Timeline of PVP in AO

[Micromgmt]

Why give so many that is not a true stealthclass Aimed Shot?

Imo, it's sloppy game-developement. On AS I think it's a great mechanic that is suitable for certain classes, like agent, that is kinda like pure death coming at you unless you kill it before it kills you.

The whole point with diferent classess is that some things comes easier.

If you stand 2 meters to an enfo, then the enfo has the upper hand etc...or else we end up with 1 class and the combat reduced to maths/passive fighting.

The problem isn't AS at all, the problem stems from the way Funcom has handled defenses in AO for the longest time. The rampant abuse of AS is a symptom of that. The issue originates from the gameplay decisions that Funcom has made, basically:

1. Perk attacks have a long cooldown.
2. Burst damage is required to kill a majority of classes, and required to kill all classes in a mass PvP situation where docs are involved.
3. Evades vs Perks makes a situation where defense is either on or off, there's no middle ground when it comes to perking a target.

When you combine the three of these, you get a situation where a lot of classes need their perks to land to finish a target off before the target can heal/mitigate damage. However, as more than half of the classes in the game focus on evasion you end up with players who have 0 chance at endgame to be able to perk some classes. These lower AR professions/players then start thinking “What can I do to give me a better chance against these players I cannot perk?” They come to a similar conclusion as the rest of the playerbase, and have a few choices as to how they wish to combat evades.
The first choice, considering a majority of classes in this game have access to some form of ranged weaponry is of course, Aimed Shot. AS has the added benefit of being able to also assist in bursting down higher-hp classes that were already perkable, making it an even better choice. The next choice is MR, only available to the Atrox breed, it isn’t quite as wide spread as use of AS, and it only has major benefits against targets that you couldn’t perk before. It’s a popular choice for perk based professions like shade, since so much of their damage can come from perks and MR allows them to land these on defensive 220s even as low a level 207.
What Funcom is doing post rebalance to AS isn’t going to solve the problem; it’s simply going to make the solution less effective. Players are always going to look for the best possible setup that gives them the best chance to defeat the largest percentage of other professions in PvP. If no alternatives to AS pop up then it will simply become a case of support/ranged professions rooting/stunning high evade melee players before using AS on them. Even against professions that didn’t have evades before the most it will do is make AS an opener, and then if you’re a high HP profession like enfo they’ll probably still use it, even with the 3s cast time simply because it can 30% cap, because it is still better overall damage than they’d get by just DPSing you regularly.
The true solution to this whole AS issue is a lot more complicated than “slap a 3s wind up time on it and give agents burst as compensation.” The only way you’re going to coax people away from AS weapons is by giving them a viable alternative in the form of another attack, or perks that actually do something against evade professions.


Post is pretty messy but I'll edit it to be readable later, out of time to post for now.

[Waahash]

The problem isn't AS at all, the problem stems from the way Funcom has handled defenses in AO for the longest time. The rampant abuse of AS is a symptom of that. The issue originates from the gameplay decisions that Funcom has made, basically:

1. Perk attacks have a long cooldown.
2. Burst damage is required to kill a majority of classes, and required to kill all classes in a mass PvP situation where docs are involved.
3. Evades vs Perks makes a situation where defense is either on or off, there's no middle ground when it comes to perking a target.

