Can we get the reasoning behind Changes

[Anarchic1]

All I see on the forums from the devs is that we're changing this and this and this. Can we get your reasoning behind the changes and what you believe would happen by changing XXX and how it would impacts professions that rely on XXX and so on.

It's not enough to state a change and allow us to debate on it without letting us get an idea what's going on in your head.

[SoapTarder]

until the changes are put to the test and proven, every change done here on the forum is a rag-time song and dance. why a beta server (ie rk3) wasnt put up to test changes and adjust them with real numbers makes no sense to me. yeah, it may still happen (in fact it has to at some point, or put on test), but adjustments are already being made without any numbers to justify the changes, further delaying whats left to be finished (besides real numbers of how ao works currently, which as kintaii roughly said awhile back, that current ao numbers and mechanics are pointless to use as a comparison base to the new changes being proposed).

but bump for a better explanation for the changes. without any, some players are assuming that the devs are winging it and seeing how the forum trolls players react.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

220 levels, 70 researches, 30 AI dings, 14 profs, 3 breeds.

220*0.2 (PVP limit up and down in level)*70*30*14*3)^2 = 1.5e13 different combinations of prof/research/AI level/breed/prof.

Thats not including ANYTHING to do with armour choices.

To the OP: Do you really think FC is going to balance according to:

"Well, a level 192 NT wearing a level 150 peregrine can get 1400 AR, and will probably need more AR vs level 154 agents using a QL 175 Ithaca with three pieces of AI armour and half his research done and RI running."

About the most detailed you'll ever get is BROAD approximations and possible methods of adjustment on overall survivability and offensive prowess.

[Gunfytr]

Im going to agree with that. ^^

[Lazy]

"Well, a level 192 NT wearing a level 150 peregrine can get 1400 AR, and will probably need more AR vs level 154 agents using a QL 175 Ithaca with three pieces of AI armour and half his research done and RI running."

i thought that was EXACTLY how they were balancing it o-o

[erozc]

220 levels, 70 researches, 30 AI dings, 14 profs, 3 breeds.

So the idea still remains today that nanogimp is auto-fail and not even included in basic calculations.

[Amickson]

So the idea still remains today that nanogimp is auto-fail and not even included in basic calculations.

Ahh that's the thing FC want to change, in future there will be 95% nanomages due extreme nanocost of all nanos in balance documentation. The rest 5% will be troxes build around mongo rage as ganking machines.

[Marshalart]

Ahh that's the thing FC want to change, in future there will be 95% nanomages due extreme nanocost of all nanos in balance documentation. The rest 5% will be troxes build around mongo rage as ganking machines.

Bump!
ALthough, would prefer 95% trox. Nanomage just doesn't quite fill out beast gear quite like a trox does.

[Flipyap]

220*0.2 (PVP limit up and down in level)*70*30*14*3)^2 = 1.5e13 different combinations of prof/research/AI level/breed/prof.

I'm not the best at math, but isn't there one flaw in this?

I mean, a lvl 1 can't have 30 AI lvls and 70 research...

[Ciex]

Can we get your reasoning behind the changes

Sure you can. It was thought to keep you excited so you can continue trolling forums, playing and paying and once it hits life it may even attract people who already quit. Rebalancing is poor mans expansion; something new and exciting with almost no need to work on it. No new playfields, no quests, no engine upgrades. Just changed numbers and a new icon here and there (aren’t they made by players anyway nowadays?). In my country we have effects like this with cheap wine; a big fuddle for almost no money spend.

[Structure]

I for one think it would be nice to get a general objective for the change, nothing too detailed as obviously the numbers are yet to be figured out, but at least something.

Most nano documents I avoid reading now, because all it is is someone saying 'Here's some changes', and then the forum is left to speculate wildly and ineffectually about what the point of the changes are, or why they feel they need to be changed. No real answers are given, and a lot of the time the accepted reasoning behind the ones released so far is just a guess from someone on the forums. There seems to be little point releasing a bunch of numbers to the public without context, except if it is a 'whetting the appetite' for rebalance kind of deal, in which case I believe it has the opposite effect on people. Many I have talked to worry about what the changes mean for their character and whether they will enjoy the new playstyles offered, or whether it will be like learning an entire new game (which if people wanted to do, they would have already).

I think a fairly generalised sort of "we want to move toward this sort of playstyle for X profession" or "we feel this is overpowered in X and this is why it is being changed" would offer infinitely more constructive feedback than the cluster**** that happens now when people start talking about the rebalance.

[Mostadio]

Some professions (fixer, MP) have been begging for FC to actually define what their rolls are supposed to be since launch.

[Waahash]

I'm not the best at math, but isn't there one flaw in this?

I mean, a lvl 1 can't have 30 AI lvls and 70 research...

Not to mention the total omission of the 4th breed. It is clearly Opifex.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

Not to mention the total omission of the 4th breed. It is clearly Opifex.

QFT.

I'm not the best at math, but isn't there one flaw in this?

