Friday with Means - October 28th, 2011 - Happy Halloween!

[Siyra]

That's rather dubious reasoning to me. I could ask how many people quit in frustration because they felt that they had to stay at 150 indefinitely. Parking your character and farming for credits does not seem like very compelling gameplay to me.

Granted, but in comparison it's much better then "progressing" while spending months farming money just to get the money together.

Yes, not everyone should get the greatest armour, it should take effort, the debate really is about how much effort is "enough". Some people seem to think it should take multiple months, this is in line with the older MMO style. The problem is - MMOs, games in general, gamers.. they've all changed. It can't be that way anymore, you can plainly see that AO is in dire straights, you think that's really only because of graphics?

I've been a pretty strong supporter for easier access to better gear for players that are new and/or poor, so I'm not sure what your point is here.

The point was that I don't think it should take months for some new player to get the gear they want - the post was not intended to imply that you did not agree but aimed more at those who think we should stick to the old ways where all problems in a MMO are solved by adding a grind.

[drainbamage]

Granted, but in comparison it's much better then "progressing" while spending months farming money just to get the money together.

It's "better" but still not "good". You're just exchanging a slow grind for a faster one, while causing economic issues on top of it.

Yes, not everyone should get the greatest armour, it should take effort, the debate really is about how much effort is "enough". Some people seem to think it should take multiple months, this is in line with the older MMO style. The problem is - MMOs, games in general, gamers.. they've all changed. It can't be that way anymore, you can plainly see that AO is in dire straights, you think that's really only because of graphics?

Personally I think it should be more about skill and brains than how much time you spend glued to a chair. I think the new instances have been a step in the right direction. They're not incredibly complex or anything, but there's an element of skill involved you don't see in older fights.

Means and co. have made some unpopular decisions but I do think they know what they are doing. And I think that temporary problems are worth it if they lead to better things down the road, even if it costs them some subscriptions in the short term.

The point was that I don't think it should take months for some new player to get the gear they want - the post was not intended to imply that you did not agree but aimed more at those who think we should stick to the old ways where all problems in a MMO are solved by adding a grind.

I agree with you. Grinding is tolerable in small quantities, but it gets old fast when most of a game consists of repetitive actions for miniscule rewards.

[Chrys]

Well but that's the thing, people always complain it's overpriced. I've heard people say that for a bottle of Pepsi.

The price increase is due to the demand increase, not the overal credit supply.

@drainbamage: I believe it is quite easy enough to get to S10 and be competative therein in order to become part of the subset generating money. Granted not every newb could get there, but it was certainly a better motivator to keep playing then it is now.

If a newb (not an alt, a newb) is playing the game and wants to know how to afford some of the greatest armour out there being told that it's only really useful at level 150+ and then once you get there you can get the money for it yourself fairly quickly chances are they'd stick around to check it out.

That's certainly more motivation to me to keep playing then: Oh ya... there's no point in striving for that because you'll have to grind out months of stuff just to get enough money to buy one thing. And no whining cause "thats the proper way to play".

Newsflash: MMOs are built so you can't get the uberest gear in the shortest amount of time. The length of time to fully deck out your character is an essential component to keeping people playing. But a new player CAN find some gems out there that don't cost billions, they just need to learn to dig into the database a little and ask questions. I think that's one of AO's strongest attractions. Sure I know the oft retort is "well gimps don't get teams" but the truth is that AO is a combination of knowledge, skill, AND gear, and gear in PVE is really not as important as some people seem to think it is... Usually the more importance people place on gear, the more likely they are trying to overcome deficits in knowledge and skill. These last two traits are freely acquired.

[Siyra]

Newsflash: MMOs are built so you can't get the uberest gear in the shortest amount of time.

Well duh. I got nothing against making people work, but even with S10 bounties in place and (using a reasonable amount of money, keeping in mind that not everyone can/does play the game for hours and hours every day) assuming someone could get even 20m a day there it'd take them a month to afford an RBP.

And that's just for an RBP, not for a full set of Ql 300 CSS or some other stuff.

Why is a month of work to short a time to get one item? Where in the MMO builders kit or rule book does it say that it has to take multiple months to get something? You want people to stick around? How 'bout make the game fun and interesting, rather then just hang a carrot in front of someone and tell them to go fetch.

[Chrys]

Well duh. I got nothing against making people work, but even with S10 bounties in place and (using a reasonable amount of money, keeping in mind that not everyone can/does play the game for hours and hours every day) assuming someone could get even 20m a day there it'd take them a month to afford an RBP.

And that's just for an RBP, not for a full set of Ql 300 CSS or some other stuff.