When you combine the three of these, you get a situation where a lot of classes need their perks to land to finish a target off before the target can heal/mitigate damage. However, as more than half of the classes in the game focus on evasion you end up with players who have 0 chance at endgame to be able to perk some classes. These lower AR professions/players then start thinking “What can I do to give me a better chance against these players I cannot perk?” They come to a similar conclusion as the rest of the playerbase, and have a few choices as to how they wish to combat evades.
The first choice, considering a majority of classes in this game have access to some form of ranged weaponry is of course, Aimed Shot. AS has the added benefit of being able to also assist in bursting down higher-hp classes that were already perkable, making it an even better choice. The next choice is MR, only available to the Atrox breed, it isn’t quite as wide spread as use of AS, and it only has major benefits against targets that you couldn’t perk before. It’s a popular choice for perk based professions like shade, since so much of their damage can come from perks and MR allows them to land these on defensive 220s even as low a level 207.
What Funcom is doing post rebalance to AS isn’t going to solve the problem; it’s simply going to make the solution less effective. Players are always going to look for the best possible setup that gives them the best chance to defeat the largest percentage of other professions in PvP. If no alternatives to AS pop up then it will simply become a case of support/ranged professions rooting/stunning high evade melee players before using AS on them. Even against professions that didn’t have evades before the most it will do is make AS an opener, and then if you’re a high HP profession like enfo they’ll probably still use it, even with the 3s cast time simply because it can 30% cap, because it is still better overall damage than they’d get by just DPSing you regularly.
The true solution to this whole AS issue is a lot more complicated than “slap a 3s wind up time on it and give agents burst as compensation.” The only way you’re going to coax people away from AS weapons is by giving them a viable alternative in the form of another attack, or perks that actually do something against evade professions.


Post is pretty messy but I'll edit it to be readable later, out of time to post for now.

And this, IMO, is the main problem with AO's playerbase. The need to be able to solo kill when your profession is geared towards supporting rather than the profession being suited to be offensive. Means and crew said they are attempting to reconstruct pvp mechanics and profession toolsets to be team based, meaning that the whole want/need to be able to solo everything as any other profession doesn't fit with what the developers want exactly.

And, a viable alternative to AS might as well just be AS as it is today without the need for lengthy nano documents and developer commentary on mechanic changes. Dead is dead, right?

Perks that do something versus evade professions already exist (though poorly implemented due to AAD checks on them), and they're getting improved with the AAD removal on the defense checks of NR checking perks. AS is getting changed fairly harshly, but it was stated that it might be given even more possible maximum damage in compensation for the 3 second cast time, making it a seriously big threat if someone has it up along with the means to keep a melee at bay for the time necessary to pop it (means being a team to hold melee characters at bay or the ability to stay alive/stay in range if they are trying to Aimed Shot a ranged target)

As far as I see it, nobody is trying to coax anyone away from AS as much as they are putting you in the position of having a team to pvp (as per the stated goals) in order to use it to its most effective. Making AS less enticing to own if you want to solo if you aren't a CC'er profession would be the way to do that, and that's, IMO, part of the motive behind the nerfs (hence, putting a proper team together to use your toolset to a more advantageous amount). A powerful special that would take more than spamming the O button to make full use of. Agents being exempted from this due to their secondary special AND the instant cast if the user is fully concealed, with agents being the best concealers, but once out of sneak they need a proper means to use AS again since it would then have execution time once they were out of sneak.

[Micromgmt]

The issue doesn't just go away because the dev's want PvP to be team based however. As long as the /duel function exists ingame people are going to want some form of balance in 1v1. The only true way to force the game into team PvP (which itself isn't the greatest of ideas considering the smaller number of players we have today as opposed to years ago) is to make sure that no one class can kill any one of the other classes in a one on one. People are always going to gravitate towards a setup with the best chance of survival/offense solo, minus the few people who know they'll have a guaranteed team every time they want to PvP.

Also, the changes to AS aren't going to do anything to players but make them whine, honestly. PvP post rebalance, especially in team situations, is simply going to boil down to "Well none of us can ever perk that fixer, guess we should all just press Q/hit SA/AS/Dimach or call in that one NT to kill him in two nukes. Like I said previously, that doesn't solve the problem, it only makes the solution worse.

To be quite honest I'm afraid of team PvP with AS post rebalance if anyone were to ever actually focus on coordination. If post-rebalance AS gets a damage increase to go along with the 3s cast time PvP can turn into a situation where you have all of your AS users in a vent together, call out a target, everyone press O and hope he doesn't have blockers, or if you have more than 8-9 AS users blockers wont even matter. Congrats one person has now been instantly dropped, Q on someone for 11s while we wait for the next kill.

