs America, why try to resist it now?

    I get that though, I am sure your Nogoalness saw the sarcasm in my post...the point is Funcom is lacking the funds/time to move on supporting other OS.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tryqz View Post
    qft.

    I wonder, is it the OP's opinion that Waldgeist should bugger off out of these community threads and stop doing German translations because they should "Speak English like the rest of us"?
    Good idea, Ich verstehe nicht Deutche. Ich verstehe English mother ****er.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lupusceleri View Post
    I used legal versions of Windows XP, Vista, and 7 - I had it permanently installed on my PC before ever touching Linux, and used it every day.

    To try something new I started dualbooting (K)ubuntu, and I happened to love it. The KDE desktop environment and window manager completely blow anything Windows has out of the water, making my college work on the PC a lot easier to keep overview on.

    Then I discovered the ease of finding and installing new free useful programs through a "package manager", you know, the kind you have to cruise 50 near-malware websites for on Windows only to find that the only one worth a crap is a 7 day trial version. You click the install button, it pulls in all the dependencies for you, and the best part is that we're talking kilobytes instead of megabytes or even gigabytes because the programs link to existing libraries. Example - GIMP, which is comparable to Photoshop, takes up 30 Mb harddrive space as opposed to Photoshop CS5's 1.5 Gb.

    The only disadvantage so far is the fact gaming companies usually don't develop native Linux versions of their games, which means you have to screw around with Wine-like programs. Everything else? There's a free alternative out there which is on par with, if not better than, the commercial version of the program.
    ~and~
    Quote Originally Posted by SoulTarder View Post
    smart and mechanically-minded are not necessarily the same thing. my neighbour down the street can take apart literally anything, figure out how it works, and put it back together. he is also not what people would call intellectual.

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    i think the correct term would be "common sense." 99% of people have the sense to use windows when playing software designed for windows, hence why its common sense.

    I used linux while i was in school, and got caught up in the whole "community project" craze that every compsci/software student does. at some point it suddenly occured to me, if someone is a great programmer/software engineer/designer, would they not work for companies like microsoft (or another large software producer) and not have time for freeware projects? and if these same great minds perchance are doing freeware stuff on the side like wine/(cedega?) project, then new stuff would get done when they felt like it, not when its needed --> and therein lies the real difference between open-source vs. professionally designed software: I m paying you to get it done nao! vs. I might get to the fix this weekend, or perhaps maybe next weekend :~

    open source is a great concept and dream, the problem is, whenever something is used by a large chunk of the consumer base, it becomes too much of a cash cow to remain open source. and really, its great that some people manage to fit a round peg into a square hole, (Im speaking strictly of running AO on a non-windows based OS, not writing a document or something) but in all reality, its serves no larger purpose than self gratification for achieving the bizarre. my 2 funcom points.
    Thanks Lupus and Soultarder, learned a lot in these two post alone. Even easier to read then wikipedia.

    I hope they support the playerbase, and 1.4% seems like a lot compared to other MMOs.
    Ctrlaltwin. Man. Legend.

  6. #226
    Quote Originally Posted by SultryVoltron View Post
    Not if you currently play an Agent, hahaha
    So true. And they killed TL5 BS which was the other place I got my PvP fix from... it was pretty much the last drop.
    Quote Originally Posted by Siyra View Post
    Personally I've gone so far as holding back upgrading my graphics card because when I did last time it made AO unplayable for me. So I'm sticking with an old card, forgoing other games or playing them on lower graphic settings, so that I can keep AO till the new engine.
    Newer nVidia cards are all right with AO, from my experience. Perhaps you could ask around on the forums to see if anyone else owns the card you are planning to buy and could let you in on whether or not it works?

    Quote Originally Posted by Siyra View Post
    So either pick an inconvenience/hassle, or deal without AO. It is not Funcoms job to fix this, because they didn't break anything. The game works fine on Windows, so the problem lies with Linux. Fix Linux, or quit.

    Or, of course, keep complaining because you're a Linux user and feel that Funcom has slighted you by denying you access knowing full well that you've been playing on a system that it was never designed for.
    Look. There's a big difference between:

    - Not officially supporting an OS for whichever reason (for example to avoid setting a precedent), BUT still giving the community a hint every now and then. See f.ex. Macrosun's nice how-to in Tech Help.

    And:

    - Refusing to offer any information whatsoever which might help the community work around the problem on their own (such as how Awesomium interacts with the game).

