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Thread: Friday with Means - March 4th, 2011 - Montreal Party Registration

  1. #141
    Who was that guy who said: "You can fool everybody some of the time and you can fool some all the time. What you cant do is fool everybody all of the time?"

    Just curious. Yah. Honest. Fo realz. No doubt. Absolutlee. Totally.
    Gustatus similis pullus.

  2. #142
    Noobius76, i am paying for the game in it's current state... as technogen pointed out. If in 2-3 years we still don't have the engine or the rebalance i would still pay for the game as i enjoy it in the state it is now too.

    People can voice their opinion, but when they start acting butthurt and cry about everything you're pushing it. Most 'haters' act smug and believe they're holding a crusade against FC and that their cries make the engine and rebalance suddenly drop out of the sky.
    FC knows it doesnt make people happy to push deadlines back. FC cannot forsee the future when their employees get sick.
    Maybe they're holding back on data to stop feeding all those cry kiddies more, because FC realises they lack any form of common sense and decency as pointed out in this FWM (srsly, bashing people because they're sick ><).

    Start using your brain and think for a sec about AO... you play for the new engine? or for what it offers now. If it's the first, move on to another game and come back when the engine is released. Complaining does not speed up the process...and certainly not complaining about the same things over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over.... cause we heard you the first time and we know you aint happy with it.

    comparing N-korea with this is just showing your uther ignorance in everything just to make your own point valid in your own world.
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  3. #143
    Quote Originally Posted by omegahealer View Post
    Noobius76, i am paying for the game in it's current state... as technogen pointed out.
    This is what leads me, and others, to the conclusion that the "haters" suffer from an entitlement complex. Their complaints are based upon the idea that the engine is owed them somehow - why they think this I do not know.
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  4. #144
    Quote Originally Posted by omegahealer View Post
    Noobius76, i am paying for the game in it's current state... as technogen pointed out. If in 2-3 years we still don't have the engine or the rebalance i would still pay for the game as i enjoy it in the state it is now too.
    How good for you that you don't mind being mislead then.

    Quote Originally Posted by omegahealer View Post
    People can voice their opinion, but when they start acting butthurt and cry about everything you're pushing it. Most 'haters' act smug and believe they're holding a crusade against FC and that their cries make the engine and rebalance suddenly drop out of the sky.
    No that's a wrongful assumption on your end. What ppl that complain want is honest, believable and perhaps even PLAUSIBLE information on the engine (at least the ones I've talked to personally). Not just some pathetic picture with heads. How hard can it be to tell us the truth?

    Quote Originally Posted by omegahealer View Post
    FC knows it doesnt make people happy to push deadlines back. FC cannot forsee the future when their employees get sick.
    C'mon, you're not seriously suggesting that micro events like that are the cause of the engine still not being released after these years, are you?

    Quote Originally Posted by omegahealer View Post
    Maybe they're holding back on data to stop feeding all those cry kiddies more, because FC realises they lack any form of common sense and decency as pointed out in this FWM (srsly, bashing people because they're sick ><).
    As I said I luckily don't speak for anyone else, but aren't you getting at least a little bit tired reading about everything that is apparently going wrong all the time?

    Quote Originally Posted by omegahealer View Post
    Start using your brain and think for a sec about AO... you play for the new engine? or for what it offers now. If it's the first, move on to another game and come back when the engine is released.
    So you're saying that we don't deserve correct information and that the only thing we can do is shut up and quit?
    How very sympathetic of you.

    Quote Originally Posted by omegahealer View Post
    Complaining does not speed up the process...
    I don't think anyone (except maybe you) ever thought it would. But you see that isn't what I am after. I am after real information upon which I can base decisions. That's not too much to ask, is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by omegahealer View Post
    and certainly not complaining about the same things over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over.... cause we heard you the first time and we know you aint happy with it.
    Perhaps if we got an honest answer we wouldn't have to repeat the question. Did you ever consider that?