This is just as viable now even, but no-one ever gets a big enough group of people together who care enough to coordinate.

[Waahash]

The issue doesn't just go away because the dev's want PvP to be team based however. As long as the /duel function exists ingame people are going to want some form of balance in 1v1.

No doubt. FC can't program people to accept what their vision of the game is. And /duel can't be balanced, and it won't be. If the function exists after the changes, and people still think that it's going to work the same way as before, that is their problem. People watching what has been said so far are going to know that 1v1 isn't going to be "fair." People not watching what's going on is also their own problem.

The only true way to force the game into team PvP (which itself isn't the greatest of ideas considering the smaller number of players we have today as opposed to years ago) is to make sure that no one class can kill any one of the other classes in a one on one.

Or to make sure that rock, paper, scissors exists. Which is what this is looking like.

People are always going to gravitate towards a setup with the best chance of survival/offense solo, minus the few people who know they'll have a guaranteed team every time they want to PvP.

No doubt. That mentality can't be changed, so FC is changing at the very least the AS mechanic to be harder to use, and you can't combine it with SA or full auto swaps. People are of course going to go with the best setups they can muster, and if it works, expect the new FOTMs. The rebalance, according to intention, is going to change until FC gets what they want out of it.

Also, the changes to AS aren't going to do anything to players but make them whine, honestly.

As compared to the bliss these forums are?

PvP post rebalance, especially in team situations, is simply going to boil down to "Well none of us can ever perk that fixer, guess we should all just press Q/hit SA/AS/Dimach or call in that one NT to kill him in two nukes. Like I said previously, that doesn't solve the problem, it only makes the solution worse.

NR checking perks will be more effective versus evaders, and nukers are going to have more offensive nukes. And in that scenario, most anything versus a small team isn't going to survive.

To be quite honest I'm afraid of team PvP with AS post rebalance if anyone were to ever actually focus on coordination. If post-rebalance AS gets a damage increase to go along with the 3s cast time PvP can turn into a situation where you have all of your AS users in a vent together, call out a target, everyone press O and hope he doesn't have blockers, or if you have more than 8-9 AS users blockers wont even matter. Congrats one person has now been instantly dropped, Q on someone for 11s while we wait for the next kill.

And if you build your setups to just team-spam AS, expect an actual team of people to take your group down if all you want to do is monkey on your O button until something is dead.

This is just as viable now even, but no-one ever gets a big enough group of people together who care enough to coordinate.

Not everyday, but it happens.

[Micromgmt]

No doubt. FC can't program people to accept what their vision of the game is. And /duel can't be balanced, and it won't be. If the function exists after the changes, and people still think that it's going to work the same way as before, that is their problem. People watching what has been said so far are going to know that 1v1 isn't going to be "fair." People not watching what's going on is also their own problem.

As much as I'm fine with team based PvP and the death of /duel, the majority of the playerbase is going to have a problem with it; and with the playerbase as small as it is at this point that will be treading on thin ice by FC.

Or to make sure that rock, paper, scissors exists. Which is what this is looking like.

Which will just lead to Paper calling Scissors OP and saying that Rock is fine all over the forums. I understand FC can ignore the whines but they're never gonna end, especially with Rock/Paper/Scissors balance.

No doubt. That mentality can't be changed, so FC is changing at the very least the AS mechanic to be harder to use, and you can't combine it with SA or full auto swaps. People are of course going to go with the best setups they can muster, and if it works, expect the new FOTMs. The rebalance, according to intention, is going to change until FC gets what they want out of it.

Well let's hope that they do get what they want eventually. If they actually get the game to gravitate towards team PvP and they revitalize the playerbase in the game I forsee a very evade dominated endgame however. With a 3s interruptable AS combined with Bureaucrat + Keeper buffing a team's AAD by ~700-800 you'll be able to make even non-evade profs unperkable by most.

As compared to the bliss these forums are?

You can never please everyone, but the changes aren't going to help the situation any.