    If a new feature breaks unsupported OSes, so be it, but it'd be nice to see a bit of information/help (this does NOT mean "significant resources" such as investigating the problem or actual coding) coming from the other side too if it can potentially get the issue fixed much faster.
    Lupusceleri L220/30/70 Agent -- Advisor of Spartans -- equip endgame AR setup endgame def setup <3 Azs wearer of Cheree's pants
    Arrowsmith -- Arafellin -- Alphacenta -- Aesculapias -- Wolfseye -- Lysdexic


    TL5 enf twink: im out those MPs are to overpowered

    crattey: The Balance Discussion forum. Where common sense goes to die.

  7. #227
    Where are they refusing to give information? Has Means or Kiantii, or others, posted specifically that they would not be helping at all? Or is that just yet another case of players making speculations/assumptions and killing an ant with an atom bomb (exaggeration/overkill)?

    Granted I can't keep track of, or remember, every post they've made so maybe they did say it somewhere.

    It's been 6 days since the patch and already we have people (rage)quitting because it isn't solved yet. Don't you think that's a little over the top? Have some patience people, for all we know Funcom is trying to fix it but doesn't know where/what's going wrong.
    Shhh... I'm in disguise.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tazalanche View Post
    People that continuously insult the player base TRYING to level, while asking why the population is so low, need to get a clue.

  8. #228
    So far I haven't seen clear requests for information regarding Awesomium on the forums.
    I've only read there Funcom is apparently refusing to give information... but has anyone really asked?

    If it really comes down to specific information, by all means create a thread dedicated to this.
    List very specifically the information needed for this to be fixed.
    If the requests are reasonable and the answers something FC can answer, I'd think they'd actually take some time to do this.

    But someone with some strong knowledge in this area needs to step up and ask.
    And these questions need to be specific. General questions by someone who's never programmed before is not really likely to help resolve the problem.

    Funcom can't help if no one is asking the right questions.
    Last edited by Vhaxx; Nov 24th, 2010 at 07:56:48.
    Formerly Vhab.
    Once upon a time ruled a server. And then sold out. Sorry.

  9. #229
    Quote Originally Posted by Lupusceleri View Post
    Is AO worth rebooting every time I want to play it, where I can't access my music collection unless I throw it on a terrible filesystem, and completely overhauling my partition scheme?

    It's not just the money, you know.
    Well, a cold boot to Win7 takes about 1 minute, I think I could spare that once in a while besides, like I said somewhere else, getting multiple systems is cheap. Likely you're not doing something that requires a lot of hardware beef for the actual making it part when running linux, as Windows offers rather a lot more use out of every piece of hardware in the premium software suites, and thus could make due with a cheap PC for the schoolwork and a powerful one for gaming. <3
    Thor Mastablasta Hammersmith - Level 220, AI 30, LE 70 Clan Atrox Nano Technician - Setup
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    I'm a Nano-Technician, don't ever expect me to fight unbuffed, alone or fair.

    Means: about f'ing time :P
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  10. #230
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  11. #231
    Quote Originally Posted by Vhab View Post
    So far I haven't seen clear requests for information regarding Awesomium on the forums.
    I've only read there Funcom is apparently refusing to give information... but has anyone really asked?

    If it really comes down to specific information, by all means create a thread dedicated to this.
    List very specifically the information needed for this to be fixed.
    If the requests are reasonable and the answers something FC can answer, I'd think they'd actually take some time to do this.

    But someone with some strong knowledge in this area needs to step up and ask.
    And these questions need to be specific. General questions by someone who's never programmed before is not really likely to help resolve the problem.

    Funcom can't help if no one is asking the right questions.
    There have been a few posts asking specifically for those informations. I have PM'ed Means about that issue and the general answer was
    Quote Originally Posted by Means
    ...I will not be asking Macrosun to prioritize this problem.
    .
    Additionally, it seems as the Awesomium.dll is a special build
    Quote Originally Posted by Means
    ... the Awesomium version we are using is not open-source like the free one offered on his site...as such we can't "Hand it out" to that community even if we would like to.
    My further questions regarding build process, incooperation of the new dlls and such have been unanswered so far. I am not saying i have asked the right questions. In fact, only WINE developer would be able to do this. In fact, we didnt get any (be it relevant or not) of our questions answered so far.

    The questions are there. The answers are missing.
    Level 200 Nanomage Nano-Technician on Rimor speaking... - Unit Commander of Knights of Ka
    Toons:(*=froobs)
    Zzzzzzwap* (inofficial main),
    Krisplin* (main, but buff whore),
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  12. #232
    Quote Originally Posted by DocJones View Post
    The questions are there. The answers are missing.
    Wow, that sounds about a billion times worse than it really is.