Why is a month of work to short a time to get one item? Where in the MMO builders kit or rule book does it say that it has to take multiple months to get something? You want people to stick around? How 'bout make the game fun and interesting, rather then just hang a carrot in front of someone and tell them to go fetch.

It's a tradeoff, you want a sophisticated game with a ginormous item database with literally thousands of items, you're going to end up with a similar item grind. That's one of AO's "features". You want a simpler game with smaller grinds, you pay for that in diversity. Of course FC has to build in a system of scarcity for the "best" items. And with trillions of credits flying around after 10 years, the most in-demand and hard-to-get items fetch the prices they do. I remember building my first full set of CC. It took about 2 months. That's actually not that bad a deal.

I'm playing Global Agenda, a game that's been criticised for being nothing more than Tribes MMO and doesn't have nearly the same amount of items as AO, and it's taken me the same amount of time to build 1 toon casually (because you don't need multiple sets of gear for the same slots and tons of "setup" gear alongside) with a paid booster (double rewards from missions). So there you go.

[Siyra]

Well my idea of a good MMO differs. I don't think it should take months of effort to build a toon, and I don't think a game loses sophistication just because it's item DB isn't thousands of items long.

Seeing as most people don't even tap into any significant percent of the DB, just striving for the same stuff as everyone else, I hardly think the fact that there is options lends people to use them.

Rift (the MMO I'm playing) has all of two choices for (craftable) top end armour for Warriors, that's not much choice indeed (there is more choices just not craftable). And yet people still go for one or the other and then continue to play the game. Does it make choices easier? Sure. But then so does: AI, Ofab or DB.

Making them harder/longer to get doesn't make the game more sophisticated or better. Also, taking months to gear a toon completely != taking months to get one item.

[lainbr]

Very few things have scared away more newcomers from this game then having to compete against 5 concealed Agents for FRN from Ely dryads.

I could farm 3 T1 embryos in 10 minutes, sell then in an instant for 5m each and buy that FRN. Thats using ql 170ish carbonum, ql 100 impls at lvl 145+ with a cacodemon. Bought full Merlin armor (75m each piece), Shades of Luc (around 30m I think), 2 VTE (40m) and a T2 glyph for pants (40m) only farming then.

Yes, It was better than S10 farm. No train, no ppl to OD you. But then, these days came to end. Ppl had to survive through countless team missions, countless tokengun bags (face it, I got 2.5k tokens from missions, and after farming tokenbags I got 4k tokens only looting the single tokens from mobs). I really dont call then happy days.

And you know what? We came back to these non happy days. The problem? Nobody buys tokenguns todays too. Enjoy the CRU farm

[Joralf]

Well duh. I got nothing against making people work, but even with S10 bounties in place and (using a reasonable amount of money, keeping in mind that not everyone can/does play the game for hours and hours every day) assuming someone could get even 20m a day there it'd take them a month to afford an RBP.

And that's just for an RBP, not for a full set of Ql 300 CSS or some other stuff.

Why is a month of work to short a time to get one item? Where in the MMO builders kit or rule book does it say that it has to take multiple months to get something? You want people to stick around? How 'bout make the game fun and interesting, rather then just hang a carrot in front of someone and tell them to go fetch.

I really don't agree with you that it should take people less than a month to be able to buy items (RBP) that have a low drop rate and drops form 1 mob (maybe 2 if collector drops it). If this item was needed to have a functional character sure, but it really isn't that important to any prof. This item, along with the AI armor are example of items that has viable alternatives for any player.

If these items where available to any player at any time, the twinking aspect of the game would sort of be gone (in my eyes at least), because everyone could spend a short amount of time to acquire the necessary items to make any twink at any level. A twink should take time to make and hopefully be unique.

A full set of AI armor is a reason for me to continue to play/gear up my characters once they hit 220. I don't want the game to be done once I have finished the grid to 220. I want to have a goal for my character after I get that last ding. How people fulfill that goal is of course up to them, be it farming s10 or doing city raids, but there should be some time invested in it.

[Tanisthonus]

This item, along with the AI armor are example of items that has viable alternatives for any player.

Alright, I'll admit my previous responses to this thread have just been throwing tidbits out there for no good reason, mostly, but this is a legitimate question.

Like what? I know OFAB, but OFAB is all VP, and I'm not really a PVPer. I know there's the PVP Daily, and that is easy, but is that it? Just grind VP to get my armor? Is Tier 3 any good anymore? With how easy to get Miy's is, I feel it's not a real choice, just one to hold someone over.

My biggest worry in this game is being too gimp to actually help with anything. I'm already an MP, what people have said is one of the least wanted in a team prof. If I don't have the equipment to show my worth, what chance do I have to get a team?

