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Thread: DB 3 floor 2

  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Gimpynoob View Post
    The "PROBLEM" in AO. As soon as someone figures out the ideal "insert something here" everything becomes easy. Because everything is completly predictable in this game.

    Someone once said that the success of the "Monopoly" game was due to the fact that if you win you can brag about your superior strategic thinking and if you loose you can always blame it on bad luck.
    Haha idk who said that, but its so true.

    But to be honest, any MMO is predictable, it just lacks the randomness. I think one solution may be to design dungeons randomly, and balance professions correctly (i.e you dont just need a crat+doc to do everything). Everytime you go into an instance, the boss' toolset changes. It could simply be a set of 5 powers, and you dont know what will come up. They could even add a new toolset each month or so. We get more powerful, why shouldnt the dustbrigade?

    So, maybe one day you go inside the machine, and now aune is fearing, hope you brought a keeper with you. The next she is casting some nasty debuffs which she needs to be NSD or drained in order to stop. In another, she might hit really fast and really hard, but have low AR, making AR drains and an evade based tank crucial here. Another she could have a huge reflect, in which an engis -reflect aura, a doctors epsilon purge, NT nukes, or a trader (BR work in pvm?) to attack her.

    The idea is you make a team, then you go in, but you dont know what to expect. So sometimes it might be easy, because you got the right team, other times you might have to think a little or focus a little harder.

    Now ofc, instead of inviting MPs or keepers or traders when necessary, the team would rather reform until they get the boss-type they want. Or they would have just two people go in, then find out what professions they need. One way around this would be to force players to complete it. They cant do that instance again for a long time unless they do it with a subset of the original team (but NOT a superset). but this would really cause more anger than anything, unfortunately.
    Lilkueg 220/26/6x Opifex Shade
    Kuegen 211/11 Atrox Enforcer
    And Many More!

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Kuegen View Post
    but this would really cause more anger than anything, unfortunately.
    Of course it would, because it's a terrible idea.

    Instead of making PVM a lottery that you may or may not win regardless of team composition, FC should be making the underdog professions competitive.
    I am wiser than any god or scientist, for I have squared the circle and cubed Earth's sphere, thus I have created 4 simultaneous separate 24 hour days within a 4-corner (as in a 4-corner classroom) rotation of Earth. See for yourself the absolute proof.

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by drainbamage View Post
    Of course it would, because it's a terrible idea.

    Instead of making PVM a lottery that you may or may not win regardless of team composition, FC should be making the underdog professions competitive.
    No its not. In a realistic scenario you dont know what will come at you. Instances shouldnt be a dull grind. My suggestion wasn't to bring some kind of balance, as you implied. It was to make instances less monotonous, and more realistic. Only a fool would use the same tactics after a defeat. And its not a lottery, you could win either way, just l2p, and realize that every instance isnt going to be exactly the same.

    Oh, you cant kill everything ez mode in this game? Sometimes skill doesnt matter? boohoo, get over it.
    Lilkueg 220/26/6x Opifex Shade
    Kuegen 211/11 Atrox Enforcer
    And Many More!

  4. #64
    If you enjoy failing instances so much why don't you just use /terminate and let the rest of us grind out the instances as we please.
    This was what I was wearing. Tell me I asked for it

    Quote Originally Posted by Marinegent View Post
    Soldier reflects just flat out need to be much stronger all the time (70%~ at level 220 at all times...)
    Quote Originally Posted by shadowgod View Post
    the day our pets last forever, like yours, is the day your reqs will be lowered.
    Quote Originally Posted by Obtena View Post
    To be fair, you are lucky the mods are as forgiving as they are.
    Quote Originally Posted by Obtena View Post
    your an idiot



  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by MassDebater View Post
    Do it for successfully for 20minutes straight and you tend to notice when either side of you is instakill and then you get raped instantly by flames.

    Instance is a complete abortion. Just delete the second level and redesign it completely.
    im not the one complaining.
    Lilkueg 220/26/6x Opifex Shade
    Kuegen 211/11 Atrox Enforcer
    And Many More!

  6. #66
    You're the one who suggested random mechanics added to instances to make them more about luck that equipment.

