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Thread: Weapon balance?

  1. #1

    Weapon balance?

    This is going to be a long post so if you don't like a wall of text, see tl;dr at the end.


    As we know there's thousands of different weapons in AO but only a small fraction of them is found useful for actual combat. When 80%-90% of weapons are useless junk, then something has gone wrong in the design process - expansions did make previous weapons obsolete and that's ok but there has been also huge amount of weapons that were useless right when they were added to the game (f.ex. many SL weapons have minimum damage 1 or they're insanely slow, which makes them useless in SL).

    Something is also wrong when a player (froob) starts using his end game weapon at level 60. He'll have to use the same weapon for the next 140 levels without any real weapon choices - this is one of the boring things in this game, why bother to level up when there's nothing left to achieve?

    Shouldn't we have incrementally better weapon choices becoming available as we level up? Weapon content that is tied to game's difficulty? Weapon content where all weapons are useful at some point of the game? Weapon content that supports sandbox gameplay style ie. there would be good weapon choices in all game areas so that it doesn't matter a lot what path the player takes on when he's levelling up his character?

    So I suggest total rewamp to weapons - it's lots of work but if done right, it would make AO a lot better gameplay wise. For starters I made this diagram where I placed different weapon choices into tiers (columns) and separated them by different expansions (rows). The picture doesn't show current situation but rather a situation that could be achieved through balancing process (not the only possible way to do this). Also the diagram is meant to show one weapon type and how each type progresses throughout the game, it doesn't mean that all weapons should be equal - there should be different weapon damage between professions and between melee/ranged but all weapon groups should follow the same progress principals.

    The balancing process should change weapon damage, speed and special recharge values. Now in my diagram I've colored the weapon groups with green, yellow and red to represent the difficulty to use the weapon effectively:
    • Green group means weapons that froob with maximized init skill can use at full def with maximum attack speed.
    • Yellow are weapons that require maximized init skill and some items that buff init skill to reach weapon's max speed at aggdef bar's full def setting.
    • Red groups are weapons that require both maximized init skill and pretty much all init buffing items to reach weapon's maximum speed at full def.
    • making weapons require higher init skill gives a choice for player: do I want to have a weapon that's easy or hard to use at full def?
    • the weapon choice should be different when player is soloing, teaming, pveing, pvping etc.

    In current gameplay there way too many weapons that can be used at full def without any twinking effort. Make the init skill mean something! There should be weapons for all professions that would be impossible to use at full def but that would cause more damage at full agg than some other weapon that can be used at full def - this reason would make players team up more because if you want to go for max damage and that would mean to use weapon at full agg, then you'd be more vulnerable to received damage (less defense at full agg) and thus you might require more healing.

    Another thing is area difficulty and weapon rarity. Currently there are many weapon drops in difficult places (f.ex. SL catacombs) but those weapons are often useless. So the balance should look into this problem as well by changing hard to get weapons to be better than weapons found easier. New weapons should be added to various places to fill up the loot tables and to give reason for all professions to enter different encounters (for froobs to high-end RK raids and for expansion chars to APFs/Dreads etc). Some weapons could be changed to be levelling items, like turn spirit weapons, due to rarity of ql300 turn spirit weapons and since it's weapon class that froobs can use - they could twink their skills and level up the weapon stats.

    This process would turn some weapons to be worse than what they currently are so some players might get upset, but overally the weapon balancing would benefit us more in the long run by making the content more fun and giving players more goals to achieve.


    tl;dr Weapons should be balanced by making all useless weapons useful and by balancing the weapon stats. See diagram and discuss.
    [220/30/70] Fixer, [199/24] Shade, [150/20] Trader, [150/19] Crat, [136] Fixer, [71/6]Agent, [60/6]Enforcer + bunch of other alts

  2. #2
    Agree with this 100%, its lame some professions only get to see 2-3 different weapons from lvl 1 to 220. CoH weapons also need a nerf.

    I would also like to see most weapons drop the high min damage and trade it for higher max, make AC matter again.

  3. #3
    wow, nice discussion. agree 100%, liked the weap/tier diagram. good argument.

    With incomign rebalance changes, and major reduction in -init buffs, should be a reliable method to limit/enhance weapon damage.