    Quote Originally Posted by omegahealer View Post
    comparing N-korea with this is just showing your uther ignorance in everything just to make your own point valid in your own world.
    Actually it's a quite good point, even if you don't understand it. And if you were to take your own advice and use your brain you may (hopefully) understand that I wasn't comparing anything to anything. I was suggesting that you might like it there given your attitude towards those who like to voice their opinions on things they believe are wrong or bad or untrue.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ayria View Post
    This is what leads me, and others, to the conclusion that the "haters" suffer from an entitlement complex. Their complaints are based upon the idea that the engine is owed them somehow - why they think this I do not know.
    "They" probably feel they are entitled to it because of what the game director himself said and because it's been several years now, and because the current engine is almost 10 years old and works so poorly that it's barely playable on current hardware. *

    And yes, because "they" are paying for the game and because they have been told that if they are patient the engine will be released. But you know, there is a limit to the patience of any normal human being.

    *Barely playable due to framerate issues that include but aren't limited to the latest <15 fps nvidia issues.
    Last edited by Noobius76; Mar 6th, 2011 at 12:41:43.

  5. #145
    Quote Originally Posted by Noobius76 View Post
    "They" probably feel they are entitled to it because they were promised it by the game director and because it's been several years now, and because the current is almost 10 years old and works so poorly that it's barely playable on current hardware.

    And yes, because "they" are paying for the game and because they have been told that if they are patient the engine will be released. But you know, there is a limit to the patience of any normal human being.
    Things change, the fact that "they" can't accept that is no fault of Funcoms. I had a post about how we've all said things we intended to uphold but failed to, before it got hit by the nerf stick (probably for it's tone or just in a mass clearing), and it still holds true.

    It's not like we're in elementary school anymore where making a pinky swear promise with your friend is like signing a legal contract with blood. We all make promises, to ourselves and others, that we break. The fact that Funcom does it does not make them a bad company, it makes them human. Rest assured Blizzard, MindArk, CCP, LL (etc) all make promises they break and piss off some portion of their customer base.

    Funcom is tame compared to some of the stuff I've seen other companies pull on their customers. And perhaps that's why I'm willing to cut them more slack, I've yet to see them do the things I've seen other companies do.
    Last edited by Ayria; Mar 6th, 2011 at 12:43:03.
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  6. #146
    voicing your opinion != repeating the same {stuff} over and over and over again. think about that. If FC hasn't answered by now, maybe they don't want to answer, think about that.

    You're getting correct info, the engine is delayed cause of numerous factors that some people consider "hell it shouldn't" and others think "yeah, {stuff} happens... take your time".

    You are twisting everything to prove you are right, while it's just annoying the living hell out of people that they gotta read the same stuff over and over

    you discard the switch of engine, that they have to wait for the AoC team to finish theirs. You ignore numerous things that add up in the end.

    Hell i cannot play the game since the last gfx update, but i do log in now and then to help org members with enjoyable stuff that don't suffer from the delays i have. I want the engine asap too, but i am not crying every fcking week about it.

    "they" should realise the difference between a promise and the EULA that "they" agreed with. what if Means promises he's gonna run around in a pink tutu next week and doesn't do it? you're gonna get your torch and pitchfork when he doesn't? i'm using my brain and realise what i can expect from FC.
    Last edited by Anarrina; Mar 6th, 2011 at 15:27:06. Reason: removed obscenities
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  7. #147
    Ugh. So yet another FwM thread following the same trend. This seems to be how it goes:

    People ask in a development blog for info about development progress on X.

    No info is given.

    People voice their diapproval of lack of info.

    They get pounced on by people with the usual arguments:
    - You're a troll.
    - You're a hater.
    - You're entitled.
    - Learn to wait.
    - These things happen.
    - You're not paying for development. It's a free gift. (My personal favourite of late.)

    These people get called fanboys.

    They get pissed off and repeat arguments ad infinitum.