    So like I said, if you want that, use terminate when you feel like dying, and let the rest of us continue to grind out instances.
    Last edited by MassDebater; Apr 23rd, 2012 at 05:56:34.
    This was what I was wearing. Tell me I asked for it

    Quote Originally Posted by Marinegent View Post
    Soldier reflects just flat out need to be much stronger all the time (70%~ at level 220 at all times...)
    Quote Originally Posted by shadowgod View Post
    the day our pets last forever, like yours, is the day your reqs will be lowered.
    Quote Originally Posted by Obtena View Post
    To be fair, you are lucky the mods are as forgiving as they are.
    Quote Originally Posted by Obtena View Post
    your an idiot



  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by MassDebater View Post
    Your the one who suggested random mechanics added to instances to make them more about luck that equipment.

    So like I said, if you want that, use terminate when you feel like dying, and let the rest of us continue to grind out instances.
    Theres a few things wrong with these statements. First, I never made it about luck, you are. Its about being able to adapt to certain scenarios, if you can only fight in one given scenario, then you need to l2p, its not "luck".

    Second, even if winning were based on luck, terminating would be an action I would choose to do. I'm suggesting instances that vary, not because I want to die, but because I want them to vary. Your attempt at a satirical comment makes no sense, try again.
    Lilkueg 220/26/6x Opifex Shade
    Kuegen 211/11 Atrox Enforcer
    And Many More!

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Kuegen View Post
    But to be honest, any MMO is predictable, it just lacks the randomness. I think one solution may be to design dungeons randomly,

    Call it want you want. It's retarded.
    This was what I was wearing. Tell me I asked for it

    Quote Originally Posted by Marinegent View Post
    Soldier reflects just flat out need to be much stronger all the time (70%~ at level 220 at all times...)
    Quote Originally Posted by shadowgod View Post
    the day our pets last forever, like yours, is the day your reqs will be lowered.
    Quote Originally Posted by Obtena View Post
    To be fair, you are lucky the mods are as forgiving as they are.
    Quote Originally Posted by Obtena View Post
    your an idiot



  9. #69
    The idea is to make instances have more variety. Theres some notion that everything should be so brainless and predictable, and that instances have no chance of being fun so lets just keep them as easy as they are now.

    When you are PvPing, for the most part, your tactics vary from profession. Its not that much of a difference, but you would fight an MP differently than an enfo, assuming you had to try to win.

    The dust brigade is perfectly capable of using several different tactics, but they tend to the same pattern. They seem kind of stupid dont they? Dying ALL the time, yet using the same tactics over and over.

    There are several ways to tackle this and I thought up of three.

    Two involve giving bosses a large set of tactics from which they would choose a subset of. They can be chosen randomly (as perhaps a card game would work), or they can be chosen specifically. In this case, I find the random choosing to be better. If they were chosen specifically, the tactics the boss has would depend on the professions in the team, and there would be some set of professions that would make the boss use really stupid tactics. Then we would simply be creating a different ez mod team. Instead of crat/doc/sol, it would be doc, MA, MP or something. The other thing wrong with dynamically chosen tactics is that friends who often run instances together would still experience the same dullness over and over. By making it random, you add a lot more fun to the experience. Will it be a tough encounter where you hang by a thread, or will it this time be a piece of cake?

    Second is to make instances harder everytime they are done, as if bosses learn from their mistakes. Or perhaps the boss simply switched tactics based on what kind of team kill him/her last. "Ahh that stupid MP kept stopping my nukes! Ill beef up my NR, I didnt really need this powerful of a weapon anyway..." Code wise I think this is much harder. And it could be tricky with all these instances, but there are ways to work around that.

    Any of these would liven up instances at least a little. Personally I would like the randomish implementation to appear in some new dungeon so we can check it out 1/8 instances annoying you surely isnt that bad.
    Lilkueg 220/26/6x Opifex Shade
    Kuegen 211/11 Atrox Enforcer
    And Many More!

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Kuegen View Post
    The idea is to make instances have more variety. Theres some notion that everything should be so brainless and predictable, and that instances have no chance of being fun so lets just keep them as easy as they are now.
    Right, there's only two options: random bullcrap, or easymode. No other possibility exists.
    I am wiser than any god or scientist, for I have squared the circle and cubed Earth's sphere, thus I have created 4 simultaneous separate 24 hour days within a 4-corner (as in a 4-corner classroom) rotation of Earth. See for yourself the absolute proof.

  11. #71
    Lets think minefields. Minefields are cute.