I don't want to be the best, most uberest evar, I just want to be good enough to contribue, so I can see all the cool stuff the game has to offer.

[Mastablasta]

Gear really has very little to say compared to skill at playing, in my opinion. Some of the most decked out people I've teamed with over the years have also been the most noob, thinking that their gear would do all the work for them.

Most of the "most wanted" crap is also based on prejudice and false assumptions. It's the infestation of stupid that's been going on the last couple years. Dunno how to counter it, other than rebalance. But that'll still bring its own new FOTM profs or baseless ideas about who's gimp and who's not.

[Tanisthonus]

Gear really has very little to say compared to skill at playing, in my opinion. Some of the most decked out people I've teamed with over the years have also been the most noob, thinking that their gear would do all the work for them.

Most of the "most wanted" crap is also based on prejudice and false assumptions. It's the infestation of stupid that's been going on the last couple years. Dunno how to counter it, other than rebalance. But that'll still bring its own new FOTM profs or baseless ideas about who's gimp and who's not.

So I just need to hope I don't suck and people are just being polite when I do get groups, like with org and stuff? Awesome.

Not being sarcastic or anything, it is a good boost in hope.

[Mastablasta]

Dunno, I've no idea how you do, but I recall that during AI expansion's heyday, good top tier MPs could be in the top 3 of DD'ers at endgame.
They weren't ever bad to have around for normal stuff either. Especially since now the forum is full of cries about how there's noone to team with, yet they still refuse to team some guy who might not be the "perfect" fit for the team, but it's at least another guy to join that will do all those things another person in a team does just by being there.

People don't need to be polite to invite you, they should just be pragmatic. Why NOT invite you? There's somebody better? Is there? If there is, why don't you start a team and invite him then or would they not join because /tell helpbot whois tanisthonus "OH NO MP"?
And if your org goes "you can't join, you're an MP" or along those lines, maybe you should find another org.

But yes, it's an infestation of stupid. An unwillingness to do anything that isn't the imagined optimal and always keep the options for being even better open. Although then I don't get why they don't invite the "gimps" and just kick when that perfect somebody shows up on LFT.

[Tanisthonus]

Dunno, I've no idea how you do, but I recall that during AI expansion's heyday, good top tier MPs could be in the top 3 of DD'ers at endgame.
They weren't ever bad to have around for normal stuff either. Especially since now the forum is full of cries about how there's noone to team with, yet they still refuse to team some guy who might not be the "perfect" fit for the team, but it's at least another guy to join that will do all those things another person in a team does just by being there.

People don't need to be polite to invite you, they should just be pragmatic. Why NOT invite you? There's somebody better? Is there? If there is, why don't you start a team and invite him then or would they not join because /tell helpbot whois tanisthonus "OH NO MP"?
And if your org goes "you can't join, you're an MP" or along those lines, maybe you should find another org.

But yes, it's an infestation of stupid. An unwillingness to do anything that isn't the imagined optimal and always keep the options for being even better open. Although then I don't get why they don't invite the "gimps" and just kick when that perfect somebody shows up on LFT.

When I mentioned polite, I meant after teaming with me. "Aw, this guy is really, poor fella'. Let's let him think he's useful." Or something like that, and then blacklisting me.

RE: My org, they're actually a great group, it's just a dwindling population, and a bad overlap in playtime. If I wasn't playing at ridiculous hours of the night, it wouldn't be such a problem, can only blame myself there.

Thanks for the talk, Masta. Maybe we should go kill stuff some time, haha!

[Mastablasta]

Anytime. I'm always up for doing stuff ^^

[Uaintseenme]

If I remove the disproportionately large credit reward from the area and you say you won't go back there then we know precisely what part of that "lowbie content" was important to you.

Does it actualy matter what your customers find important?
If they find something, ANYTHING important, then surely as the provider of a service, you cater to that important thing.

Otherwise you stop producing content for your customers and are instead only producing content for yourself.

[Mastablasta]

Does it actualy matter what your customers find important?
If they find something, ANYTHING important, then surely as the provider of a service, you cater to that important thing.

Otherwise you stop producing content for your customers and are instead only producing content for yourself.

So if 5 customers think that using a major exploit to get loads of x, then they should cater to those who enjoy exploits and make sure not to fix them? Or when hecklers dropped ingots, that was also important to a large number of people.

What I figure is that the idea behind such changes is that a healthy game is what customers as a whole find important. Not that there's one place where you can sploit things or get infinite credits for no effort or that one end of the level spectrum is greatly unbalanced in some people's eyes.

But maybe I'm wrong about that?