    Some of the complainers complain a bit more rudely than they really should, yes. But attacking people who ask for more development information in a development blog is utterly ludicrous and calling them trolls and haters is laughable. These are people who love AO just as much as you do, but would like to hold FC to standard - as is normal in any other business.

    Who is really doing the "trolling" here? Who is really initiating the personal attacks? Some people in this thread really need to get off their high horses imo and stop accusing people of derailing a development thread with questions about development.

    And before anyone wants to call me entitled and a hater: I've put a lot of time, work and money into a game I love just like everyone else here. And for the last how ever many years I've said often that I don't think AO even needs a new engine.
    Last edited by Redesine; Mar 6th, 2011 at 13:14:38.
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  8. #148
    You say it's the fanboys, I say that AO has both groups... The fanboys who tend to glorify everything as it is, and the others... The haters who don't like anything that FC does and simply scream omzlulzffsroflgieb at everything just to prove their point... Whatever it is...

    Basicaly those dudes think that they could run the entire company better, and make it do miracles.
    I really wish they could learn how damn hard it is to keep a team together, and make sure they do their job.

    Not even mentioning keeping up with the "prophesized" release dat...
    Yes! You have to be a prophet to know when it comes out! Theres MILLIONS of things that can go wrong during the development! Millions of bugs that can get in, and be darn hard to weed out!

    I for one am annoyed about the prolonged time, but I'm not trolling the forums, nor am I asking for updates all the time, because I actually understand what the problem is, and am ready for some huge delays.
    Maybe I am a fanboy, but I'm working in the same industry, and know how hard it might get, to keep up with the dates.
    Last edited by sawtyss; Mar 6th, 2011 at 13:23:13.
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  9. #149
    The problem is faith, or lack of it.
    I have no problem to believe and understand that things can be difficult. And all project of any kind have setbacks from time to time. As I am working in the building industry I am somewhat familiar to such things. But, and an important but, when you know what you are doing you take this into consideration. Its a part of beeing a proffesional.
    And maybe its just me, but I dont make promises Im not pretty sure I can keep. Especially if the customer is someone that have no clue about my job, because he has to trust me. Im all he got.
    Now, there is some debate about exactly whats promised and whats just hoped for and what players have just made up. I dont know. And im not sure I really care.
    Because Im loosing faith, or to be honest, mostly lost it. Because fc, represented by Means and his boys/girls is all I got. Everything is going so fantastic and so well, apart from the broken bones, sudden holidays and sickness. But progress nicely, believe us, though we have to wait on others wich we have no influence on. And to me it start to sound a lot like a plummer that isnt able to fulfill his contract. And because of that I am wondering about motives, agendas and the future of this game, wich I have dedicated a lot of time and money in.
    It is probably unfair, rude, maybe even hateful and all that. I dont think its fun to be Means, sitting between us and fc, trying to make both sides happy. And a lot of the negative feedback surely should be directed at fc, not Means.
    But a simple "this might take 5-7 years" would have been enough. For me at last.
    Or have I missed it?

  10. #150
    Imagine an outsider looking in.
    "Oh my, the dev team caught quite a bad flu there. At least they're getting back to work now.. That's good. And the GD is open about it! That's a +!". Moments later. "Let's see what this incredible community is up for. Wait... what? They're calling lies, saying 'hope for' = 'deadline', say they know everything better than everyone else? Oh my what a bunch of jerks! And I'll have to play with these people? I'm outta here".

    Keep that in mind. At this point in time, I think the vocal minority is a much larger "put-off" for new players than anything FC is doing.
    Last edited by Demoder; Mar 6th, 2011 at 14:40:06.
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  11. #151
    So... "MP doc" meant "Montreal Party documentation" all along?

    I should have known. This is just too much hate!

    Also:
    Flu is OP and must be nerfed!
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    I'll never titlewhore. Its like watching gay midget porn, it just doesn't get me off. Both titlewhores and gay midgets have all right in the world to do as they please tho'. Knock yourselves out.