  4. #4
    CoH weapons need to go. Crap that can be twinked on relatively early and never made better for the rest of the toon's life is pretty meh.

    LE brought a wide range of weapons but that horrible 1-300 scaling made the lower end absolutely worthless. Few of them are useful unless they're fully upgraded to MK5/6 making the in-between versions pretty crappy (even if they look really cool).

    There needs to be less this-weapon-is-king and more variety. Situational weapons would be nice, but "support" profs would suffer due to low weapon scores and inability to hotswap.
    Waiting for a cure.

  5. #5
    Even though you all have a point. Don't destroy twinking. Many people play the game for it's flawed nature. That is what keeps them here, the flaws.

    Careful with the streamlining.

    We don't want World of Anarchy Warcraft Online.

  6. #6
    awww, but i wanted an orc soldier shaman specialised in leatherworking and blacksmithing.

    but yeah, more choice of weapons depending on the situation would be fun, as long as it doesn't result into spending a week twinking on one gun, do an encounter and then retwink again for another....
    Freedom or death!
    Anything then being an Omni Tek Corporate slave!

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  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by omegahealer View Post
    awww, but i wanted an orc soldier shaman specialised in leatherworking and blacksmithing.

    but yeah, more choice of weapons depending on the situation would be fun, as long as it doesn't result into spending a week twinking on one gun, do an encounter and then retwink again for another....
    Let's compromise, DeathKeeper with Mechanical Engineering and Herbalism?

    ---

    Upgrading the existing database items, weapons, is probably what they are doing to some degree, which would make me think they would upgrade weapons too as they go.

    Remember how they had one FWM with tier armor, before and after shots? Maybe they are upgrading that too. Recycling so to speak.
    Last edited by Marketplace; Sep 15th, 2011 at 08:42:15.

  8. #8
    Very good suggestion.
    General of First Order

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Mostadio View Post
    CoH weapons need to go. Crap that can be twinked on relatively early and never made better for the rest of the toon's life is pretty meh.

    LE brought a wide range of weapons but that horrible 1-300 scaling made the lower end absolutely worthless. Few of them are useful unless they're fully upgraded to MK5/6 making the in-between versions pretty crappy (even if they look really cool).

    There needs to be less this-weapon-is-king and more variety. Situational weapons would be nice, but "support" profs would suffer due to low weapon scores and inability to hotswap.
    Actually no... CoH weapons don't need to go anywhere, we just need more alternatives and not all of them need to absolutely require having a 220 or resourceful friends to get them.
    ----------------------------
    Showing why AO forum is not to be trusted - on S10 inflation

    Quote Originally Posted by Raggy View Post
    Multiple players in my org can make 200-300m maybe even 400m depending on lucky drops in 2 hours of farming the place. If you cannot see this as being an issue, then I don't know how to help you.

  10. #10
    Personally I think weapon balance has to go even further.

    It needs to be moved from this idea that unless you can cap everything about it (weapon speed in full def, special speeds etc) that its no good.

    Bring in some big heavy hitters that deal comparable damage but will never get that fast but gain from stuff like crit, bring in some really light hitters that attack real fast.

    Sort out a difference between dual wielding and 2 handed weapons and such so theres some more balance there.

    Make specials more special by limiting their use a lot more (making it harder for some to get specials down to the fast rates the specialists should have) and so on.

    The current system of only introducing/using 1/1 weapons with high min damage and capped specials has sort of taken all thought out of builds...

    I remember one time choosing weapons took some thought in balancing out their speed/specials and damage.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Marketplace View Post
    Even though you all have a point. Don't destroy twinking. Many people play the game for it's flawed nature. That is what keeps them here, the flaws.

    Careful with the streamlining.

    We don't want World of Anarchy Warcraft Online.
    Twinking is essential part of Anarchy Online experience and it should always be part of the game.

    Personally I think S7 weapons were a step into wrong direction since those weapons have such low requirements. I mean why put skill requirements which can be meet at level 60 to weapons that you get from 151+ instance??? And it doesn't seem to be difficult to wear profession's best weapons at maximum level - easy to hotswap I guess... Should it be made more difficult to put on those weapons or make it more difficult to cap their specials?