    Here are my silly questions

    1. Is Linux being funded by terrorists?
    2. Do you know Osama Bin Wine?
    3. Has Count Von Count stolen your IQ and sold it to the black math market?
    4. How the hell is 1.4% managed to play all these years without the game specifically being made for a different OS and now all of a sudden expect ANY kind of tech support (which is what you ARE asking) for something the game was... never made for.
    5. Not a question. You are brave and probably smarter than most to be able to play AO on Linux, and likely to be able to get the answers you seek before the devs could figure it out.
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  13. #233
    So far seems like fair answers.
    It would be unreasonable to prioritize this problem as there clearly are some bigger issues still out there affecting people on the supported platform (ex. the mouse scroll issue).
    And they can't give out the source because of contractual obligations.

    Could you post your other unanswered questions?

    It sounds like you're asking the wrong questions. And this is something we (the community at large) are not able to comment on because it's all happening in private in PM's.

    Some of these questions I might be able to answer even. Mostly from reading FWM.
    We know they use Visual Studio 2005, is there anything specific about the build process you need to know?

    The implementation of Awesomium into AO might not stray that far from the samples provided by in the free Awesomium package.
    Has anyone tried if Awesomium (the free package) actually runs on Wine?

    If it doesn't, Wine developers should be able to get the bulk of the information they need from there directly.
    If it does, we know something AO did to it is the cause.
    These are big steps that can narrow down the issue before feedback from FC is needed even.

    Like I said, FC is probably unable to help without either very specific questions or throwing a lot of resources at it.
    Formerly Vhab.
    Once upon a time ruled a server. And then sold out. Sorry.

  14. #234
    Quote Originally Posted by Lupusceleri View Post
    You click the install button, it pulls in all the dependencies for you, and the best part is that we're talking kilobytes instead of megabytes or even gigabytes because the programs link to existing libraries. Example - GIMP, which is comparable to Photoshop, takes up 30 Mb harddrive space as opposed to Photoshop CS5's 1.5 Gb.
    That's a very (very) bad argument. Not only about dependencies but also photoshop' size. Take a look at what is inside those 1.5Gb and compare with what gimp has in its 30Mb. Size is completely irrelevant.
    blah

  15. #235
    Quote Originally Posted by Siegetank View Post
    Wal-mart, America, Microsoft, and big oil already runs America, why try to resist it now?
    If that's how you're looking at it, time for you all to jump ship to Crapple's OSX, since their market share is growing, rapidly, and Microsoft's is not.

    There's a lot of clueless and ill informed posts in this thread, no doubt they'll be the ones FC pays attention to. "Windows gets more out of each piece of hardware" said Masta. Hahahaha what?
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    Quote Originally Posted by randomalpha View Post
    in the end soldier is not Op or even near from that never was never will be just for the record only keepers are the ones before soldiers on the nerfest list
    Genius at work.

  16. #236
    Quote Originally Posted by Vhab View Post
    So far seems like fair answers.
    It would be unreasonable to prioritize this problem as there clearly are some bigger issues still out there affecting people on the supported platform (ex. the mouse scroll issue).
    And they can't give out the source because of contractual obligations.

    Could you post your other unanswered questions?

    It sounds like you're asking the wrong questions. And this is something we (the community at large) are not able to comment on because it's all happening in private in PM's.

    Some of these questions I might be able to answer even. Mostly from reading FWM.
    We know they use Visual Studio 2005, is there anything specific about the build process you need to know?

    The implementation of Awesomium into AO might not stray that far from the samples provided by in the free Awesomium package.
    Has anyone tried if Awesomium (the free package) actually runs on Wine?

    If it doesn't, Wine developers should be able to get the bulk of the information they need from there directly.
    If it does, we know something AO did to it is the cause.
    These are big steps that can narrow down the issue before feedback from FC is needed even.

    Like I said, FC is probably unable to help without either very specific questions or throwing a lot of resources at it.
    I totally agree with you, i dont request the dev team to *work* on that issue in terms of programmatic changes. I just request informations from them:
    Quote Originally Posted by DocJones
    But compiling a short list on the specialised things in the Awesomium library and perhaps a few details about the inter process communication between client.exe and AwesomiumProcess.exe (and the relation of the DLL itself) would help a ton.
    was one of my last questions. The problem is, i cant throw all relevant questions at once at them. I merely have to dig into that issue and try to solve it either by myself (highly unlikely) or get the informations to the WINE dev team for them to fix. And while digging into it, more questions arise.