[Uaintseenme]

So if 5 customers think that using a major exploit to get loads of x, then they should cater to those who enjoy exploits and make sure not to fix them? Or when hecklers dropped ingots, that was also important to a large number of people.

What I figure is that the idea behind such changes is that a healthy game is what customers as a whole find important. Not that there's one place where you can sploit things or get infinite credits for no effort or that one end of the level spectrum is greatly unbalanced in some people's eyes.

But maybe I'm wrong about that?

yes, you are.

firstly, it is conssiderably more than "5 players"

secondly a "healthy game" would be awesome, unfortunately we dont and will not have a "healthy game" again. (and before someone says "oh the new engine..." no amount of extra shadows and ripples on water is going to allow AO to compete in the modern market).

Im not trying to be some doom sayer, the sky is not falling and its not the end of the world as we know it, i fully expect AO to run atleast a couple more years, but we will never see the kind of server heavy numbers we once had and finding people for anything more player intensive than a 2 team raid is unlikely to happen on any kind of regular occurance ever again.

At this point, if a "significant" number of the playerbase find something intresting then it doesnt matter what that something is, it should be capitalised on in order to keep those paying players active entertained and amused.

[Mastablasta]

yes, you are.

firstly, it is conssiderably more than "5 players"

secondly a "healthy game" would be awesome, unfortunately we dont and will not have a "healthy game" again. (and before someone says "oh the new engine..." no amount of extra shadows and ripples on water is going to allow AO to compete in the modern market).

Im not trying to be some doom sayer, the sky is not falling and its not the end of the world as we know it, i fully expect AO to run atleast a couple more years, but we will never see the kind of server heavy numbers we once had and finding people for anything more player intensive than a 2 team raid is unlikely to happen on any kind of regular occurance ever again.

At this point, if a "significant" number of the playerbase find something intresting then it doesnt matter what that something is, it should be capitalised on in order to keep those paying players active entertained and amused.

So, it's not something that is desirable to work towards, and the best solution is to escalate the situation further? Is that what you're saying. Not saying that you're any kind of doomsayer, just saying that if that's the only option out it's better to just call it quits and shut things down, because the moment you just open the floodgates, you've ended it already.

What, if anything, is the point of having a few people sit and farm sector 10 anyway? If that's the only thing keeping them active then there are a lot of other areas to look at. But then, that's not feasible either, because as you say, everything is dead a week after it's launched because you can farm it back to back and items drop at such a high rate that everyone has their loot in no time at all. So, the people farm credits because they want to buy loot that is rare and takes longer to get, and remove their credits, you remove their desire to play, because their goal was obviously not to play the parts of the game where you get loot. It is something else. But, what is that "something else"? When all we have is saying that there's noone doing BS and there's no city pvp and there are no tower wars, then obviously those people who are farming all this stuff aren't doing it for pvp, because then you'd have more pvp going on. They aren't doing it for pvm, because then you'd have more pvm going on. So, why are they doing it? Farming credits endlessly to buy gear for their characters that they don't use. I'm very confused about what's going on here.

[Siyra]

Farming credits endlessly to buy gear for their characters that they don't use. I'm very confused about what's going on here.

Some people like having things for the sake of it. They don't have to get use out of it. Like a picture hanging on a wall it cost you money and has no use other then to look at it and know you have it.

[Uaintseenme]

I never said everything was dead a week after its released.
Though thats not a terrible assesment.
Since the majority of new content does tend to be systematicly farmed by those who are able to farm it and then ignored by all but a few.

That in itself is a clear indication that, for WHATEVER reason, s10, being several years old at this point, was doing something right, it retained players, it gave people something to aim at and it kept them active.

I could care less what the magic ingredient is that kept this particular PF popular.
The fact that it WAS popular is all that concerns me, the poularity of s10 had a knock on effect across the rest of the board, it fed the mid level symb market, it fed the inf dyna loot market, it kept the mid level BS active (this in itself has become a unique occurance in AO as the only reliable and active BS level and was also possibly the only BS level where pvp and pvm players actively mixed in a pvp environment, on a mostly equal footing.).

I cant speak for rk1, but on rk2 a 220MBC costs the same now as it did pre Bounty-s10, an rbp costs the same as it did pre-bounty s10, infact, everythign costs the same now (or cheaper) than it did pre-bounty S10.
The only thing that has increased in price has been supple bots and that is not due to the exess amount of creds floating around, its to do with the LACK of supple bots.

As for giving up and shutting things down if your not going to try and make things better.
Well, you have been around long enough to know thats never going to happen, and i for one would rather have a population to interact with in a less than perfect game, than the perfect mmo with no one in it.

I suppose its a personal preference, to me,, an active playerbase IS better than striving for the impossible at the cost of your customers.