    Imagine that you are in charge of creating minefields. You design a minefield that has many powerful mines. But you use the same layout every time, with the same mines in the same relative positions and with the same paths through, you may even make a mistake or 2 and have a few flaws in the design that allow an enemy to disable most of the mines. You use that layout everytime you create a minefield. The obvious result is that your adversaries will learn the best way to disable or bypass it. It may be an awsome minefield on paper, but if the enemy already knows the minefield it becomes easy for him to cross. He will bring the right specialists equipped with the correct tools and with the exact number of people needed to get through. OTOH if you use different layouts and change them often, even if the minefield is not as powerful your adversary will have to bring more people and more variety in equipment to be able to succeeed. Minefields are just like that.

  12. #72
    There needs to be law against ridiculous analogies.

    You are operating under the false assumption that something has to be unpredictable to be difficult.
    I am wiser than any god or scientist, for I have squared the circle and cubed Earth's sphere, thus I have created 4 simultaneous separate 24 hour days within a 4-corner (as in a 4-corner classroom) rotation of Earth. See for yourself the absolute proof.

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by drainbamage View Post
    There needs to be law against ridiculous analogies.

    You are operating under the false assumption that something has to be unpredictable to be difficult.
    Actually that is a fair assumption. Predictable things are often easy. Sure, you can predict that you will die, but then its not a contest of wit or strategy, but simply of power. Lack of the knowledge of whats to come is the challenge. Also, you are under the assumption that because you say something, its true ;o
    Lilkueg 220/26/6x Opifex Shade
    Kuegen 211/11 Atrox Enforcer
    And Many More!

  14. #74
    Difficulty needs to come in the form of either damage/hp of the boss or effects like reflects, NSds, debuffs, adds etc. Not: "oh crap this time aune now has an aoe fear, let's all leave and try to find a keeper, oh btw I'm kicking you because we have 6 members".
    This was what I was wearing. Tell me I asked for it

    Quote Originally Posted by Marinegent View Post
    Soldier reflects just flat out need to be much stronger all the time (70%~ at level 220 at all times...)
    Quote Originally Posted by shadowgod View Post
    the day our pets last forever, like yours, is the day your reqs will be lowered.
    Quote Originally Posted by Obtena View Post
    To be fair, you are lucky the mods are as forgiving as they are.
    Quote Originally Posted by Obtena View Post
    your an idiot



  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by Kuegen View Post
    Actually that is a fair assumption. Predictable things are often easy. Sure, you can predict that you will die, but then its not a contest of wit or strategy, but simply of power. Lack of the knowledge of whats to come is the challenge. Also, you are under the assumption that because you say something, its true ;o
    Getting rolled because the RNG happened to pick a gimmick profession you didn't bring along is not a challenge. And if it's still doable without that profession, then people will just keep going with the fab four. There are only two ways to ensure all professions will be desirable: make them all mandatory, or make them all competitive in one of the primary roles (tank/healer/damage dealer). Personally I think the latter is a better choice, since not being able to raid because you could only get 13 of the 14 professions is a bit lame.


    Oh and everything I say is true. Even when it's not.
    I am wiser than any god or scientist, for I have squared the circle and cubed Earth's sphere, thus I have created 4 simultaneous separate 24 hour days within a 4-corner (as in a 4-corner classroom) rotation of Earth. See for yourself the absolute proof.

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by MassDebater View Post
    Difficulty needs to come in the form of either damage/hp of the boss or effects like reflects, NSds, debuffs, adds etc. Not: "oh crap this time aune now has an aoe fear, let's all leave and try to find a keeper, oh btw I'm kicking you because we have 6 members".
    Because AoE fear actually kills people. Like I said, L2p. And there could easily be a mechanic in place to prevent teams from reforming. (didn't i mention that?). Everything you listed does not create a challenge but rather a pattern you memorize. "Oh, here comes the NSD, coon up" , "Oh, aoe nuke? ill stand a bit back" , "Oh reflects? We got an NT? no? EP landing? oh well." , "oh lookie and hp bar PUSH DD". Anyways, create a pattern impossible to memorize, and you're always on your toes. Or, create content at a faster rate, with less need to farm each one.

    Quote Originally Posted by drainbamage View Post
    Getting rolled because the RNG happened to pick a gimmick profession you didn't bring along is not a challenge. There are only two ways to ensure all professions will be desirable: make them all mandatory, or make them all competitive in one of the primary roles (tank/healer/damage dealer). Personally I think the latter is a better choice, since not being able to raid because you could only get 13 of the 14 professions is a bit lame.


