Remove CH form Agent Shadow/Mimic Line

[Cyberleet]

May aim is this you insecure toolbag of a professional -

Try make any of them give feedback regarding detaunts or have a constructive discussion

I refuse to make an agent because I see what the inevitably become in all raid and pvp situations = docs with rifles..

They should rename the profession to; 'Assault-Doctor'...or just improve the doctor-profession while making agents into what they are supposed to be.

[Blackcradle]

I refuse to make an agent because I see what the inevitably become in all raid and pvp situations = docs with rifles. if i wanted a doc with a rifle I would make a doc with a rifle.

Sounds like you know tons about the Agent profession as a whole. I can't imagine why anyone might respond to your posts in a hostile way, especially the Agent professional who perhaps cares about the vast misrepresentation of Agents by most people on forums...

[Lupusceleri]

Well that was overtly hostile. Did I seem that hostile in first post? Sorry if I did, let me clear that up now.

You were an obvious troll in the first post. Trolls shouldn't be surprised when they don't get "nice" answers.

May aim is this you insecure toolbag of a professional -

Did I hit a nerve?

I really like the idea and function of an agent. I refuse to make an agent because I see what the inevitably become in all raid and pvp situations = docs with rifles. if i wanted a doc with a rifle I would make a doc with a rifle.

I wanted to get real and honest opinions about why agents have just the one predominant toolset and what suggestions there are to fix it since it seems very limiting to have an agent that is a buffstick//docw/rifle.

Oh there's a very easy explanation as to why Agents are in Mimic Doc most of the time: no viable alternatives.

Sure, taking away CH would put Mimic Doc on par with a bunch of other Mimics.. but not "on par" in a good way. Most of us would just delete our Agents if that happened because we'd be TRULY worthless.

The right way to do it is giving love to the other Mimics until they are viable. There have been countless ideas to do that, and it's exactly what the devs are going to do.

Btw - if you really think Agents right now are just "a doc with a rifle" you're even more clueless than I thought.. that is just so wrong it's not even funny anymore. Even with the limited Mimic support we have right now Agents are capable of partially replacing several other professions in raids. One of the most amusing things to do is going Mimic Enf and tanking Pande or APF.

I was talking post balance and not now. Removing CH form agents now would be crippling. After it may not be so.

Crippling or not Mimic Doc should still be viable post-balance. Either we get access to some SL heals or CH stays. But Mimic Doc without proper heals is obviously not Mimicing a Doc. Like Mimic Engineer without pets is not Mimicing an Engineer.

--The argument against rage is mute as it is changing to remove runspeed and has a cooldown.

Tranq is going to be 15s duration. And I doubt that the devs will allow any prof to kite another indefinitely. All you need is getting in range one time to get a stun off, and it's done for the Agent.

--You will be the only profession with viable short recharge AS capabilities post balance according to the developers thus far.

I doubt that the devs are going to hold on to the horrible AS changes as they are planned right now. It would make using it straight-up impossible - come on, 3s casttime, def check, and interruptable by melee hits? That's just too much of a nerf.

--Perks are cool. for a full 220/70/30 enfo shouldn't be an issue. Pre... "that" we are talking about pretty special setups to combat an agent. Where an agent doesn't really need any special setup to CH or UBT or AS iirc.

Thanks for your input professional.

An Agent does need a *very* special setup to survive an enf's alpha though. Which is what we were talking about, but hey, nice try.

Sounds like you know tons about the Agent profession as a whole. I can't imagine why anyone might respond to your posts in a hostile way, especially the Agent professional who perhaps cares about the vast misrepresentation of Agents by most people on forums...

You forgot the [sarcasm] tags.

[fortorn]

So we are going to not to talk about alternatives? Only attack OP because he isn't an agent.

And if you truly thought I was trolling then why respond at all, and in such a way as do you and your position a disservice by attacking the OP so.... viciously.

I wanted to start a thread in the balance forums about agents. I wanted to point a finger at the FP doc issue being an agents only viable route. I did so.

I also asked for feedback and yet again you provide very little.

AND AGAIN I WILL SAY - I'm not an agent player. I bear witness to what agents do when I play with them. The vast majority of them are docs with rifles.