    EDIT: Everyone interessted can check this post and the related forum posts referenced within. There are lots of questions regarding awesomium buried. I guess i have to compile a list then...
    Last edited by DocJones; Nov 24th, 2010 at 12:07:43.
    Level 200 Nanomage Nano-Technician on Rimor speaking... - Unit Commander of Knights of Ka
    Toons:(*=froobs)
    Zzzzzzwap* (inofficial main),
    Krisplin* (main, but buff whore),
    Theophrastus* (piercing doc - aka froob shade)
    Kosminski (Shade - Yes, i went paid...)
    Codeleet (s10 & pvp)
    ~ Founder of TL5+ - Rimor TL5+ froob raid force ~ || ~ My Tweet... ~

  17. #237
    This sounds like something we could dig up from Awesomium ourselves.
    As that communication seems to be specific to Awesomium and not specific to what FC has done.

    Your question is actually really general. Without being familiar with Wine's inner workings it's not trivial to compile a list of 'specialized things' that may be relevant to finding the solution.
    Remember it's not just some code FC added. There's all of Chromium and Awesomium in there. That's a huge chunk of 3rd party code.

    In fact, FC might not even entirely know how that part (the IPC part) works as they're using the library and are not the original developers of it.
    I can understand why FC wouldn't answer such questions as they'll probably have to do some digging themselves to figure that out.
    Without a really specific question you're asking them to find a needle in a haystack.

    There really needs to be some testing with the vanilla Awesomium on Wine before we can determine what kind of information we'd need from FC to get this problem fixed.
    And so far it seems nobody has done this yet. It may actually be too early to pin this on FC.
    Last edited by Vhaxx; Nov 24th, 2010 at 12:16:51.
    Formerly Vhab.
    Once upon a time ruled a server. And then sold out. Sorry.

  18. #238
    Quote Originally Posted by Siyra View Post
    Where are they refusing to give information? Has Means or Kiantii, or others, posted specifically that they would not be helping at all? Or is that just yet another case of players making speculations/assumptions and killing an ant with an atom bomb (exaggeration/overkill)?
    See DocJones' post which says Means did not want to answer any questions in PMs, that's where I got it from (and a radio silence after asking a few general questions in this thread days ago).

    Quote Originally Posted by Siyra View Post
    It's been 6 days since the patch and already we have people (rage)quitting because it isn't solved yet. Don't you think that's a little over the top? Have some patience people, for all we know Funcom is trying to fix it but doesn't know where/what's going wrong.
    Not ragequitting, but simply unable to log on. I doubt many of our accounts ran out the exact day that patch hit Live.

    FWIW, Neo-Vortex found a very dirty workaround for the Awesomium problem - simply stripping the complete DLL down to an empty shell. In other words the option to simply "disable" the browser.

    There's issues still, because the game crashes the instant you try to open the browser, and FC is going to make the game depend more and more on it in the future. You also have to manually copy the "fake" DLL every time you want to start the client to pass the checksumming process.

    The first steps have been taken, and now we have general idea what's wrong we can hopefully go all the way in solving it.

    http://bugs.winehq.org/show_bug.cgi?id=25206
    http://aodevs.com/index.php/topic,852.0.html
    Last edited by Lupusceleri; Nov 25th, 2010 at 02:01:36.
    Lupusceleri L220/30/70 Agent -- Advisor of Spartans -- equip endgame AR setup endgame def setup <3 Azs wearer of Cheree's pants
    Arrowsmith -- Arafellin -- Alphacenta -- Aesculapias -- Wolfseye -- Lysdexic


    TL5 enf twink: im out those MPs are to overpowered

    crattey: The Balance Discussion forum. Where common sense goes to die.

  19. #239

  20. #240
    Quote Originally Posted by Lupusceleri View Post
    See DocJones' post which says Means did not want to answer any questions in PMs, that's where I got it from (and a radio silence after asking a few general questions in this thread days ago).
    This statement gets more twisted as it gets passed along from person to person...
    Please read my post on the previous page regarding this.
    Please don't confuse 'being unable to answer' with 'do not want to answer'.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lupusceleri View Post
    The first steps have been taken, and now we have general idea what's wrong we can hopefully go all the way in solving it.
    With all respect, this really isn't much progress to a solution.
    The assumption Awesomium was the cause of the problem has been confirmed.
    This is good, but already was pretty much a given.
    It's still a huge haystack with a needle in it that needs to be found.

    I'm glad NV came up with a short term workaround to the problem though.
    But keep up the pressure on the Wine team. They're the ones that ultimately will fix this problem.
    Last edited by Vhaxx; Nov 25th, 2010 at 15:34:33.
    Formerly Vhab.
    Once upon a time ruled a server. And then sold out. Sorry.

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