I mean, a lvl 1 can't have 30 AI lvls and 70 research...

this is true, however, I only did the basic calculation to indicate the approximate number of permutations based on breed/profession. Doing this whole calculation would be seriously annoying, as you might know, if you're sharp enough to pick up that the math is wrong.

The idea is generally, that there are a shytton of permutations, and theres no way to calc all of them easily, but, thats only the base char abilitys, not to mention the what 90 different skills, to boot, then ad in all the permutations of buffs, auras, and OSBable buffs, THEN add in team mates, and all possible encounters, your teammate's Debuffs, perk debuffs, your own debuffs, and the encounter's own buffs, then, add in armour, weapons, etc.. I'll tell you right now, that, the full number of permutations which COULD be possible, is close enough to infinity that for all intents and purposes, it IS infinite.

So the idea still remains today that nanogimp is auto-fail and not even included in basic calculations.

ahem. Fully apologize. I missed nanogimps.

[-yeny-]

there is no need to balance every prof with every lvl with every breed. just balance the main lvls or the title levels and scale all nanos and stuff between em. same with breeds. pick solitus, balance for it. all other breeds will have to live with advantages and disadvantages same as it was intended years ago.

that would come down to breeds*title lvls + adding scaled nanos/stats/... for the lvls between. research should be just a fine adjustment in the end.

[Lliers]

Getting back to the original topic. It seems to me that the re-balancing will be primarily accomplished through revamping nanos and perks. I've been trying to read the nano docs to understand the changes and what they attempt to address, but I'm not getting my light bulb moment for most professions. Could someone provide us with a big picture summary? Reids had posted a summary of professions, but it was just discussions of the professionals. I was thinking of something like:

Proffesion: main problem(s)
* changes in 5 or fewer bullet points

something like:

Advys: Good at everything, great at nothing
* Making morphs more differentiated.
* Nerfing heals so that if someone wanted to be a top healer, they should chose Doc as profession

Traders: Drains are too crippling for too long
* drain transfer will last longer, drain effect time significantly nerfed

Now, I understand that the two examples above are probably incorrect, but that's why I'm asking for some clarity. Thanks.

[Omutb]

how it would impacts professions that rely on XXX and so on.

Im not sure that is valid, because I, personally, dont believe the intention is that players adapt, its that players relearn from scratch.

It's not enough to state a change and allow us to debate on it without letting us get an idea what's going on in your head.

Agreed, it is very hard to formulate any sort of theory as how its all going to work without an understanding of the full intentions and extent of all the changes.

[Pomidor]

As many know, at top lvl game is rock/scissors/paper - killing anything is either perfectly timed alpha or lose, or duel limitless (like last duel I saw, 220 adv's, took around 2hrs...) So balance, I hope, will focus on ROLE of each characters. Currently most have big chnaces of soloing everything, die in pvp due lack of heals (thus, no offensive power vs all-time-healers) or borked mechanics (well, n ot broken, but not to reliant NR).

About roles: lets take look ad speed and fixer. In game manual it states, the fixer is "Man who will get you anything" (cuting long story short), so, at very and of AO, and later on, till 2004, Fixers were masters of speed, B&E, getting mishions blitzed or most im portant on tower wars. So, knowing that, lets say what fixer has novadays, which doesnt have other proffesion?
- Speed? Every at TL5 (or even at TL4 now) have insane speed
- Evac/Grid? Most of characters can get Rubi-ka Recall beacon or Insta Grid by PP
- B&E? Opening chests and doors is not a chalange for most with Lockpick and 250 skill

Myself had a fixer for fun, but as game progress, I found its nothing special or different like Adv or Enf (eccept those two have more heals/dd/coon ect...)

And another comparasion: Doctor
It used to be proffession ( and I am talking about lvl 1 to 200, not end game) most wanted in any situation: be it Ninjas, Borgs, TeamMissions, TOTW, Foremans, Coh ect. Wherever you went, you had to get doc, or u saw reclaim very fast. Good doc was priceless.
Now, even free players arent needing doctor, when Enf/Adv/Sold/Fix with CoH weapons does insane dmg and everything fells fast. Heck, even my doc was not wanted in any team, when I was lvling him (he was very well twinked), because its better to get more DD, then heals - they arent needed. Of course, at TL7 doc is still welcome, but... 1 doc suits most.

So, I belive balance is to put classes in right place. And I hope it will make it.

[Anarchic1]

So, I belive balance is to put classes in right place. And I hope it will make it.

that's obvious sir, since we all know the overall goals, but we don't have the understanding behind change. How would shortening drains to 15seconds affect trader's survival chances? Did fc ever address these types of questions directly. No.

Why does MP pets get a rewamp but crat pets stay the same? Is their a significant difference between these pets?

This is what I'm trying to get that. They state changes but never conclusively state their logic behind it. And by not stating their logic, it implies they either just pushing out the **** and hope it works or carefully debating it. And in light of some changes, I'm guessing the former.

[lainbr]

Or why MPs pratically lost their ability to debuff in pvm? (wtf with the 10s duration max and 20s immunity?!!)