NR checking perks will be more effective versus evaders, and nukers are going to have more offensive nukes. And in that scenario, most anything versus a small team isn't going to survive.

The NR checking perks and nukes only affect a few classes, and while that's good for nano profs and NT/Crat/Docs (Since they'll have the most nuking post rebalance) it again doesn't solve the problem. The problem in that situation is that just like now, when it comes to killing something with evades the best solution is to simply hit with AS and hope that regs + that eventually kills them. People don't choose AS because it's OP, they choose it because it's their only option vs any class they can't perk.

And if you build your setups to just team-spam AS, expect an actual team of people to take your group down if all you want to do is monkey on your O button until something is dead.

The thing is that you don't have to build just to spam AS. That team could very well be Crat + Pistol Doc + Agent + Trader + Engi + Tigress MP. All of those classes have AS available. The def from Crat auras/buffs and def from Trader buffs, assuming they're all running in a def setup make them nigh unperkable, with the Engi/Doc having the lowest def of the group. The Crat+Trader AR buffing would allow them to perk the majority of other classes, evade or not. They'd have blockers/reflects from Engi against other teams as well as Doc/Trader heals, and Agent heals assuming this is pre-rebalance. That team can slaughter people even while AS is down, and having AS up simply means they pick a target and get a free kill in between.

AS itself may not be the most skill intensive special, but you can make a team that is killer without AS that just so happens to be full of classes that can use AS.

[Waahash]

As much as I'm fine with team based PvP and the death of /duel, the majority of the playerbase is going to have a problem with it; and with the playerbase as small as it is at this point that will be treading on thin ice by FC.

The majority of the playerbase can nitpick all they like, the joke here is that no matter what we want, FC is going to tread on with their vision, not ours, and in all honesty you can be very sure that they are also not going to disregard everything we say. They just have a different want than we do. Means has a job today doing something he presumably likes, and he will want that job tomorrow. Keeping the players happy means changing something they don't like, and with 52 breed/prof combos that means that not everyone is going to be happy. In that reality, Means and Co. are going to go onward with what they've planned to slow down and tone down the pvp in this game. So be it to anyone that dislikes it because it causes their profession some grief versus other classes, and FC more or less says "It's going to be a team pvp game, not solo, deal with it; this is what we want." Customer retention is probably what they're after, and those that whine now will whine then, and probably keep playing anyway.

Which will just lead to Paper calling Scissors OP and saying that Rock is fine all over the forums. I understand FC can ignore the whines but they're never gonna end, especially with Rock/Paper/Scissors balance.

There isn't much difference from now. Except you have Rock calling Scissors fine, calling paper out on their toolset, Paper being quiet, Pen Missile not getting anything because they are completely OP anyway, yada yada. If the whines aren't going to end, and FC sees that, what do you think they're doing wrong? Everything? They can't stop people from whining. Those that wanted triples nerfed and crat debuffs gone and so on and so forth also have to deal with losing somethings that other professions called the whiner professions' out on.

Well let's hope that they do get what they want eventually. If they actually get the game to gravitate towards team PvP and they revitalize the playerbase in the game I forsee a very evade dominated endgame however. With a 3s interruptable AS combined with Bureaucrat + Keeper buffing a team's AAD by ~700-800 you'll be able to make even non-evade profs unperkable by most.

I don't see how a 3s interruptable AS contributes to a character's overall def. If you mean that someone is going to hug a more defensive build and a crat and a keeper, that doesn't stop the other team from bringing more of their own AS power and their own SA power/dimach power/nuker power/NR perking power.

You can never please everyone, but the changes aren't going to help the situation any.

The changes aren't pvp only, and yes they have pvp implications, and yes there will still be whiners. Nothing new. If it makes things worse for some and better for others, you aren't going to stop the cries of those who were on top.

The NR checking perks and nukes only affect a few classes, and while that's good for nano profs and NT/Crat/Docs (Since they'll have the most nuking post rebalance) it again doesn't solve the problem. The problem in that situation is that just like now, when it comes to killing something with evades the best solution is to simply hit with AS and hope that regs + that eventually kills them. People don't choose AS because it's OP, they choose it because it's their only option vs any class they can't perk.