[fortorn]

You were an obvious troll in the first post. Trolls shouldn't be surprised when they don't get "nice" answers.

1. I'm not a troll. I asked for opinions and alternatives in an open thread in rebalance forum.
2. Why not at least be civil. Leave flaming to those that don't represent your profession. have some dignity.

Did I hit a nerve?

Only because you shame professionals with your actions.

Oh there's a very easy explanation as to why Agents are in Mimic Doc most of the time: no viable alternatives.

Kind of my point.

Sure, taking away CH would put Mimic Doc on par with a bunch of other Mimics.. but not "on par" in a good way. Most of us would just delete our Agents if that happened because we'd be TRULY worthless.

Haven't seen agent document yet so how knows. FP is a unique kind of thing and with balancing its going to take to to get it right.

The right way to do it is giving love to the other Mimics until they are viable. There have been countless ideas to do that, and it's exactly what the devs are going to do.

Good to hear.

Btw - if you really think Agents right now are just "a doc with a rifle" you're even more clueless than I thought.. that is just so wrong it's not even funny anymore. Even with the limited Mimic support we have right now Agents are capable of partially replacing several other professions in raids. One of the most amusing things to do is going Mimic Enf and tanking Pande or APF.

I would not raid zerg raid with an agent in FP enforcer. The laughter alone would distract me. Partially is good. An agent should never be better than other profs at their job.

Crippling or not Mimic Doc should still be viable post-balance. Either we get access to some SL heals or CH stays. But Mimic Doc without proper heals is obviously not Mimicing a Doc. Like Mimic Engineer without pets is not Mimicing an Engineer.

CH is obviously meant as a raid scenario heal. I would be quite comfortable in CH going away entirely, or being put on a cooldown like so many other OP spammable nanos like rage. If it goes away I'd like to see a wider array of heals that match the lvl and player which is likely to occur based on what the devs have released thusfar.

Tranq is going to be 15s duration. And I doubt that the devs will allow any prof to kite another indefinitely. All you need is getting in range one time to get a stun off, and it's done for the Agent.

And all you have to do is run and shoot. Range still has advantage and CC will mean something again after balance, especially versus the "mighty" enforcer with rage getting triple nerfed.

I doubt that the devs are going to hold on to the horrible AS changes as they are planned right now. It would make using it straight-up impossible - come on, 3s casttime, def check, and interruptable by melee hits? That's just too much of a nerf.

They better. Should an "aimed shot" not take a moment to aim. AS is OP anyway. The interrupt I don't like, the def check I do. Most PvP is offense anyway so only high def classes will be effected positively be the change.

An Agent does need a *very* special setup to survive an enf's alpha though. Which is what we were talking about, but hey, nice try.

Oh the dreaded enforcer alpha. 60s till you can land it again (or more) or dead or ubt'd and debuffed to hell and back. I don't buy it. Enforcer dominate because of rage. Rage is getting a huge nerf. Don't try and defend your tools that combat rage and try and keep them when rage is being destroyed.

[Lupusceleri]

1. I'm not a troll. I asked for opinions and alternatives in an open thread in rebalance forum.
2. Why not at least be civil. Leave flaming to those that don't represent your profession. have some dignity.

Your post was a textbook example of flamebait.

Only because you shame professionals with your actions.

There's a difference between "professional posts" and "regular Lupus posts". We're allowed to have our opinions too.

I would not raid zerg raid with an agent in FP enforcer. The laughter alone would distract me. Partially is good. An agent should never be better than other profs at their job.

Actually the first time I tanked Pande, pre-instancing with Phatznet, most raiders only noticed I was an Agent when we hit the second island and I told them I had to refresh my Mimic... they were surprised because we had a giant swarm of mobs at TNH and the docs still managed to keep me alive.

You don't *have* to be Mimic Doc all the time, and there are plenty other Mimics you can use in raids.

CH is obviously meant as a raid scenario heal. I would be quite comfortable in CH going away entirely, or being put on a cooldown like so many other OP spammable nanos like rage. If it goes away I'd like to see a wider array of heals that match the lvl and player which is likely to occur based on what the devs have released thusfar.

