1hb/1he enfos

[Kinkstaah]

I apologize for the whining nature of this post but I just gotta say it...

1hb/1he enfos have the ability to drop an evade prof as fast as an NT (up to just shy of 6k def rating or thereabouts?), have the best alpha against healers, cannot be alpha'd themselves, have approximate adv levels of long term survivability against all but soldiers and fixers (unless your an hp build fixer however...gl with surviving that long), have massive AR, a high def rating, massive NR, capped runspeed ofc, and can evac just about any fight...

Problem or l2p (reroll ranged adv or sold)?

I'd say at least make devastating blow 90% instead of 50% check. As an evade prof, it's like having a 30k hp, 3k+ NR, 15k+ damage absorbing, 20k-30k hp/min healing, capped runspeed, ha ha wut he just evaded my perks with 3k AR, stun capable NT chasing you. At least the enf double and triple are on longer cooldowns though (60s and 15mins).

I dunno, after playing Agent, Soldier, and MA, Enforcer really is the least viable. But perhaps I chose three nemesis classes for Enforcers. But as an "evade class" (MA) I can certainly tell you someone with AS or a NT (especially a NT) is about 500 times more deadly.

QQ more.

I just don't see how anyone has problems against enforcers, exception being a crat fighting an Enforcer with rrfe, and MR. You're a bit out of luck there. But not any more than say, fighting any other class that has MR, also. MR > Crat evades. I just don't get the rest of the complaints, though.

[Kinkstaah]

It's just 3.3k-ish AR to perk fixer with that 50% check perk through dof. So, no proc, mongo rage or any other circumstantial BS.

Also all your numbers are wrong about non MR enfs by the way, not that anyone really cares about learning the numbers and slapping enforcers around.

50% def is 50% of your evade. Your AAD is counted in full. This means fixers, and other evade classes routinely do dodge devastating blow.

Bring the pain, has the chance to hit of one regular hit. Vs an evader, this isn't much. It isnt 100%, and it's probably some stupid value like 20%? Depending on how lucky you are.

Dimach has a 30 minute recharge.

I also hear NT's using NBS are a problem for Crats too. Where's that thread?

[Johnnykay]

Show me how in a self-buffed fight to stand/tank and fight an endgame Enf that knows what he's doing.

[Kinkstaah]

Show me how in a self-buffed fight to stand/tank and fight an endgame Enf that knows what he's doing.

As what? A MP?

Wait, should EVERY class be able to stand and tank an Enforcer alpha, fully knowing an Enf has NO damage outside this alpha? I.e, should EVERY class be able to just.. ignore.. everything the best enfs in the game throw at them?

Cause if you do get rrfe, and you do kite, like a sensible person, I reckon that scenario is pretty accurate, and Enforcer alphas are really a "if you die to this, you are doing something wrong" kind of scenario.

But hey, as a MP you can

1) Use a Zset shield
2) Have SS running
3) Get rrfe
4) Kite

Any combination of the above will leave you alive, and after an enf has used their alpha, they are completely and utterly harmless. Yes, they don't go down as easily as, well, actually, they are about thje same in defence as any evader, a soldier, or anyone who can cast a fear and run off, actually. Survive the alpha, and you will pretty much just ignore enforcers, the way you would ignore an opi shade that can't perk you, or a keeper that can't perk you, etc.

I'm not just making **** up when I honestly believe, offense wise, A soldier, Agent, MA has far more practical offence in PVP. They actually contribute to kills and can take things down instead of an alpha or nothing wonder, if every card is stacked in favour of the enf. The only class you can walk up to and expect every perk to land, and everything to go 'as planned' is versus a doctor, which can easily just foil it by popping MOTR, or a stim and a BG heal/go full agro to spam a heal etc.

If you don't lose your **** when you see a big enfo running at you, it's really not that hard, and enfs do have the right to be able to kill people. I wish their damage wasn't so alpha or nothing, because it makes people cry when you kill them claiming it's unfair. But this also applies to Shades, and Keepers etc.

[Lazy]

As what? A MP?

Wait, should EVERY class be able to stand and tank an Enforcer alpha, fully knowing an Enf has NO damage outside this alpha? I.e, should EVERY class be able to just.. ignore.. everything the best enfs in the game throw at them?