    Quote Originally Posted by omegahealer View Post
    but yeah, more choice of weapons depending on the situation would be fun, as long as it doesn't result into spending a week twinking on one gun, do an encounter and then retwink again for another....
    There's items that let you change your damage type... though no-one uses them

    Quote Originally Posted by Xenotric View Post
    Personally I think weapon balance has to go even further.

    It needs to be moved from this idea that unless you can cap everything about it (weapon speed in full def, special speeds etc) that its no good.

    Bring in some big heavy hitters that deal comparable damage but will never get that fast but gain from stuff like crit, bring in some really light hitters that attack real fast.

    Sort out a difference between dual wielding and 2 handed weapons and such so theres some more balance there.

    Make specials more special by limiting their use a lot more (making it harder for some to get specials down to the fast rates the specialists should have) and so on.

    The current system of only introducing/using 1/1 weapons with high min damage and capped specials has sort of taken all thought out of builds...

    I remember one time choosing weapons took some thought in balancing out their speed/specials and damage.
    Good post. One such weapon in-game is Enhanced Queen Blade - it has massive damage but is difficult to cap in speed. Not an useful weapon since it has 1200 attack rating cap and it's slow even when capped the attack/recharge speeds. If this weapon and other similar weapons were tweaked/added, then we might see some different builds...
    [220/30/70] Fixer, [199/24] Shade, [150/20] Trader, [150/19] Crat, [136] Fixer, [71/6]Agent, [60/6]Enforcer + bunch of other alts

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Galilei View Post
    Good post. One such weapon in-game is Enhanced Queen Blade - it has massive damage but is difficult to cap in speed. Not an useful weapon since it has 1200 attack rating cap and it's slow even when capped the attack/recharge speeds. If this weapon and other similar weapons were tweaked/added, then we might see some different builds...
    EQB had its day and had its speed capped because it was horribly OP, but you're on the right track.. just a bad example Currently, just about everything used is capped at 1/1 at full def.. which makes full def the norm with little to no trade off except for 1 or 2 professions (ahmagad doctors who can't fill up their HP bar instantly with one push of a button?)
    Waiting for a cure.

  13. #13
    yeah I remember when the EQB was first getting used, it actually balanced out pretty nicely due to its base speeds, then they started making it easier and easier to speed up weapons to the point where they had to enfore a cap on it to balance it out.

    Of course nowadays if they removed the cap I dare say 1/1 would be possible and it'd be up there in the top damage still.

    I mean if they made it harder to get down past its forced cap without actually enforcing a cap it would be a great example.

    A slow weapon that does good damage, it keeps on par with the faster weapons due to the massive hits and the ability to temporarily speed it up with timed moves such as flurry of blows.

    Unfortunately I cannot see funcom putting the effort to make weapons along this line nor vocal players acceptance.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Marketplace View Post
    Even though you all have a point. Don't destroy twinking. Many people play the game for it's flawed nature. That is what keeps them here, the flaws.

    Careful with the streamlining.

    We don't want World of Anarchy Warcraft Online.
    You probably could make most weapons viable, and keep a few rare guns around as drops to twink into. And if there were fewer lvl lockouts and the MBS modifier were gone, there'd also be more reason to twink into higher skill lvls.
    Thor Mastablasta Hammersmith - Level 220, AI 30, LE 70 Clan Atrox Nano Technician - Setup
    The Red Brotherhood

    I'm a Nano-Technician, don't ever expect me to fight unbuffed, alone or fair.

    Means: about f'ing time :P
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  15. #15
    Actually i own one such item to change weapon type and it's just a horrible tradeskill with albatraum junk...
    Freedom or death!
    Anything then being an Omni Tek Corporate slave!

    Created 2005-11-16 (paid main that's all mine )
    Created 2005-02-03 (froobie)
    Created 2007-10-11 (second paid account because i wanted a freaking shade :P)

  16. #16
    Very nice analyze good Sir. Also its a bitch that players starting to play have really really **** weapons to go with. Shops sell total junk and its totally useless. That needs to be addressed real soon. Low level ppl need weapons that can take care of things and be able to buy em AT LEAST.
    "Death is only a change to be reincarnated in the recreation machine"
    -------------------

    I wonder which angel I'm born with. The good angel or the bad angel? Or if both, which did i forsaken?
    God.. help me..