    Oh and everything I say is true. Even when it's not.
    Of course, in the post you quoted, I did not mention "random" at all. Unpredictability != randomness. However, if you want something to be unpredictable in a simulated environment, there may have to be some random aspect. You also assumed that I was offering any intention to make classes "balanced" or to bring love to a certain profession. That is not the case. It's all about making dungeons/instances more interesting rather than the same old thing.


    Quote Originally Posted by drainbamage View Post
    And if it's still doable without that profession, then people will just keep going with the fab four.
    12man is doable without a keeper, but we still invite them anyway.
    Lilkueg 220/26/6x Opifex Shade
    Kuegen 211/11 Atrox Enforcer
    And Many More!

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by Kuegen View Post
    Of course, in the post you quoted, I did not mention "random" at all. Unpredictability != randomness. However, if you want something to be unpredictable in a simulated environment, there may have to be some random aspect. You also assumed that I was offering any intention to make classes "balanced" or to bring love to a certain profession. That is not the case. It's all about making dungeons/instances more interesting rather than the same old thing.
    So instead of making professions useful in their own right, you want to give them a chance that they might be useful for a single gimmick?
    12man is doable without a keeper, but we still invite them anyway.
    Yes, because it's predictable.
    If 12man had a 1/14 chance of requiring a keeper each time it reset, chances are nobody would bother with them and just deal with the occasional extra-hard run.

    In any case I'd be interested in seeing an example scenario from you about how this idea would actually work. What I suggest is simple, it has been done in multiple games already, and most importantly, it works. You're suggesting something that has never been successfully done to a company that has a skeleton crew trying to maintain and update a game that they don't even fully understand because it's so old and poorly documented.

    edit: And just to be clear, I'm not necessarily against fights being unpredictable, I'm against fights being more unpredictable as some kind of solution to many professions being undesirable.
    Last edited by drainbamage; Apr 22nd, 2012 at 01:27:34.
    I am wiser than any god or scientist, for I have squared the circle and cubed Earth's sphere, thus I have created 4 simultaneous separate 24 hour days within a 4-corner (as in a 4-corner classroom) rotation of Earth. See for yourself the absolute proof.

  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by drainbamage View Post
    edit: And just to be clear, I'm not necessarily against fights being unpredictable, I'm against fights being more unpredictable as some kind of solution to many professions being undesirable.

    Okay good, then no comment
    Lilkueg 220/26/6x Opifex Shade
    Kuegen 211/11 Atrox Enforcer
    And Many More!

  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by Kuegen View Post
    Because AoE fear actually kills people. Like I said, L2p. And there could easily be a mechanic in place to prevent teams from reforming. (didn't i mention that?). Everything you listed does not create a challenge but rather a pattern you memorize. "Oh, here comes the NSD, coon up" , "Oh, aoe nuke? ill stand a bit back" , "Oh reflects? We got an NT? no? EP landing? oh well." , "oh lookie and hp bar PUSH DD". Anyways, create a pattern impossible to memorize, and you're always on your toes. Or, create content at a faster rate, with less need to farm each one.


    Have you ever done DB2? I shouldn't have to ask someone who apparently has a 220 character but your stunning lack of knowledge forces me.

    Oh and yes, an aoe fear in DB2 will kill people.


    As for not being able to reform teams, sounds great, I've always got annoyed at people who LDd or had to leave or logged an alt or invited a friend. This should solve that nicely.
    This was what I was wearing. Tell me I asked for it

    Quote Originally Posted by Marinegent View Post
    Soldier reflects just flat out need to be much stronger all the time (70%~ at level 220 at all times...)
    Quote Originally Posted by shadowgod View Post
    the day our pets last forever, like yours, is the day your reqs will be lowered.
    Quote Originally Posted by Obtena View Post
    To be fair, you are lucky the mods are as forgiving as they are.
    Quote Originally Posted by Obtena View Post
    your an idiot



  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by MassDebater View Post
    Have you ever done DB2? I shouldn't have to ask someone who apparently has a 220 character but your stunning lack of knowledge forces me.

    Oh and yes, an aoe fear in DB2 will kill people.


    As for not being able to reform teams, sounds great, I've always got annoyed at people who LDd or had to leave or logged an alt or invited a friend. This should solve that nicely.
    Hahaha, I dont need to be feared to lag off
    Lilkueg 220/26/6x Opifex Shade
    Kuegen 211/11 Atrox Enforcer
    And Many More!

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