Cause if you do get rrfe, and you do kite, like a sensible person, I reckon that scenario is pretty accurate, and Enforcer alphas are really a "if you die to this, you are doing something wrong" kind of scenario.

So basically never agree to a selfbuffed duel with any enfo (moreso a trox enfo). Gocha

[Kinkstaah]

So basically never agree to a selfbuffed duel with any enfo (moreso a trox enfo). Gocha

You can't really call duels PVP if there are artificial rules stopping you from playing your class properly.

So yeah, Bow MP's should probably avoid duelling toe to toe with MR enforcers. Just like theyd avoid shades, or keepers, or Soldiers avoid NT's in duels, or any of the other matchups where one side has an obvious advantage.

Say like, a shade vs an Enf, or a MA vs an Enf, or a Keeper vs an Enf, or a Soldier vs an Enf, or a Fixer vs an Enf, or an Adventurer vs an Enf, or a Trader that lands a drain vs an Enf, or...

[Graftmage]

50% def is 50% of your evade. Your AAD is counted in full. This means fixers, and other evade classes routinely do dodge devastating blow.

If you actually read the thread, I already stated that I counted that in. Absolutely top equipped fixer will have 2800ish evade and 2k AAD. That's 3400 AR to perk (I actually asked, enf with **** tl5 symbs and 300cc has 3300ish AR with chall). Yes, fixer resist that, if uses 1k AAD perk on 10 minute recharge in time.

Problem is not in the offense itself, it's in the combination of that + being extremely hard to kill (unless enf is fighting sold) + being able to evac from any fight whenever you like.

[Cryfreman]

So yeah, Bow MP's should probably avoid duelling toe to toe with MR enforcers..

How exactly do I get distance from a enfo so I dont have to fight toe to toe as an mp??
Nothing really lands due to stupid levels of NR
At least with a shade, and I see first I can attempt to do something.

Shield mp? double proc off a pet, not as if they are doing any dmg while you wait for the proc's to fire.

[Johnnykay]

The problem is 95% of Enforcers think they're PvP champions if you lose to them toe to toe, but think you're a cheat if you kite. Most won't even duel you unless you agree to stand there and eat their alphas over and over.

[Gatester]

I recently went 1he/1hb again, it is OP but this thread overall is more or less the same sad repition of false facts.

Survival:
My enforcer can escape from almost anything, the occasional snare perk or NT root that actually lands before I get away can be annoying. Usually if there is someone I need to take out, I burn all my offense into them to make them use of their defensive perks, run off, and come back 60 seconds later and finish them off with relatively high success.

Now my health is only 30,000 now, and that is with colossal health perked, which honestly is not that much for a profession that takes so much damage in pvp. With coon, heal perks, and being able to extend to one more coon useage, I can generally last about 2 to 3 minutes against professions with consistent regular/perk damage. NTs can actually kill you quite a bit faster thanks to DM but they can also die much quicker so I consider it an ok trade-off.

I do not think the survivability and the ability to have this 2 to 3 minute survival against constant damage is actually fair, but I would rather enforcers not be able to flee at all but have a more reliable means of killing someone as a trade-off. Reliable in that people should not be kiting an enforcer who cannot, in turn, escape their opponent. Why should a tank profession always be running away?

Defense:
Simply put, enforcer defense is not good. My pvp setup has roughly 2400 def. Now I know some of you like to equip 5 different hud items into a single slot to give an enforcer a miraculous 300 extra def, or somehow give enforcers AI40 so they can perk Alpha genome 10 (Mongo Rage), Coli 10 (+100 AR and those AI perks), Conc 10 (necessary for most atrox to cast their nanos), and Mutate 10 (+200 AAD 1/4 of the time from highway), but be reasonable please. In the setup in my signature even, which even used some combined scouts, I was under 2700 def and just under 2900 def with highway running 1/4 of the time. That setup in my signature also had 2800 AR with challenger, so you have to realize that all these stats simultaneously are impossible.