Improved Complete Healing fills in that role. It is indeed on a cooldown.

CH, however, is not overpowered. In fact the state it is in right now: underpowered.

And all you have to do is run and shoot. Range still has advantage and CC will mean something again after balance, especially versus the "mighty" enforcer with rage getting triple nerfed.

Can't stay ahead of the guy forever.

They better. Should an "aimed shot" not take a moment to aim. AS is OP anyway. The interrupt I don't like, the def check I do. Most PvP is offense anyway so only high def classes will be effected positively be the change.

Not a single special is 3s casting time that you apparently have to stand still for. I don't see why AS should get an exception, if you don't look at the name.

Oh the dreaded enforcer alpha. 60s till you can land it again (or more) or dead or ubt'd and debuffed to hell and back. I don't buy it. Enforcer dominate because of rage. Rage is getting a huge nerf. Don't try and defend your tools that combat rage and try and keep them when rage is being destroyed.

You may still have to figure out how to alpha, but let me assure you that it's very deadly. I fear Enfs more than any other alphaing profession, including Shades/Soldiers/Engineers.

[agentwolve]

lupus stop teaching other people how to play their class, they don't want knowledge of how to play or improve, they want other people nerfed so they don't need any reason to improve, unless he's trolling, which he is refusing to admit to.

[Siyra]

Oh look another: "I died to an Agent, quick nerf them because they can kill me!" thread.

[fortorn]

i guess these agents aren't about sharing their views on their profession, only how it compares to others.

Anyway disregard thread. No one wants to talk about alternatives.

[Ebondevil]

Honestly I think this whole thread is rather premature, not only does it touch a raw nerve with a lot of Agents, mostly because people are crying out for Agents to loose CH all the time, but it's very hard to second guess how mimic Doc is going to play out when we haven't even seen the doctor changes yet.

As for the original post, I personally support Agents getting increased access to nanos, not reduced access. Agents should maintain access to CH purely because it allows them to more accurately fulfil the role of a Doctor if needed, it is considerably weaker than anything a doctor will be throwing around, and while a doctor won't have as much PvP damage they're a lot harder to kill for most professions than an agent is. Agents need to get increased Versatility, not to get pigeon-holed into any specific limited viewpoint.

To sum up: I believe that the Doctor heals and the entire Doctor Nano documents, and indeed the rest of the missing documents, need to be available before there can really be any constructive discussion about what nanos Agents should or should not be able to utilise.

[sultryvoltron]

\

So we are going to not to talk about alternatives? Only attack OP because he isn't an agent.

And if you truly thought I was trolling then why respond at all, and in such a way as do you and your position a disservice by attacking the OP so.... viciously.

I wanted to start a thread in the balance forums about agents. I wanted to point a finger at the FP doc issue being an agents only viable route. I did so.

I also asked for feedback and yet again you provide very little.

AND AGAIN I WILL SAY - I'm not an agent player. I bear witness to what agents do when I play with them. The vast majority of them are docs with rifles.

You're not talking alternatives. You opened your thread up with "Remove Agents only effective defense they are forced to use, like it or not."

Also, there's really no feedback to give. FC is going to do ... something that none of us understand with Agents. One thing you can be sure, if they do their job like they have said they will, Agent will be a completely different class than what it is today. I don't even know what we can talk about until we see the nano document from FC. It's like shooting blindly into the dark.

For example, take a look at 4h durations on most new nanos. That means True Profession will allow you to buff as many buffs as you can possibly fit in your NCU. Is that going to stay how it is currently implemented? I'm guessing not.

Finally, Agents use Mimic: Doc because it is simply the clear-cut best FP. Nothing comes close in terms of survivability. I often run Mimic: Trader to hit MBS on my bow setup, but that can only be done when I have a reliable tank. If I need to not die, I'm using Mimic: Doc.

[Sromp]

Edit: Bump for Ebon.

I could post some 220 calcs for professions I don't have too.

That's a rather presumptuous implication.

[sultryvoltron]

That's a rather presumptuous implication.

You suck at PvP Srompu. Everyone knows it.