It affects everyone who doesn't have any great shakes for damage mitigation. The new nukes are pure evader hate, which is great, since it means the evaders take more damage until the nukers' nano pools dry up. It also does not mean that you are entitled to perk evaders, since their main form of defense is evades. The NR checking perks that are losing the AAD checks on the defense check is an anti-evader tool, and so are nukes to begin with. If you aren't a nuker or a profession that utilizes NR checking perks, then maybe you are the rock to the evader's paper. The evader is the paper to the nukers' scissor. See how that works? You're still looking at it as "if I was solo."

The thing is that you don't have to build just to spam AS. That team could very well be Crat + Pistol Doc + Agent + Trader + Engi + Tigress MP. All of those classes have AS available. The def from Crat auras/buffs and def from Trader buffs, assuming they're all running in a def setup make them nigh unperkable, with the Engi/Doc having the lowest def of the group. The Crat+Trader AR buffing would allow them to perk the majority of other classes, evade or not. They'd have blockers/reflects from Engi against other teams as well as Doc/Trader heals, and Agent heals assuming this is pre-rebalance. That team can slaughter people even while AS is down, and having AS up simply means they pick a target and get a free kill in between.

So a well built team wins you say. I'm glad you're starting to see the point that FC is trying to push. It's a team killing one at a time? That doesn't fix AS if everyone is using it. That doesn't fix PVP if everyone has to cast their AS. /assist is your issue here, and has been argued against in the past. If everyone uses AS to kill 1 target, that's a dynamic in pvp, and the AS nerfs are in line with the reduction of alpha capability, but also to fix a broken mechanic.

AS itself may not be the most skill intensive special, but you can make a team that is killer without AS that just so happens to be full of classes that can use AS.

Then what was your original point? You said you would like alternatives to AS to let people with low AR kill evaders. They might not have been as strong/present before, but are you starting to see what's happening a little more? Nukes/NR checking perks are going to suck for everyone that doesn't have high NR to begin with.

So you say evades will rule the new pvp playstyles? I'd say it's nanomage anything.

[sultryvoltron]

It's gonna be Bureaucrats. Definitely nanomage Bureaucrats.

[Sromp]

It's gonna be Bureaucrats. Definitely nanomage Bureaucrats.

QFT.

/waves

[Neon_1]

The problem isn't AS at all, the problem stems from the way Funcom has handled defenses in AO for the longest time. The rampant abuse of AS is a symptom of that. The issue originates from the gameplay decisions that Funcom has made, basically:

1. Perk attacks have a long cooldown.
2. Burst damage is required to kill a majority of classes, and required to kill all classes in a mass PvP situation where docs are involved.
3. Evades vs Perks makes a situation where defense is either on or off, there's no middle ground when it comes to perking a target.

When you combine the three of these, you get a situation where a lot of classes need their perks to land to finish a target off before the target can heal/mitigate damage. However, as more than half of the classes in the game focus on evasion you end up with players who have 0 chance at endgame to be able to perk some classes. These lower AR professions/players then start thinking “What can I do to give me a better chance against these players I cannot perk?” They come to a similar conclusion as the rest of the playerbase, and have a few choices as to how they wish to combat evades.
The first choice, considering a majority of classes in this game have access to some form of ranged weaponry is of course, Aimed Shot. AS has the added benefit of being able to also assist in bursting down higher-hp classes that were already perkable, making it an even better choice. The next choice is MR, only available to the Atrox breed, it isn’t quite as wide spread as use of AS, and it only has major benefits against targets that you couldn’t perk before. It’s a popular choice for perk based professions like shade, since so much of their damage can come from perks and MR allows them to land these on defensive 220s even as low a level 207.
What Funcom is doing post rebalance to AS isn’t going to solve the problem; it’s simply going to make the solution less effective. Players are always going to look for the best possible setup that gives them the best chance to defeat the largest percentage of other professions in PvP. If no alternatives to AS pop up then it will simply become a case of support/ranged professions rooting/stunning high evade melee players before using AS on them. Even against professions that didn’t have evades before the most it will do is make AS an opener, and then if you’re a high HP profession like enfo they’ll probably still use it, even with the 3s cast time simply because it can 30% cap, because it is still better overall damage than they’d get by just DPSing you regularly.
The true solution to this whole AS issue is a lot more complicated than “slap a 3s wind up time on it and give agents burst as compensation.” The only way you’re going to coax people away from AS weapons is by giving them a viable alternative in the form of another attack, or perks that actually do something against evade professions.