The Alpha:
The perks need to be nerfed. The AOE stun that "never misses" does miss the stun portion often, and devastating blow at 50% def check can miss an evade profession, but overall the alpha is too strong. Dimach is not an issue, it is a stupid special I agree but we might as well throw our shadowbreeds into this argument. I can also counter the dimach complaints with MoTR use that eliminates 100% of the stuns from an enforcer alpha, but realistically these are all pathetic arguments.

The problem with the enforcer alpha 1he/1hb alpha is that an enforcer is not pressured to use it quickly, and the powerful alpha can be used by experienced enforcers to near guaranteed success. In contrast, the shade perks and alpha are far superior in damage, shades have more potential AR, shades can make just as much use of MR as enforcers, and the shade alpha is available almost twice as often. The difference between shades and enforcers is the much lower shade survival, meaning that if a shade tries to "wait out" the perfect time to alpha then that shade will likely be dead.

A powerful alpha, or offense, must contrast with a reliable defense or survival. Enforcer survival is far too high for an offense that can also be made as effective as it is. More or less it is the fault of the enforcer if he dies, and an enforcer does have the capability of killing anyone with the right timing.

Attack Rating:
Enforcer attack rating is potentially high, but rarely so. With 203 CC set on and pretty much as many AAO/weapon skill items I can find, my enforcer is just over 2900 static AR and hits over 3200 AR with challenger. I am working on a higher quality CC set, but my attack rating with challenger will be no more than 3350 with 1 handed blunt ONLY. People forget that 1 handed edge has its own set of weapon skills to deal with as well, and my AR there might high 3200, 150 less than my 1 handed blunt skill level. You would think that swapping for a 1 handed edge focus would be smarter, but that does reduce the chance of landing devastating blow and crush bone where you need it most.

For the most part, enforcer attack rating is far too low for reasonable perks. 2 handed setups or pure 1 handed edge setups have a particularly high lack of effectiveness overall, and its only because of the broken nature of the 1 handed blunt perks that the enforcer alpha is effective at all anymore.

Stun Perks:
The worst part, is when people bring the "massive amount of stun perks" argument into the picture. I currently have 1 stun in my pvp setup from bring the pain. Now edged mastery, blunt mastery, and bio shielding are necessary for any arguments against 1he/1hb enforcers. That leaves me with 10 perk points to use. My choices are:

Manners of Mongo 9
Brawler 4 (6)
Form of Troll 9 (10)
Colossal Health 9 (10)

Now with brawler 6, and you might as well go 6, my enforcer has a brawl attack rating about equal to my 1 handed blunt attack rating. This means I have one more reliable, 2 second stun and nano init debuff, which I can use on most people. This is actually a relatively nice option for a purely offensive setup and even gives me 4 more perks to use in genius or freak str. Unfortunately, I have 26500 max health with brawler 6 and very few heals. My survival is garbage and I die incredibly easily. Brawler 6 was not an option because I lost my ability to wait for the perfect moment to alpha.

Manners of Mongo 9 for Groin kick then becomes a popular option. Groin kick is incredibly slow, so in an alpha it is rarely viable outside of being the very first perk in a chain. That is fine as the perk has a nice duration and powerful init debuff. There is also the problem in that Groin kick cannot be used against anyone except a standing target, since one must be facing the enforcer for it to activate. This makes utilizing groin kick rather difficult in non-duel situations where people tend to kite enforcers. My health will be around 28000 with manners of mongo which is generally bad. Finally, and most importantly, Groin kick is reliant on brawl for the attack skill. Now keep in mind that I cannot perk brawler 6 and manners of mongo 10 at the same time. With challenger I am just over 3000 attack rating with Groin kick.

Form of troll, nothing like a self snare and 2 brawl reliant, slow to fire stun perks. Most enforcers have moved away from this option for pvp.

Colossal health is my choice. It puts me up to 30000 max health, it gives me some additional healing, and it gives me a nice little never miss health drain which can occasionally do nice damage. In the end, I have ONE (1) stun which can sometimes bug and not stun someone. The stun complaints are entirely exaggerated and only a few Mongo Rage touting enforcers are likely to have 2 stuns. If anything is a problem it is the crush bone+big smash or groin kick init debuff combination which can leave someone around -2000 nano init for a short time. The init debuffing is too much in conjuction with the damage, not the 2 or 3 seconds of stunning.