[Ninjaloot]

Honestly I think this whole thread is rather premature, not only does it touch a raw nerve with a lot of Agents, mostly because people are crying out for Agents to loose CH all the time, but it's very hard to second guess how mimic Doc is going to play out when we haven't even seen the doctor changes yet.

As for the original post, I personally support Agents getting increased access to nanos, not reduced access. Agents should maintain access to CH purely because it allows them to more accurately fulfil the role of a Doctor if needed, it is considerably weaker than anything a doctor will be throwing around, and while a doctor won't have as much PvP damage they're a lot harder to kill for most professions than an agent is. Agents need to get increased Versatility, not to get pigeon-holed into any specific limited viewpoint.

To sum up: I believe that the Doctor heals and the entire Doctor Nano documents, and indeed the rest of the missing documents, need to be available before there can really be any constructive discussion about what nanos Agents should or should not be able to utilise.

This pretty much sums up everything.

Someone close this mess of a thread.

[Cyberleet]

You were an obvious troll in the first post. Trolls shouldn't be surprised when they don't get "nice" answers.

And who are you to say that? Pretty much a personal attack you launch there. He has great a perfectly valid point.

lupus stop teaching other people how to play their class,

Forget about trying to talk with any of the "professionals". They are obviously just defending their own builds/playstyles and advocates for popular opinion. Think it's unprofessional.

Lots of case-in-points on the forums.

I wouldn't mind CH being removed as it does nothing but harm the class, but it's other options

[Cyberleet]

1. I would be quite comfortable in CH going away entirely, or being put on a cooldown like so many other OP spammable nanos like rage.

Wouldn't mind either if sureshot, consentration and escape-nanos gets a revamp and outperforms CH.

And debuffs that matters for the short duration they last. UBT is like ten times better than The Shot in init debuff.

One of the most amusing things to do is going Mimic Enf and tanking Pande or APF.

Can just get a regular enfo to do it. Some wanna play the actual agent too you know.

Not that the versatillity isn't great. <3 calm-ability, meep, extra ar-buffs, morphs for sl-traveling etc.

Mimic Engineer without pets is not Mimicing an Engineer.

Is just visual tho, it's still big diferences between agent and the profession we pretend to appear like.

Have a agent/spy/assassin IRL do heart-surgery on you? I think not...bad idea. Altho it should give bonuses.

Only because you shame professionals with your actions.

tru dat, improve please...no offense.

AS is OP anyway.

Not! It's exactly what it should be and perfect in the agent hands. Agent always have some way of providing damage, in concept. Other profession must work a little harder to do that damage while it's easy for agents.

Without stealth and the high as at lower levels, soloing would be almost impossible. Thank god for unbreakable snares!

Heals are just as powerfull and without fumble-chance, as is SWS. Profession-thing.

Def-check would be entirely OOC and imbalanced. IE, forced to even more CH...

That agent can provide reliable and considerable dd, also on def-clases is a good thing, and a needed one aswell.

Agents should maintain access to CH purely because it allows them to more accurately fulfil the role of a Doctor if needed,

And exactly why should we fulfil the role of another profession?

We have plenty challenge fulfilling our own role, until then there is no point in the FP-stuff or making obvious flamebait-posts about it. It's nanos that no one uses anyway... beside FP doc.

You're not talking alternatives. You opened your thread up with "Remove Agents only effective defense they are forced to use, like it or not."

Thats is ridiculous, we got plenty of other stuff. TMS, NS..Reduce Inertia. Oh, is ineffective like other profession-unique tools? Well, we don't need it until escape nanos are fixed. Then we can talk about clinging on to CH.

For example, take a look at 4h durations on most new nanos. That means True Profession will allow you to buff as many buffs as you can possibly fit in your NCU. Is that going to stay how it is currently implemented? I'm guessing not.

Why not?

The only diference is that other professions must get it from others while we have acces by our own.

Altho, it should have some restrictions. Who would be fooled thinking you are a real doc with a rifle out doing signficant harm to others or other undercover-stuff?

Trader to hit MBS on my bow setup, but that can only be done when I have a reliable tank.

What!

Agent got issues with agg? A good Agent should NEVER get agg or be struck much in combat, just hit a detaunt/CC.