  12. #152
    The small size of the AO team, a playerbase that have been here for a long time and the way information is handled between FC and the playerbase, has lead to people looking at FC as not just "a company" but also "people they know, that are working hard".

    So the main argument here seems to be between people that view FC as a company in the context of this argument and those that view FC as "people they know, that work hard".

    Those that view FC as a company, will not give FC any more "good will" than they are prepared to give any other company. Those that view FC as a small group of friendly people that works hard, will focus on the good stuff and disregard the bad, just like a friend would with another friend.

    So this one group of people wont see eye to eye with this other group of people because their arguments originate from completely different places. Keep in mind that it is possible to be part of BOTH these groups. It just so happens that some people here choose to focus on one part and not the other and thus become extremists. Or fanboy/hater if you prefer.

    On top of this, it also doesn't help when this whole discussion is jam packed with gray areas, whereas many seem to think this is a black and white issue. This is not just about deadlines. This is not just about what is reasonable and what is not.

    I'm sorry to hear about the sickness and I hope you are getting well soon, if you haven't already. I'm definitely not going to hold this kind of thing against FC because these are special circumstances. And I'm also not insane, which helps.

    My personal issues with FC has nothing to do with the progression of the engine or anything else "goal oriented". I'm perfectly able to understand that things take as long as they take for a reason and that no one at FC is holding anything back on purpose. Why would they. My issues are mostly just rooted in FC jumping the gun too often. Too eager to give out positive information when they clearly aren't sure about how realistic their goals are. Oh it will get done. Everything will get done eventually. But there's a special kind of professionalism connected to WHEN and HOW you tell a playerbase something. In my personal opinion, FC often misses the mark on this particular one, and over time (we are talking a lot of time here), it starts to wear on me. I originally came back to AO 2ish years ago or whenever that was because I was under the impression that we were getting close to new engine and new profession balance and I wanted to get my old characters ready for all of that and I wanted to level some new characters as well for the same reason. Now here we are, years later, and we have no more progress worth mentioning. Not ingame or on test servers anyway. Now, WHY did I think we were getting close with engine and balance back then? Because OTHER companies are in my experience more professional in how they give out information to players and I expected that FC was getting close by the way they were talking about it. Not in a million years did I imagine that anything would be mentioned and discussed in fanfare, and end up taking many years to complete. I mean, no average player is expected to play a MMO for 2 years, let alone 4. We don't actually LIVE here. No one does. My point is, tell us when it's time to tell us. Also, please stop saying things like "it's progressing very well" because for outsiders it means "soon here", because that's what it typically means, which wouldn't be true. For us long-timers, it means .. nothing, as it could still be years before it's done. So stop saying it >.<

    FC last got a financial slap when they did this "Jump the gun" thing with AoC. A lot of people got a refund for the game because FC jumped the gun. And no, that's not because of the xbo360 version that they were going to release but didn't. This was the "AoC is dx11 compatible" written on the box when it wasn't.

    FC could save themselves so many problems if they just were more professional in how and when they give information to people.
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  13. #153
    Stop it. Stop calling each other trolls, haters, fanboys, etc, etc, etc. Stop accusing the developers of being liars.

    Just. Stop.

    Start treating each other with respect. Its fine to disagree. Its fine to be disappointed and upset. But every week these discussions get more and more vituperative and downright depressing to those who have to read it (and in my case - moderate it).

    Think twice before you write it, then think twice more before you post it. And kudos to those of you who do manage to explain your degree of being disappointed and upset without actually attacking anyone personally.

    Maybe its because I deal with sick people day in, and day out, but I don't think I've ever been so personally disappointed in the forum base until I saw attacks on their person for being seriously ill, and this is probably the only time I'll ever say this to the group as a whole. Some of you need to get a bit of perspective on what constitutes life and death matters.