Unless one of you can show me an enforcer with 3000 static def, 3500 static AR, 4000 static NR, and 36000 max health, a lot of what I am seeing are people who do better with nerfing others than improving themselves. Enforcers do need nerfs, but all professions need nerfs in one way or another. It does not mean you have to be ignorant enough to quote absurd stats rather than figuring out for yourself exactly what is going on.

If anything, you all should realize that without the overpowered aspects of the enforcer profession it would be an entirely unplayable profession in pvp. That is a major issue that a lot of people ignore, and is why things like LE nukes before DM were actually necessary. Do you guys remember NT's before LE in pvp? With the way things have changed, the only way to pvp is to be overpowered on one way or another.

[Enfizzle]

^^ Gate.

Just to add to the Stats, I have a full equipped Defensive pvp enforcer -

Im sat at 1633 in all evades + 1100 AAD -- 2733 Defense rating +200AAD during highway.
Thats 2933 Defense MAX for 30secons ever 2 mins.

HP: 35134 -- plenty too be honest, the health element of my setup i am happy with: not too high or too low.

AR:3019 AR without Chal --3320 AR with chal therefor, hardly setting the world alight to say it locks my NR + layers + healing out for 20 seconds.

NR 3203 - high as **** fair enough. but also the only melee class who doesnt have passive root resist in one for or another.

RS 3232 - again fast. But i feel we need to be with such pathetic regular damage anyway we need tgo be in rage of people all the time.

Dont get me wrong -- enfs need to take a nerf, but people need to stop throwing out figures from extreme setups all combined together - my enforcer is in a very defensive setup. Defensive almost to the stage of losing a viable attack rating... so can people please stop saying they cant perk an enforcer on a 3k AR shade then the enf turn around and perks them through DoF. Sure with mongo rage they might ... but for 3k def you need 3.2k AR max with chal ... l2play

rant over.

[lainbr]

I as a owner of a MP and an Enf, I agree with the 2 MPs and 2 Enfs above ^^ Bow MPs can do nothing agaisnt Enfs, Enfs need to be nerfed, but they are not sooooo dammnnnn op!

[Weltall]

AR:3019 AR without Chal --3320 AR with chal therefor, hardly setting the world alight to say it locks my NR + layers + healing out for 20 seconds.

It's instant AR on demand, locking out other nanos shouldn't matter much when you want to push out an alpha and kill something, plus rage and mongo hots still would/should be running after casting chall, plus it lasts quite a lot longer than the 20s that it locks your nanos for.

NR 3203 - high as **** fair enough. but also the only melee class who doesnt have passive root resist in one for or another.

You have 20% passive root/snare/stun/calm resist and at least 60% blind and 60% ubt resist... and you can instaremove all nano based roots/snares (except NT ones) with one click of a button

[Gatester]

It's instant AR on demand, locking out other nanos shouldn't matter much when you want to push out an alpha and kill something, plus rage and mongo hots still would/should be running after casting chall, plus it lasts quite a lot longer than the 20s that it locks your nanos for.

Saying it shouldn't matter is exactly what I would expect from someone who does not know just how much it does matter.

You have 20% passive root/snare/stun/calm resist and at least 60% blind and 60% ubt resist... and you can instaremove all nano based roots/snares (except NT ones) with one click of a button

My MA outperforms my enforcer offensively and far outperforms my enforcer defensively. The only place my MA fails compared to my enforcer is survival in my ability to escape. Even then, it is only a matter of my enforcer being at capped runspeed while my MA is not.

I would view an MA swapping for SA/AS and having -2000 or more init debuffing and several on-demand stuns along with attacks that only check 50% def just as problematic as an enforcer using 1he/1hb paired with Mongo Rage to land all his perks on a target.

[sultryvoltron]

I would view an MA swapping for SA/AS and having -2000 or more init debuffing and several on-demand stuns along with attacks that only check 50% def just as problematic as an enforcer using 1he/1hb paired with Mongo Rage to land all his perks on a target.

And then we come back to the real world and we realize that it's not as problematic unless you're dueling.