Oh, wait...

If I need to not die, I'm using Mimic: Doc.

But we don't need it. We have detaunts for team-scenarios.

Then snareperks and escapal-tools for soloing, altho FP-benefits comes in handy here it shouldn't determine the outcome. We're not like shades that has is buildt for more lasting battles, we basicly kill our targets in quick sucession using stealth.

[Lupusceleri]

Forget about trying to talk with any of the "professionals". They are obviously just defending their own builds/playstyles and advocates for popular opinion. Think it's unprofessional.

Trying to make it look like someone said something which they actually didn't say is great, isn't it?

I've actually made several posts which were pretty clear about my feelings on having the other Mimics viable.

But then again you are infamous for your inability to have a normal discussion (or inability to read), which is why I have taken to ignoring 99% of your posts.. easier for the both of us.

[Aimzor]

Forget about trying to talk with any of the "professionals". They are obviously just defending their own builds/playstyles and advocates for popular opinion.

Personally I think there is a nice balance in the Agent professional's builds/playstyles. Agents have one PvP and one PvM style agent professional, there aren't more flavours are there? However this isn't the discussion of this thread.

He has great a perfectly valid point.

No, he has not. Mainly because we are arguing about a tool (CH) that in "some's" opinion is OP in PvP and a welcome tool when in PvM. The fact is FC won't change that till the balance and non of us know when the first draft of the Agent document will be available. If according to the balance document the tool (CH) still is OP, sure make your thread and complain all you (people in general) like, since than FC didn't do it's job in making other FP tools viable enough.

i guess these agents aren't about sharing their views on their profession, only how it compares to others.

Anyway disregard thread. No one wants to talk about alternatives.

If you read more on the forum many agents will say (not in this thread however, since this is thread 1000 about agents and CH ) that FP Doc/CH is one or the only tool that makes playing an Agent the most viable when in endgame PvP (however FP Enf or Trader is fun too). FC should have noticed it by know, one way or the other. What it will become depends on the other rebalance documents and last the agent document.

Pro: You (Enf) like it when the doc's have a hard time or even die.
Con: Our (agents) most used main defence in line of battle. (it's abit borring but effective)


Till rebalance, any thread about CH and agents, will make it just another boehoe thread number 1000 and 1.

[Cyberleet]

I have taken to ignoring 99% of your posts..

You're not supposed to ignore feedback regarding the agent-profession from anyone. Almost like you're the assaultdoctor professional...

No, he has not.

He has. 1 (one) FP'able nano shouldn't make/break the profession. And this is advocated for?

<<< not impressed.

[Kazeran]

And who are you to say that? Pretty much a personal attack you launch there. He has great a perfectly valid point.

Forget about trying to talk with any of the "professionals". They are obviously just defending their own builds/playstyles and advocates for popular opinion. Think it's unprofessional.

You're not supposed to ignore feedback regarding the agent-profession from anyone. Almost like you're the assaultdoctor professional...

There is 3 personal attacks from yourself in just 2 posts, I'll let you think about what that means you are. Just because lupus is a prof does not mean is not allowed to state is personal opinion. He, just as the rest of us, is just a player. The only difference is he has more responsibly. The rest of us have one as well, its to treat all the proffs like a player because they are one to. This you are not doing however.

As far as Forton having a valid point:

Title says it all. Remove the ability for Agents to cast CH.

Agents have evades, CC and unending levels of DMG. CH is far too OP. I know there is a great deal of opinions on this matter and I would like to hear the pros and cons to my suggestion.

Any takers?

Title being: Remove CH form Agent Shadow/Mimic Line

His OP is has a pretty hostile feeling to it, do you disagree? Its telling us to remove one of the only viable, if not the only, ways for agents to survive while stating its OP because of "evades, CC, and unending levels of damage". While all are true to a degree he provided no #'s no support and no scenarios where he is proving CH is OP for agents.

This thread could have been a very constuctive thread about the depends agents have on CH, however because it was worded the way it was it just turned into a troll thread.

Sorry to pick apart your post Forton but you just have to learn how to word posts better so its coming from a more neutral aspect instead of a "nerf them!!!" aspect.