Post is pretty messy but I'll edit it to be readable later, out of time to post for now.

This is 100% true, and makes balancing AO practically impossible until the mechanics of perking/evading are totally reworked. Im afraid that will never happen though.

I also kinda agree on the part with "Support profs should actually support more and not try to kill all"- comment, but the problem tends to be that in AO, there rarely is any team-pvp. Dont get me wrong, I would actually love more team-pvp, it just doesnt happen. And even if that is encouraged, why would the DD/OP-profs bother teaming with those purely support toons if they can just run around and wreak havoc just by themselves (and killing those same support toons on opposite side too...) ? So altough it is a nice idea, it doesnt work in practical life of AO. You should have a real chance to kill opposite player in pvp (..yeah yeah, equal skills/gear ofc..) with every profession combo. Of course some profs should be in your favour, and some against you, but still you should have a chance. Thats what I call the "real balance". Not like now, when facing a certain prof(s) you basically need to always run away since you cant kill them in any way, even if the enemy didnt fight back or sits down (lol).

[McKnuckleSamwich]

The reason the evade perk balance is so screwed up is because FC gave up on AC holes.

If you had AC holes still active, there would still be a method to mitigate and or increase your damage against certain setups, without having huge damage weapons.

The hole that FC is in is due to eliminating 2/3's of the combat sequence. Once the AC's were gone, and all weapons had huge min damage, FC needed some way to let squishier (evade) profs mitigate more damage. The way to do that (obviously?) was to make perks work on a boolean code: hit/miss - no in between.

In this way, evaders could still retain some survival, even when faced with much higher damage coming from super high min damage weapons all the time.

[Prevention]

You both need a chill pill. Play nice.

[quieter456]

The reason the evade perk balance is so screwed up is because FC gave up on AC holes.

My previous reply was deleted, but you are still wrong, because perks do not check player ACs at all and high min damage weapons were added for PVM reasons not to remove the usefulness of ACs on pvp.

Also to think someone is going to swap a piece of combined or HP armor or anything for a piece of armor that has higher ACs of a certain type is laughable. You would have to swap an entire set to get an amount of AC that would matter and would lose hundreds of points of attack rating or thousands of HP. Besides which only two damage types are heavily used these days.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

crap. mine was removed too.

But, I originally stated that perks don't check AC's. So, now you're saying what I was saying before the posts were removed. So, yes.

And, I agree, no-one is goign to swap Combined armour to get a piece that covers an AC hole, BUT, the corollary point is that you could optimize your damage if you utilized your opponents AC hole.

Thats the point I'm trying to make.

[sultryvoltron]

crap. mine was removed too.

But, I originally stated that perks don't check AC's. So, now you're saying what I was saying before the posts were removed. So, yes.

And, I agree, no-one is goign to swap Combined armour to get a piece that covers an AC hole, BUT, the corollary point is that you could optimize your damage if you utilized your opponents AC hole.

Thats the point I'm trying to make.

Combined Armor should be removed from the game.

That is all.

[Cyberleet]

Agents being exempted from this due to their secondary special AND the instant cast if the user is fully concealed, with agents being the best concealers, but once out of sneak they need a proper means to use AS again since it would then have execution time once they were out of sneak.

That compromizes stealth, suprise-element and speed.

As for now, most agents wait with aimed shot until some important perks land.