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  14. #154
    Quote Originally Posted by Demoder View Post
    Imagine an outsider looking in.
    "Oh my, the dev team caught quite a bad flu there. At least they're getting back to work now.. That's good. And the GD is open about it! That's a +!". Moments later. "Let's see what this incredible community is up for. Wait... what? They're calling lies, saying 'hope for' = 'deadline', say they know everything better than everyone else? Oh my what a bunch of jerks! And I'll have to play with these people? I'm outta here".

    Keep that in mind. At this point in time, I think the vocal minority is a much larger "put-off" for new players than anything FC is doing.
    Does the opinion of our hypothetical outsider change when he digs a little deeper and sees just how long we have been talking about a new engine with very little (publicly available!) progress shown?

    "Oh my the devs are incapable of communicating accurate development progress, planning, and even get owned by the flu! What are they doing in there sharing one spoon around a bowl of gruel while waiting on the real developers at AoC to bail them out? I have to pay these people? I'm outta here!"

    It goes both ways. Personally I think an honest impartial observer would walk away with two conclusions: The playerbase of AO is both passionate, and gullible. The developers of AO clearly love the game, but have very poor project management and communication skills.

  15. #155
    Quote Originally Posted by Demoder View Post
    Imagine an outsider looking in.
    "Oh my, the dev team caught quite a bad flu there. At least they're getting back to work now.. That's good. And the GD is open about it! That's a +!". Moments later. "Let's see what this incredible community is up for. Wait... what? They're calling lies, saying 'hope for' = 'deadline', say they know everything better than everyone else? Oh my what a bunch of jerks! And I'll have to play with these people? I'm outta here".

    Keep that in mind. At this point in time, I think the vocal minority is a much larger "put-off" for new players than anything FC is doing.
    Yes let's stop complaining and let's pretend everything is hunky dory instead.

    That might work for you but it won't for me. And I have no desire to contribute to building a fasade of the game either. I find the notion dishonest.

    About the flu thinger. I don't care about that. And I think noone else really does. But it's kind of not the first time we hear similar stuff when there is no apparent progress to be reported, is it?

  16. #156
    There's no misleading going on. There's communication of hope and expectations. Those may not be fulfilled.

    And I think it funny that you'd think that because no progress is to be reported that they'd come up with a lie about being struck with flu. You seriously need a dose of anti-conspiracy medicine, because it's getting to be quite ridiculous. If you don't like it, then take those 1100 days of online time and be happy that you had them and be on your way. I hear Rift is nice this time of year.
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  17. #157
    Quote Originally Posted by omegahealer View Post
    voicing your opinion != repeating the same {stuff} over and over and over again. think about that. If FC hasn't answered by now, maybe they don't want to answer, think about that.
    Enlighten as to what other options stand ready for us when we aren't gettin an answer worth the name on the issue?

    Quote Originally Posted by omegahealer View Post
    You're getting correct info, the engine is delayed cause of numerous factors that some people consider "hell it shouldn't" and others think "yeah, {stuff} happens... take your time".
    And as everyone already said many many times that info isn't sufficient. You can't just say that things are going well, the engine will be out in q1 2011. And then at the end of that period after a long draught of info change it to q2, maybe. That's just not good enough anymore.

    Quote Originally Posted by omegahealer View Post
    You are twisting everything to prove you are right, while it's just annoying the living hell out of people that they gotta read the same stuff over and over
    Actually I'm just pointing out to a few ppl what the consequences of what they are saying are. I guess that's annoying if you are wrong. But guess what. Noone can force anyone to read anything on a forum. You know my name. You are free to skip my posts if you like.

    Kinda funny how you expect me/us - the so called haters to just quit the game without voicing our opinions and ditching thousans of hours of work. But you yourself are free to complain about us voicing those opinions when it's super duper easy for you to skip them. How does that work exactly?

    Quote Originally Posted by omegahealer View Post
    you discard the switch of engine, that they have to wait for the AoC team to finish theirs. You ignore numerous things that add up in the end.
    And what will it be next time, jupiter alligned with venus?