[Kopecz]

Please keep in mind that this thread is dedicated to the problem of 1hb/1he enfs. The rest of us who only use one weapon line, 3 of which don't include stuns or init debuffs, suffer the same problems as keepers do.

[Gatester]

And then we come back to the real world and we realize that it's not as problematic unless you're dueling.

The exact same thing can be said for the 1he/1hb enforcer alpha. It fails quite often in mass pvp thanks to blockers, reflects, and heals I assure you. In these cases its DPM or debuffs that work most effectively, which is a strength of my shade, MA, and MP, not my enforcer.

My MA and shade have killed (in this real world you refer to) a lot more people than my enforcer at tower wars, and my MP causes a lot more people to die using a combination of remod and strong debuffs. Any viable complaints against the enforcer alpha would lie solely in small encounters or duel situations. In the same way AS/SA hotswaps, AS/FA combinations, AS pistol+pistol perks, LE nukes, and massive init debuffs+stuns are all comparible issues that take place mostly in the same situations.

Admit they are all overpowered, and that many professions use these tactics, or admit that none are. You cannot pick out only one when it so obviously is the one effecting you the most.

yer enfs have such low AR, i feel for you all

If you have no argument then why bother replying? Trying to sarcastically remark on an issue because you have no experience with the issue does not help your claims.

[sultryvoltron]

The exact same thing can be said for the 1he/1hb enforcer alpha. It fails quite often in mass pvp thanks to blockers, reflects, and heals I assure you. In these cases its DPM or debuffs that work most effectively, which is a strength of my shade, MA, and MP, not my enforcer.

My MA and shade have killed (in this real world you refer to) a lot more people than my enforcer at tower wars, and my MP causes a lot more people to die using a combination of remod and strong debuffs. Any viable complaints against the enforcer alpha would lie solely in small encounters or duel situations. In the same way AS/SA hotswaps, AS/FA combinations, AS pistol+pistol perks, LE nukes, and massive init debuffs+stuns are all comparible issues that take place mostly in the same situations.

Admit they are all overpowered, and that many professions use these tactics, or admit that none are. You cannot pick out only one when it so obviously is the one effecting you the most.

I dislike tower wars, especially on RK1 at TL7. PvP balance shouldn't take AS zerg wars into consideration. They're essentially already balanced profession wise, assuming fairly even size on each side. Why are we talking about tower wars?

AS/SA hotswaps are defendable. AS/FA combonations are easily defended against. AS Pistol+pistol perks are easily to outheal. LE nukes are retarded and everybody agrees to that. Massive init debuffs+stuns cannot be defended against by anyone, especially when evade profs can be perked by Enfos.

[RaveDeath]

you forgot the two ai perks that check aao twice (so +3k ar from mr)

Devastating Blow + SA + Dimach is likely to be 90% of a fixer's hp alone unless they are in an hp setup. The AoE stun is gonna take another little chunk of hp away. And they can land all this on a fixer through DoF without Mongo Rage.

It's just 3.3k-ish AR to perk fixer with that 50% check perk through dof. So, no proc, mongo rage or any other circumstantial BS.

I counted that in.

I almost killed one once, but i think he was afk...

Is this a legitimate subject? Or, did Mountaingoat make this as a troll?

I recently went 1he/1hb again, it is OP but this thread overall is more or less the same sad repition of false facts.

[Cut out]

If anything, you all should realize that without the overpowered aspects of the enforcer profession it would be an entirely unplayable profession in pvp. That is a major issue that a lot of people ignore, and is why things like LE nukes before DM were actually necessary. Do you guys remember NT's before LE in pvp? With the way things have changed, the only way to pvp is to be overpowered on one way or another.

This is a step more in the right direction. Don't agree with everything, but, I don't really want to get into this debate, as it started with PvMers complaining about what they don't have knowledge about from the start.

[Obtena]

This whole thread is just really stupid because if you care to review the perk and nano documentations and other hints being dropped by FC staff regarding re-balance, you can already start predicting where a 1HB/1HE setup will stand. I don't see it being all that popular after re-balance hits if they implement things as is.

I think few people realize just what kind of razor edge the enfo profession is between their OP'ed 1HB/1HE setup and the other options available to them, which are at best, ranking from average to absolute garbage.