  17. #17

    This took me long plz read lol

    I would also like to suggest taking off the Attack/Recharge time of the formula for weapon specials

    Today for flingshot [Wep Attack time (in seconds) x 16] - Fling shot skill/100
    Today for Burst [Wep Recharge time (in seconds) x 20] + BurstCycle/100 - Burst skill/25
    Today for Full Auto [Wep recharge (in seconds) x 40] + FullAutoCycle/100 - FullAuto skill/25

    This means a weapon like a shotgun or a flametrower 2/2, 2.5/2.5. Has a massive recharge time for weapon specials, hence rendering many "slow" weapons completely useless to a point noone will even consider them.

    My suggestion is simple, stop basing SpecAttack formula on weapon attack times and base it purely on "Recycle". This will allow a lot more room for weapon builds. Also add this stat to Weapon Description when you Shift+Click so newbies/and even old vets can have more performance feedback from the weapon.

    Quick example.
    Subject in question has 300 fling skill.
    Doom Bringer (FlameTrower)
    DmgType- Fire
    HeavyWeps- 550
    Flingshot- 350
    Attkspeed- 1.9
    Rechspeed- 2.4
    Dmg- 90 - 290(145)
    SpecAttk Recycle- 2000
    MBS- 800
    New Formula FlingCycle/100 - Fling skill/100) 2000/100 - 300/100= 20 - 3= 17 Sec fling recharge.
    Old Formula [Wep Attack time (in seconds) x 16] - Fling shot skill/100 = 32 - 3= 29 Sec Fling recharge.

    Now the pursose of this is not to have Weapon SpecAttack lowered in recycle, but to allow more playing around with Recycle/Weapon speed this will give more room for Devs, to try new combinations like mentioned above.

    Another quick example using FA

    Subject has 700 Burst, 600 FullAuto

    AK-47
    AssaultRifle 900
    Burst 600
    Full Auto 700
    Attkspeed- 1.5
    Rechspeed- 2.4
    BurstRecycle- 4500
    FARecycle- 7000
    Dmg-130-330(250)
    MBS- 1000
    Now with 2.4 RechSpeed the old formula would make this weapon have FA up the roof 2.4*40 +60s Recycle= 2min 36 sec.

    New formula would make this weapon
    Burst 4500/100 - 700/25= 45 - 28= 17 sec burst
    Fa 7000/100 - 600/25= 70 - 24 = 46 Ful Auto

    Now there you have it a "Slow weapon" With good dmg perhaps froob friendly. It probably took me more time thinking about this one then what it took to make SPB. :P

    Anyways this would be nice if implemented. It would take some time to adjust all weapon Recycles yes, but hey its a one time timesink that would make you able to play more with weapon stats configuration.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by seithan View Post
    Very nice analyze good Sir. Also its a bitch that players starting to play have really really **** weapons to go with. Shops sell total junk and its totally useless. That needs to be addressed real soon. Low level ppl need weapons that can take care of things and be able to buy em AT LEAST.
    IF the leveling areas for 10-25 is subway... why are their not viable, fun useful weaps there, albeit hard to get. Same for TOTW. SOM needs to have a total revamp because by the time you can kill their the weapons and items you get are not worth getting. Foremans needs same and COH too.

    There needs to be several more of these places with gear being placed as high drop rates to team required boss encounters.

    STOP ENDGAME CONTENT. I want starting encounters and mid-game encounters that are valid and fun. This game suffers from a high degree of freedom to move... but most of the world to move in is not worth exploring.

    Make all Hecklers in all zones lvl 300 and impossible to solo tank to decrease power lvling. Add starting and endgame content OPTIONS with valid loot that you actually want to fight everything to get.
    "Can I have some shoes?"

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by fortorn View Post
    SOM needs to have a total revamp because by the time you can kill their the weapons and items you get are not worth getting. Foremans needs same and COH too.
    Sorry but that's complete BS. SoM has gotten a revamp long ago, it's just you that never went there post patch.

  20. #20
    The problem with SoM is that people can get their higher level friends to kill everything they need in there for it, which ruins the instance and makes it just a hoop to jump through instead of an interesting challenge. The content itself is pretty good, though it's a bit linear and lacking some storyline.
    Awwww muffin, need a tissue?

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