    Quote Originally Posted by omegahealer View Post
    Hell i cannot play the game since the last gfx update, but i do log in now and then to help org members with enjoyable stuff that don't suffer from the delays i have. I want the engine asap too, but i am not crying every fcking week about it.
    Who's crying? Voicing opinions=crying? I think you're the one crying because you've realized you can't win this argument. Namecalling is a surefire way to know that you've lost.

    Quote Originally Posted by omegahealer View Post
    "they" should realise the difference between a promise and the EULA that "they" agreed with. what if Means promises he's gonna run around in a pink tutu next week and doesn't do it?
    I couldn't care less about the private life of any FC employee. I don't see how such a statemen would be pertinent to a discussion. One that is directly related to the engine IS though. Especially since that's just about the only information we got.

    Quote Originally Posted by omegahealer View Post
    you're gonna get your torch and pitchfork when he doesn't? i'm using my brain and realise what i can expect from FC.
    I guess we have vastly different expectations on what is reasonable to expect then.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mastablasta View Post
    There's no misleading going on. There's communication of hope and expectations. Those may not be fulfilled.
    Since you're not (as far as I know) an employee of FC and therefore have the same info as everyone else, perhaps you should elaborate on why you think so. We/I have expressed why we feel it's misleading to say that things are progressing well and give us dates that are then overshot. You could explain why you think that isn't misleading instead of just saying so.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mastablasta View Post
    And I think it funny that you'd think that because no progress is to be reported that they'd come up with a lie about being struck with flu. You seriously need a dose of anti-conspiracy medicine, because it's getting to be quite ridiculous. If you don't like it, then take those 1100 days of online time and be happy that you had them and be on your way. I hear Rift is nice this time of year.
    You're saying the same thing as the others: "If you aren't happy, quit." That may be your opinion, but I doubt any company that is depending on it's customer would say the same thing.

    For me, that is getting very, very old.
    Last edited by Noobius76; Mar 6th, 2011 at 16:34:52.

  18. #158
    Noobius76; part of the point that the rest of us are trying to make to you and those like you is that, Means could come out with an hour long gameplay video of the new engine today and you would do 1 of 2 things, or possibly both.

    1.) Bitch that "it looks complete, release it already." when it's not and it's not ready to be released.

    2.) Bitch that it's fake and they just put AO models in to AoC for a quick fake video and that this is just to lead people on more.

    There's most likely no new videos of the engine because of my 1st post, and because it doesn't look that much different right now. You, or someone like you, complained that the "renders of the heads don't qualify" as showing progression. Yet if those head models and everything else is not exported to the game built you won't really see any real update between the current engine and the new one. The people whom saw the engine in Oslo at the last party stated; "There were a few changes but really it just looked like AO with some shadow effects." YES a large number of people saw the new engine in Oslo at the last part.

    *part was wrong, comment removed*
    Last edited by Technogen; Mar 6th, 2011 at 17:04:33. Reason: Removed incorrect part.
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  19. #159
    Quote Originally Posted by Technogen View Post
    YES a large number of people saw the new engine in Oslo at the last part. There was even video of it Means had on his camera he was going to show, but someone stole the camera.
    So why not show us now? He was going to right? Someone set up a donation page to buy FC a copy of fraps or just crack it for them already.

  20. #160
    I don't know, I'm not Means, and you aren't either. Maybe he got so pissed off how people were reacting to their work. Or maybe FC Corp said "Hey that's got a lot of AoC's hidden stuff in it, and we don't want to pre-release that info, so hold off on that."

    Once again, Means does not have the end say to everything in AO.
    "A whole new place to run around for ages in then die suddenly without warning."

    "I know who coded pet pathing... and when I see him I say "/follow" and I start waling in to walls :P"

    The "Trolls" option is incorrect. The term trolls is not used to describe the gathering of information on the Internet.

    <@Kintaii> L2P

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